Strength and Doubling Damage

[dropblack]

I was wondering if someone could explain to me the purpose of this rule, specifically in regards to STR:

 

A character cannot more than double the Damage Classes of his base attack, no matter how many different methods he uses to add damage.

 

It seems to me that if someone with, say 100 STR, fights with a kitchen knife, he or she should be able to do more than 1d6+1 (4 DCs).

 

 

Am I missing something?

 

[ghost-angel]

Re: Strength and Doubling Damage

 

It's a balance thing really.

[GAZZA]

Re: Strength and Doubling Damage

 

Well, STR gives you one heck of a lot already, so allowing someone with 100 STR to only need to buy a 1 pip HKA and end up doing 7d6 killing damage is a bit much.

 

But if you want a "logical" reason, here's one: if the 100 STR guy tried to wield the knife at even a fraction of his true strength, he'd just break the knife in his enthusiasm. It's the same type of rule that limits how much damage you can do with a thrown object - you might be able to hurl a tennis ball with the full force of 100 STR, but you'll shred it in flight if you try.

 

Indeed, were HA not a limited form of STR, then the same limit ought to apply to normal damage weapons (and it does, for heroic campaigns).

[Mike W]

Re: Strength and Doubling Damage

 

Like the others said, I think play balance is a big factor. There is a general belief that STR is already underpriced as it is(and it really is). It doesn't need anything else making it even more useful.

 

But logically, this was build on as the "straw through a palm" rule. If you watch Mythbusters, they did an episode where they were trying to shoot straw through a palm tree and even though they got the straw going faster than any tornado or hurricane ever could, they couldn't shoot the straw through the palm because the straw simply wasn't strong enough. Same thing with damage cap rule on STR. Of course, in a superheroic game, the rule only applies to killing attacks.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Strength and Doubling Damage

 

Realistically, the additional damage from a knife after being hit by a being with 100 STR would be trivial in comparison. Even if the knife didn't break, the blunt trauma from the wielding fist would cause tremendous damage.

[bwdemon]

Re: Strength and Doubling Damage

 

Structural limits aside, there is a point where a bladed weapon simply won't do more damage by virtue of strength or speed of the slice. If you're really just attacking with the knife then the most damaging thing that can happen is the blade going in to the hilt and all the way through the target. If that is a small blade (1/2d6 HKA) then you won't be able to do more damage than that small blade can possibly accomplish (1d6+1 HKA) by virtue of the blade alone.

 

Before anyone complains about a 1d6+1 HKA not being able to kill a normal person, remember that hit locations are there if you want more realistic results.

 

If you want to model a character's strength damage in excess of the blade, then subtract the STR used to increase the HKA and go from there. So if a 60 STR character stabs someone with a kitchen knife at the full force of his strength (following through to use his whole strength, not just stopping when the hilt hits the target), it would cause 10d6 normal damage and 1d6+1 killing damage.

[The Main Man]

Re: Strength and Doubling Damage

 

And that, folks, is a Multiple Power Attack.

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: Strength and Doubling Damage

 

yeah, if you have a 100str and are using a kitchen knife, then drop the knife and hit someone. It will work better. It's both a balance thing and probably a genre convention from older editions

[GAZZA]

Re: Strength and Doubling Damage

 

yeah' date=' if you have a 100str and are using a kitchen knife, then drop the knife and hit someone. It will work better.[/quote']

... unless, of course, your target is an Automaton that Takes No STUN with 150 PD and ED but no resistant defences... then, by all means, use the knife.

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: Strength and Doubling Damage

 

... unless' date=' of course, your target is an Automaton that Takes No STUN with 150 PD and ED but no resistant defences... then, by all means, use the knife. [/quote']

 

in that case a normal guy with a gun is a credible threat

[Dust Raven]

Re: Strength and Doubling Damage

 

It seems to me that if someone with' date=' say 100 STR, fights with a kitchen knife, he or she should be able to do more than 1d6+1 (4 DCs).[/size']

 

 

Am I missing something?

 

Well, a character with 100 STR and a kitchen knife is a lot like a character with 20 STR and a plastic spoon. So they're punching you with a spoon in their hand, big deal.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Strength and Doubling Damage

 

... unless' date=' of course, your target is an Automaton that Takes No STUN with 150 PD and ED but no resistant defences... then, by all means, use the knife. [/quote']

Oh no! Not the Rubberbots again!

[Sean Waters]

Re: Strength and Doubling Damage

 

Like the others said, I think play balance is a big factor. There is a general belief that STR is already underpriced as it is(and it really is). It doesn't need anything else making it even more useful.

 

But logically, this was build on as the "straw through a palm" rule. If you watch Mythbusters, they did an episode where they were trying to shoot straw through a palm tree and even though they got the straw going faster than any tornado or hurricane ever could, they couldn't shoot the straw through the palm because the straw simply wasn't strong enough. Same thing with damage cap rule on STR. Of course, in a superheroic game, the rule only applies to killing attacks.

 

...so what you are saying is that if you attacked someone with piano wire....

 

I saw that one too: good episode.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Strength and Doubling Damage

 

To address the actual question though, answer me this: why should a punch from someone with 100 strength do any more damage than a punch from someone with 40 strength?

 

Damage from punches is all about your mass and the speed of your fist. Over and above a certain point, and 40 str would certainly be close to that point if not past it, more strength simply is not going to add damage to that sort of attack.

 

In Hero though, it does.

 

Why?

 

Well, them's the rules This is not reality, it is a game, both have rules, but the rules of reality are more real. Mind you the rules of games are more gamey. Some more than others.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Strength and Doubling Damage

 

I strongly disagree with the last poster. He is making a mockery of the whole thing.

 

The answer is that against anything that could not stand up to a 100STR punch, a kitchen knife is not going to matter, and against anything that could, a kitchen knife is not going to help.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Strength and Doubling Damage

 

No, no, no - it is because kitchen knives only work in kitchens, and there is not a chef out there with 100 STR (unless, possibly, he is made of titanium....)

[Sean Waters]

Re: Strength and Doubling Damage

 

For pity's sakes, someone else join in.....

[archermoo]

Re: Strength and Doubling Damage

 

For pity's sakes' date=' someone else join in.....[/quote']

 

No.

 

[bwdemon]

Re: Strength and Doubling Damage

 

To address the actual question though, answer me this: why should a punch from someone with 100 strength do any more damage than a punch from someone with 40 strength?

 

Damage from punches is all about your mass and the speed of your fist. Over and above a certain point, and 40 str would certainly be close to that point if not past it, more strength simply is not going to add damage to that sort of attack.

 

Heavyweights hit harder than lightweights, but lightweights throw much faster punches. The heavyweight's hands aren't significantly heavier when both are wearing those big red pillows on their hands, so the lightweight should hit harder by that analysis. They don't, though. So why is the bigger opponent's punch so much more damaging?

 

A punch contains the weight put behind the fist, not just the weight of itself. The more weight you can put behind it, the harder the punch. A huge guy who does nothing but poke his hand straight out from his shoulder might not hit as hard as a small guy who twists his hips to put his body weight into the punch. However, a big guy who puts his weight behind his punch is going to hit significantly harder than the small guy.

 

So haven't I just argued the mass * velocity thing again, but expanded on the mass used? Well, yes. I just don't think it's entirely representative, either. Part of me wants to look at mass as what you are capable of moving as opposed to the portion of your own mass that you are putting in motion. I'll explain why after this next paragraph...

 

The amateur (professional if we've got 'em) physicists here can talk about "power" and its components (Work / Time) and I think that's a great place to look. Wht I don't like is that instantaneous power can be expressed as Force * Velocity which works out to Mass * Velocity^2. I don't think that adequately reflects what is going on. If it did, then the speed of a punch would be largest determinant of power. That takes us back to the heavyweight/lightweight issue above.

 

That is why I think it is important to look at mass in terms of what you are pushing with a punch rather than what you have. Which might be what the equation does (I'm no physicist). Or it could be that what I'm looking for really is Power, Velocity really is that important, and the lightweight really does hit with greater power. Or maybe the speeds of the punches are relatively equal in comparison to the mass differences put to use.

 

Anyway, if mass is determined based on what you can move with a punch, instead of the weight behind it, then STR is the right determinant for damage. If not, then... well, it's based on comics and strong people hit harder.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Strength and Doubling Damage

 

To address the actual question though, answer me this: why should a punch from someone with 100 strength do any more damage than a punch from someone with 40 strength?

 

Damage from punches is all about your mass and the speed of your fist. Over and above a certain point, and 40 str would certainly be close to that point if not past it, more strength simply is not going to add damage to that sort of attack.

 

In Hero though, it does.

 

Why?

 

Other than what bwdemon said, there's also the element of cinematic physics. It's the same thing that causes Knockdown and Knockback.