spells and multi-power

[steph]

is it a good idea to use multi-power for spells? what is your opinion on that ? and magic system you use for your fantasy game............

ty in advance

stef

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: spells and multi-power

 

My major concern with Multipower-based magic is that the spells all tend towards the same level of AP. If your Multipower has room for, say, a 45 AP attack and a defensive spell, all the attack spells tend to be 45 AP. You never see a 3d6 Flash since it costs the same (or almost the same) to have a 9d6 Flash. You might see the occasional spell that uses the whole reserve, as an all-out attack option, but generally you get a lot of "max DC attack spells" leaving enough points available for whatever defense/misc spell the player wants up at virtually all times.

[ghost-angel]

Re: spells and multi-power

 

To alleviate some of Hugh's concerns (which are valid), I'd suggest requiring variable instead of ultra slots. The extra points required for that add up when you get to large numbers of spells.

 

Beyond that, I've had good experience with using Multipower Pools for magic in the past.

[Markdoc]

Re: spells and multi-power

 

To alleviate some of Hugh's concerns (which are valid), I'd suggest requiring variable instead of ultra slots. The extra points required for that add up when you get to large numbers of spells.

 

Beyond that, I've had good experience with using Multipower Pools for magic in the past.

 

I'd go the opposite way I use ultras for spell slots and define each spell as a distinct entity because it largely eliminates Hugh's concerns about spells all having the same AP.

 

As characters increase in levels, they don't boost the AP on the "searing hands" spell (for example), because that spell comes as a fixed quantity. If they want more oomph, it's easier buy another spell - and that way players end up with a mix of spells. This does not unduly penalise players since the ultra slots - especially with limitations piled on - are dirt cheap: often 1 or 2 points - and having ultra slots of different values gives the mage a lot of flexibility in combining slots, which the "5 slots all 40 AP" guy lacks.

 

As for Stephs' original question, I use multipowers for magic a lot and they work fine. It's an easy way to give players access to lots of spells without making the character overpowering.

 

cheers, Mark

[CourtFool]

Huh?

 

I am not sure I follow you, Markdoc. Are you saying that you design the spells and do not let the players design them?

[Markdoc]

Re: Huh?

 

I am not sure I follow you' date=' Markdoc. Are you saying that you design the spells and do not let the players design them?[/quote']

 

Yep. Players can certainly suggest ideas, but in general I design every spell used.

 

The exception is if the player wants a specific spell, then they can research and develop it (assuming they have the necessary skills and collect the necessary apparatus). This is quite a large exception, since most of the mages who have been played for any length of time eventually do acquire these skills and gear and develop their own "special" spells. Those become something valuable that they can trade to other mages for secrets or new spells, although often players like to keep newly-developed spells to themselves as their own "signature magic".

 

There's 4 reasons for this.

1) Game balance. It allows me to rule out the "megahexed, 1pip HKA, continous, uncontrollable, personal immunity spell" No spells unless I approve them, and that's final. I'm not trying to crush player's power or inventiveness (have a look at my Ultimate Grimoire, to see what I mean - there are some spells of Ultimate Destruction in there - just no really cheap "exploit" spells).

 

2) Flavour. By making each spell a specific item, it seems to contibute to the "magicky" feel and avoid the mage who has variable Flight, forcefield and energy blast slots and plays like a superhero. Something like "Evard's Tentacles of Forced Intrusion" has more flavour than a generic entangle + HKA: it's a specific spell. Likewise the players' arch-enemies are a darkness cult - the fact that they have lots of darkness spells is a bit of a giveaway, but also forces their mages to act in certain ways. It's a lot more flavoursome than every mage having some variant on flight, force field and energy blast.

 

3) Plot hooks. By restricting access to magic (and often by building that restriction into the game setting) it gives mages something to adventure for. Access to a specific spell or type of spell often drives player mages to places, or to do things, that are dangerous. In my current game the mage character (actually a spell-casting priest) belongs to a sun/king/fire cult, which gives him access to spells that fall into that area: fire spells, mental/domination type spells. He really, really wanted a healing spell, so he sucked up to a cult he knew teaches that spell, trying to get accepted as a member and so on, to learn their "cult secrets"*

 

4) Game control - a bit difference from Game balance, controlling access to spells allow me to control how the game develops. Since the players have no on-board healing, that allowed me to introduce supporting characters who the players had reason to interact with (various healers) and allowed me to throttle back the combat a bit - the players are less keen to solve every problem by hitting it with pointy bits of metal, without ready access to healing. Since the players do not yet have access to mass flight, they go everywhere by walking, sailing or riding. Those are spells that DO exist in game and one day, they may gain access to them - but that'll be when it helps the story, not hinders it.

 

cheers, Mark

 

* Except he was such a jerk, they only accepted him as a lay member and wouldn't initiate him: his attitude was "Why won't you teach me? I know you only met me a couple of days ago, and I belong to a militant cult with a bad reputation, but I'm a player character!"

 

When that failed he convinced the thief to sneak into the temple and try to steal their spellbooks - the thief got into the backrooms, opened their locked cupboard, grabbed the big leather book and made off with it - only to discover later that he had stolen their accounts

[CourtFool]

Re: spells and multi-power

 

That really explains a lot. Thank you for clarifying. How do you handle characters what want to start off with Finby's Floating Flotilla of Flying and Harrod's Healing Hand?

 

Also, do you allow Variable Power Pools at all?

[Hyper-Man]

Re: spells and multi-power

 

I like both of those ideas.

Having a preset list of known spell types for character's to learn is a common sense idea from most fantasy source material. However, the idea of not allowing players to modify spells they already have paid slot costs for is brilliant. Sure, they can spend XP on the Spell Multipower Reserve but if they want spells that can take advantage of the higher Active Points they must buy a brand new spell slot. As you point, out this encourages a desirable mix of spell power level. The fact that it does it so naturally and without any other required house rules is very elegant.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: spells and multi-power

 

I can see this becoming frustrating for the players, however, as old spell slots graduallly become useless, but the points spent on them remain tied up. In D&D, when a non-scaling spell becomes less than useful, the character simply selects different spells at that level.

 

In Hero, the points paid for that now-useless spell are still spent. Meanwhile, the warrior's skill levels accumulate, adding to one another.

[MorpheousXO]

Re: spells and multi-power

 

Well, as far as VPPs go, Killer Shrike has the dnd type magic system worked out in VPP form (unless you want a sorcerer, then it's multipower).

 

I do rather like the idea of restricting spell access like that, though there is a good point about how everyone else just adds on. The lower powered spells are useful, though, I would think when you want multiple effects up at once. That way you can scale your defensive spells and offensive spells a bit. Oh, this guys tough, better up my offense to higher powered attack spells. Uh oh, that blademaster is eyeing me funny, better use a higher mage armor intead of flaming skull of death!

 

Just how I'd imagine it'd work, anyway.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: spells and multi-power

 

Well, as far as VPPs go, Killer Shrike has the dnd type magic system worked out in VPP form (unless you want a sorcerer, then it's multipower).

 

I do rather like the idea of restricting spell access like that, though there is a good point about how everyone else just adds on. The lower powered spells are useful, though, I would think when you want multiple effects up at once. That way you can scale your defensive spells and offensive spells a bit. Oh, this guys tough, better up my offense to higher powered attack spells. Uh oh, that blademaster is eyeing me funny, better use a higher mage armor intead of flaming skull of death!

 

Just how I'd imagine it'd work, anyway.

 

If it helps to visualize, here is an actual PC that was played on the "Spontaneous" aka layered Multipower model, who I did a version of using the "Prepared' aka VPP collection of 1 Charge Spells as a comparison point:

 

 

Spontaneous version

 

Prepared version

Prepared version full Known Spells list

[Hyper-Man]

Re: spells and multi-power

 

I can see this becoming frustrating for the players, however, as old spell slots graduallly become useless, but the points spent on them remain tied up. In D&D, when a non-scaling spell becomes less than useful, the character simply selects different spells at that level.

 

In Hero, the points paid for that now-useless spell are still spent. Meanwhile, the warrior's skill levels accumulate, adding to one another.

 

This may appear to hit spellcasters harder but warriors would be affected too. Example: 2 point CSLs with a weapon type he no longer uses. Under this system the CSL could not be upgraded to a better CSL. It would have to be purchased seperately just like new spells.

 

I could see relaxing this restriction once a certain threshold of XP or gameworld acheivement has been attained. This would allow the spell caster to consolidate the huge Multipower into a VPP of prepared spells as in Killer Shrike's example. The equivalent could be done for CSL's and possibly other abilities used by the warrior and other character archtypes.

 

As with all house rules it would require monitoring by the GM during the campaign to ensure its fairness to all concerned.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: spells and multi-power

 

I can see this becoming frustrating for the players, however, as old spell slots graduallly become useless, but the points spent on them remain tied up. In D&D, when a non-scaling spell becomes less than useful, the character simply selects different spells at that level.

 

In Hero, the points paid for that now-useless spell are still spent. Meanwhile, the warrior's skill levels accumulate, adding to one another.

 

Its up to the GM whether or not points can be cannibalized in this fashion in the HERO System. If the GM allows a player to unlearn a spell and get the points back from it, then there you go.

[CourtFool]

Re: spells and multi-power

 

[derail] Killer Shrike, it seems to me that Concentration, Gestures and Incantations are not really much of a Limitation on spells with 1 Continuous Charge lasting 1 Day. Do your players generally cast them first thing in the morning or the first time they are needed?

 

Is the limited number of charges per slot a good deterant for your players casting all their Continuous >= 1 Day spells first thing in the morning? [/derail]

[Killer Shrike]

Re: spells and multi-power

 

[derail] Killer Shrike' date=' it seems to me that Concentration, Gestures and Incantations are not really much of a Limitation on spells with 1 Continuous Charge lasting 1 Day. Do your players generally cast them first thing in the morning or the first time they are needed?[/quote']

 

Yes. A few consideration:

 

a) The cost of the spell is consumed from the VPP for the day, so there is a rather stiff opportunity cost.

 

The beginning of the day is a dangerous time for a character that relies too much on such abilities. There will be times when they get caught with their pants down.

 

c) I don't have all that many combat relevant spells that last a full day, and even then most combat relevant spells of that nature are defensive or sensory in nature. For the most part such long durations are reserved for largely passive effects that its just annoying and game-bogging to have to hoard and miser-cast throughout the day if you even end up needing them. It encourages players to prepare some abilities that very niche or of limited utility, since they at least last all day long.

 

d) The required "turn off" condition for Continuous Charges on Spells that I use and recommend is contact w/ an anti-magic effect of equal or greater Active Points -- no dice roll necessary. Such effects do get turned off, and are expended. Even if the player prepared a "back up" of one or more such Spells they still have to cast them with whatever lims apply, which is usually difficult in a combat environment.

 

e) Such effects are all detectable (unless they are IPE), so walking around with such effects does set off / appear to detects which can have an adverse outcome on many levels. It can even go so far as to give away a characters relative power level, or even conversely as a complex subterfuge. For instance, a character walking around with stacked effects on long term charges, the most powerful of which is a 90 AP effect is broadcasting information about themselves to those with mystical senses -- they are at least powerful enough to throw around 90 AP effects. Even the particular spells involved can give away some information if they are well known, or have some in setting connotation to them. This really comes down to how subtle the GM wants to get, but I've gotten a lot of mileage out of this kind of detail in the past.

Is the limited number of charges per slot a good deterant for your players casting all their Continuous >= 1 Day spells first thing in the morning? [/derail]

 

a) If by limited charges you mean 1, then yes.

 

the Spells with greater than 1 Day Charges don't have to be recast each day. So for instance, some effects last for say a year or even a century (effectively permanent). They last until they expire or they are nullified / dispelled. They consume their cost from the VPP the day they are cast, but that allocation opens up again the next day.

[CourtFool]

Killer Shrike r0xx0r5 my s0xx0r5!!!!!!11!1!11

 

Thanks for the clarification.

 

I have really been burnt by the last few groups I have run Fantasy for. Hell, I have been burnt by the last few groups I have played Fantasy in. The magic users always seem to dominate and everyone else is their sidekick.

 

I cut my teeth on Fantasy and it is one of my favorite genres, but I am gun shy now. I have been over your site a dozen times and you should know by now that I love all the work you have done. Some of your systems I have not completely grasped and the others, I have not pondered the implications of. Yes, I have read your Magic System Design Advice.

 

I have considered Vancian Prepared Model for 'Wizards', Adeptology for 'Sorcerers' and maybe Magecraft for 'Mages'. You already suggested Luck for 'divine miracles' although that seems rather open ended for me. Not a slight on your suggestion, more of a lack of confidence in my own ability to handle it.

 

I do not want to 'nerf' magic users. I do not want everyone else to play second fiddle to them either.

 

I do not have a point. Just being envious of you out loud. Thanks again.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: spells and multi-power

 

Well, to be sure, Vancian Magic is a high powered "High Fantasy" magic system. It is intentionally powerful. At the highest end youve got characters capable of throwing around several 150 AP effects per day. That would make even superheroes blink.

 

Thats not to say that high level Wizards / Sorcerers / Magni (using my 3 different flavors) are supreme and all other characters are fit only to be their lackeys, but they are potent and dangerous.

 

If you like there are some high point non-magic users on my site that are comparable to high point magic users of those styles that you could look at to get a feel for relative power level. Specifically, within the context of the same campaign Kjar (the character I posted to previous) was from, here are a couple of other warrior PC's that had the same lifespan (start to end of the campaign) as that character:

 

Saemund

Fyrclian

 

 

If you want a more controlled Magic System, there are several on my site that are decidedly less uber...in fact, Vancian sits pretty much at the top of the power curve...only Adeptology really competes with it for sheer badassery.

 

If you want to email me your particular interests in a magic system I can either direct you to an existing one or give you advice on how to implement one that suits your needs.

[stewart]

Re: spells and multi-power

 

i use MPs for the framework in my FH game. it works really well so far, but we haven't been playing that long yet.

 

though i wanna second the notion of making each slot an ultra, mainly because the oppertunity cost of casting one spell over another works really well for dramactic situations, and to me creates a more fantasy feel where casters have a magic list of spells that they can cast one at a time vs a more super hero feel where you have several spells going on at once.

 

also, with all the limitations, ultra slots often only cost 1 or 2 points, making for a long enough list to be imaginative but still can't do everything.

 

i also would advise against using a VPP. this is just my opinion, but i forsee VPPs being the fastest way that a caster starts to overshadow the rest of the party, since given a nuff points, could have an effective spell for any situation.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: spells and multi-power

 

That depends on the nature of the VPP; there is a big difference between a Cosmic VPP that can be changed at will and a limited VPP that can only have certain kinds of effects and can only be changed under limited circumstances.

[Markdoc]

Re: spells and multi-power

 

That really explains a lot. Thank you for clarifying. How do you handle characters what want to start off with Finby's Floating Flotilla of Flying and Harrod's Healing Hand?

 

Also, do you allow Variable Power Pools at all?

 

I talk over the types of magic available to players and give some indication of what sort of spells they will initially have access to. If a player wanted access to healing magic from the start, then he could choose to practice a style of magic where that is standard - but given the nature of the cult, that might mean (does mean, in the current game) that some of the more combat-oriented spells are off the board initally.

 

Basically in my game, magic is defined culturally and socially. A player can't decide, just out of nowhere that he will have this particular set of spells. What I do instead is outline the different types of magic, their requirements and abilities - and then let the player choose what sort of magical career they want to follow. This is no different to the way any type of skill/ability is handled - a character coming from a desert area wouldn't have maritime skills, for example.

 

In the part of the game world where the current game is running, there are three types of magic:

 

Heretic cult magic (using a multipower) that relies on having a supernatural patron. It's a Valdorian age inspired system and the most powerful, but which comes with some significant drawbacks.

 

Temple magic - this uses VPPs. It is less powerful at lower levels (because you have to buy the VPP), but very flexible: since it uses a VPP, with "limited powers: spells known" a temple mage has no theoretical limit on the number or type of spells he can learn - but he has to find them and then increase his VPP to hold them. Most temples have spells they teach to initiates, more powerful ones for adepts and the best ones are kept for priests and holy champions - and not every temple's priests knows every spell - a small local shrine might only have a dozen spells as cult secrets - the grand Temple of the White city has hundreds.

 

Finally there's the old magic of the forest dwellers, where each spell is bought individually - but with the independant limitation, greatly reducing cost. Magic users of this school usually only have a few spells (although a powerful sorceror might have many, because it's possible to inherit or steal spells from others) but they could be quite powerful. This is also the only system where a player could ask for a specific spell, since here there is no spell list - every spell is unique. However there are limitations on what this kind of magic can do: it can only affect the caster personally or things he can directly handle.

 

cheers, Mark

[Markdoc]

Re: spells and multi-power

 

I can see this becoming frustrating for the players, however, as old spell slots graduallly become useless, but the points spent on them remain tied up. In D&D, when a non-scaling spell becomes less than useful, the character simply selects different spells at that level.

 

In Hero, the points paid for that now-useless spell are still spent. Meanwhile, the warrior's skill levels accumulate, adding to one another.

 

It's never been a problem in my games simply because very few spells ever become totally useless, and because the rules I use (spell casting uses LTE) limit the number of spells that can be cast - so just like a D&D arcane spellcaster you may hardly use Tyrion's Irrittating Itch anymore but it is still sitting in your spellbook, using up one of your "slots". In Hero at least you have the advantage that there is an unlimited number of slots.

 

Basically, I see this as no different to a player buying Chinese language while adventuring in China. He doesn't get to swap it out with Portugese when the action moves to Rio de Janeiro. He may rarely use Chinese in future - but it's still there when he needs it. All characters tend to accumulate points in things like this in the course of play and in my game, magic is no different.

 

cheers, Mark

[Markdoc]

Re: Killer Shrike r0xx0r5 my s0xx0r5!!!!!!11!1!11

 

Thanks for the clarification.

 

I have really been burnt by the last few groups I have run Fantasy for. Hell, I have been burnt by the last few groups I have played Fantasy in. The magic users always seem to dominate and everyone else is their sidekick.

 

It's a good point - we had the same experience when we started using Hero rules for fantasy games (and we had 4 GMs (5 campaigns in all) all using Hero system, so we racked up a lot of experience with different play styles in the first couple of years).

 

Basically, magical types have access to such a wide range of powers that that they can - even without being munchkinny - dominate the group very easily. To run a successful game, magic users need to be nerfed. Not too much, because magic is a fun part of the game, just enough to keep it fun for everyone involved.

 

There's multiple way to do this (see KS's site ) but my approach is:

 

1) allow powers and (possibly) frameworks for all. If mages get access to VPPs and/or MP, then other archetypes can as well. Thus a warrior might have a "fighting tricks" multipower, a rogue type "super-sneakiness" (such as invisibility to normal sight and hearing, only while in cover). This doesn't get too gross, because in general the type of powers avialable to non-magic types are generally limited to doing at a better level what that character can do anyway. But it prevents the mage with an invisibility spell outdoing the stealth specialist, for example

 

2) Ride herd on what types of spells are available. Right now in my current game, the Sun God Priest has a spell (searing hands: it's an Energy HKA, AP) which lets him harm opponents that are very hard for the warriors to hurt. But he has no forcefield, he has no invisibility or flight and he's not otherwise as good a warrior as the dedicated fighters, so he doesn't dominate combat. He can do a few other things - he has some mental spells (because of the Sun God's rulership aspect) so he's the point man on interrogations. In other words, he can do some stuff the others can't do but he can't do everything.

 

3) Restrict how often spells can be used. I require all spells to use LTE and all spells must use END. That prevents the "I activate my forcefield and keep it on all day" stuff (which, let's face it, resembles no fantasy novel I ever read). On the plus side, the fact that mages can only use their spells a limited number of times before resting needs to be offset to keep them useful, which means that I tolerate high active point spells. The mage who casts "Body of Iron" gets 30 rDEF and is basically immune to any kind of normal attack - but he can only keep it up for 6-10 phases, max - and at that point he's gonna be too exhausted to even run away...

That means a mage can do stuff no other character can do (and that's important - it's a big part of the reason for being a mage) - but he can't do it all the time, meaning either he has to rely on others some of the time or spend points learning other useful stuff: he can't just magic his way through every challenge.

 

cheers, Mark