Eurostar vs Sentinels

[MitchellS]

Re: Eurostar vs Sentinels

 

A better solution: upping heroic Ego levels in general. In my opinion' date=' pretty much anybody who actually becomes a super hero should end up with decently high Ego, and veterans even higher. A normalish level mentalist has alot harder time if he's having to fight people with 25 Ego rather than 15. That, combined with a careful interpretation of what level of effect a given command or illusion is, would reduce the 'instant KO' factor alot, and make the ( less hazardous to a group's success ) Ego Attack the better option generally.[/quote']

I honestly don't believe ego inflation is the answer [not that I don't think many characters couldn't use more ego]. Most supers are not strong willed, IMO. Heck, Spiderman's Marvel's most popular hero and he's one of the most self-doubting, down on himself characters there is.

[MitchellS]

Re: Eurostar vs Sentinels

 

Oh I don't know about not knowing how tough any teams out there are. Their character sheets probably look a bit different now but the London Watch doesn't have a single member it didn't have in 4e. There's tactics of course but CU makes it sound like the Watch can hold their own' date=' at least before Visigoth and Pantera came along.[/quote']

While the characters have remained the same the writeups could go anywhere. The change between 250 and 350 point campaigns has altered many characters. Just as Eurostar has been depowered London Watch could be likewise [or they could all be 600 point characters].

 

There are very few characters in 5E who I think are more powerful then their 4E counterparts [and almost all of those are in the VIPER sourcebook]. In general 5E tends to depower characters while spending more points on them, IMO.

[Runemaster]

Re: Eurostar vs Sentinels

 

When DoJ reprints their stats, that might true, but until they do I don't see any reason not to drag out my Kingdom of Champions if I'm going to use them.

[MitchellS]

Re: Eurostar vs Sentinels

 

Sure, but I assumed we were talking about "official" things in this thread.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Eurostar vs Sentinels

 

I honestly don't believe ego inflation is the answer [not thing I don't think many characters couldn't use more ego]. Most supers are not strong willed' date=' IMO. Heck, Spiderman's Marvel's most popular hero and he's one of the most self-doubting, down on himself characters there is.[/quote']I don't know if I'd equate confidence to willpower. Yes, Spider-Man sometimes doubts his role in life, but I don't think he lacks willpower. He's shown himself often enough to struggle against overwhelming odds. Someone with limited willpower would just give up the fight.

[Runemaster]

Re: Eurostar vs Sentinels

 

Sure' date=' but I assumed we were talking about "official" things in this thread.[/quote']

 

And as far as I know there are no "official" 5e statistics for English superhero teams published yet. Or did I miss that issue of Digital Hero?

 

Sorry, maybe it's just my mistake for going off material for a different edition, but that's all I have to go off. Since they left the membership almost completely intact I figured the team wouldn't be too different from how it was before.

[MitchellS]

Re: Eurostar vs Sentinels

 

I don't know if I'd equate confidence to willpower. Yes' date=' Spider-Man sometimes doubts his role in life, but I don't think he lacks willpower. He's shown himself often enough to struggle against overwhelming odds. Someone with limited willpower would just give up the fight.[/quote']

I guess my point was that while I can see Spidey with a 15 ego [he's stronger willed then average but only barely strong enough to overcome his psych lims in major emergencies] I can't really see him with the 25 Metaphysician was talking about just to overcome the problems with mental attacks in the game.

[MitchellS]

Re: Eurostar vs Sentinels

 

And as far as I know there are no "official" 5e statistics for English superhero teams published yet. Or did I miss that issue of Digital Hero?

 

Sorry, maybe it's just my mistake for going off material for a different edition, but that's all I have to go off.

No, there aren't any. But that still doesn't mean we can make comparisons with 4E versions. As I said in the original post, until we see 5E writeups for those European characters there's no way of knowing how powerful Eurostar is in the European theater. They might be very powerful or only average. Their reputation would suggest very powerful.

[Runemaster]

Re: Eurostar vs Sentinels

 

I just realized we're arguing over something campaign-specific. Sorry. Still a stoopid nOOb talking out of my butt...

[Trebuchet]

Re: Eurostar vs Sentinels

 

I guess my point was that while I can see Spidey with a 15 ego [he's stronger willed then average but only barely strong enough to overcome his psych lims in major emergencies] I can't really see him with the 25 Metaphysician was talking about just to overcome the problems with mental attacks in the game.

I agree. OTOH, a 15 or 18 EGO and a couple of All Combat or Overall Levels would make it quite a bit harder for a 23 - 25 EGO mentalist to handle said character, both in terms of hitting with ECV and gaining multiples for mental effects.

 

I think many people who push themselves hard on a near-daily basis (Olympic-level athletes, Navy SEALS, top ranked competitors) can justify a higher-than-10 EGO.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Eurostar vs Sentinels

 

Re: Scorpia's curare darts, they are defined as 'must target an unarmored hit location.'

 

There are very few ways that this can be interpreted that allow her to hit many members of the Sentinels. Black Rose and Dr Vox both have Force Fields. Diamond, Bravo, and Proteus all have inherent, persistent resistant defense. The only one who could be effected is Diadem, whose resistant defense comes from Combat Luck ( non-persistent ) and a OIF suit ( non-fully covering by SFX ).

 

To do otherwise requires arguing that possessing inherent resistant defense, or Force Field's that lack limited coverage, constitutes 'an unarmored hit location.'

[Runemaster]

Re: Eurostar vs Sentinels

 

I always thought Scorpia was kind of stupid anyway...

[Metaphysician]

Re: Eurostar vs Sentinels

 

Well, she's underpowered for Eurostar, yes. The problem is, her main schtick is very much an all-or-nothing deal. Against foes she can tag with the curare darts, she's Living Death. Against other foes, she's generally useless. OTOH, any time you've got normals to threaten, she's a hazard.

 

Technically speaking, her Curare Dart attack should probably be rewritten into something like a 1 pip HKA Ranged Based on Strength, with the NND Linked to it ( and with the requirement that the first attack does Body ). This better fits the special effect. . . but doesn't really help Scorpia in this fight any. The only foe with marginal enough defense to conceivably benefit from it is Bravo. . . and it'd still require her to target a location not covered by his Magic Cloak. Given it has no Limited Coverage weakness, this'd pretty much amount to a -8 OCV called shot. . . which given *Bravo's* DCV, means its basically a waste of effort.

[lapsedgamer]

Re: Eurostar vs Sentinels

 

Re: Scorpia's curare darts, they are defined as 'must target an unarmored hit location.'

 

There are very few ways that this can be interpreted that allow her to hit many members of the Sentinels. Black Rose and Dr Vox both have Force Fields. Diamond, Bravo, and Proteus all have inherent, persistent resistant defense. The only one who could be effected is Diadem, whose resistant defense comes from Combat Luck ( non-persistent ) and a OIF suit ( non-fully covering by SFX ).

 

To do otherwise requires arguing that possessing inherent resistant defense, or Force Field's that lack limited coverage, constitutes 'an unarmored hit location.'

 

So, are people boosting Scorpia on their own, maybe with some kind of armor piercing or penetrating weapon with poison?

[Metaphysician]

Re: Eurostar vs Sentinels

 

I'd buy AP, but honestly, add Penetrating only with *very* careful consideration. It turns her from "moderately potent martial artist with a few nasty tricks against other MAers" into "Walking Death." After all, remember, a 4d6 NND Does Body RKA is a 180 active point attack. The only reason its at all balanced currently is because its exceedingly hard to use, well beyond a normal NND.

[casualplayer]

Re: Eurostar vs Sentinels

 

So' date=' are people boosting Scorpia on their own, maybe with some kind of armor piercing or penetrating weapon with poison?[/quote']

 

Or, like I said earlier, Fiacho attacks hard armor foci with his acid bombs then Scorpia friggin' kills them dead through the fresh gap in the armor. Teamwork.

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Eurostar vs Sentinels

 

I always thought Scorpia was kind of stupid anyway...

 

Scorpia with a little rework is actually very cool in a HEROIC not supers game. Fiona Obrady has been a staple villianess for years in our scifi campaign. fiacho also can work in the same environment.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Eurostar vs Sentinels

 

Or' date=' like I said earlier, Fiacho attacks hard armor foci with his acid bombs then Scorpia friggin' kills them dead through the fresh gap in the armor. Teamwork.[/quote']

 

Thats good tactics. Doesn't help against the Sentinels, though.

[casualplayer]

Re: Eurostar vs Sentinels

 

Thats good tactics. Doesn't help against the Sentinels' date=' though.[/quote']

 

Well, Black Rose's rDEF costs END (FF,) Bravo's rDEF is from his Magical Cloak and Costume susceptable to the acid bombs, Diadem just has a plain old 5/5 padded costume and unless Proteus is Armored Up he doesn't have defenses that would apply. I wouldn't consider Bravo's and Proteus' intrinsic rDEF from Damage Resistance as valid defense against the curare darts and, depending on the game, some GMs might let a called shot to the face bypass Bravo's and Diadem's costume-based rDEF. Scorpia starts sounding like more and more of a threat to The Sentinels. And if Eurostar is built on comparable points all bets are off.

 

Just got C:NotW today.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Eurostar vs Sentinels

 

Well' date=' Black Rose's rDEF costs END (FF,) Bravo's rDEF is from his [i']Magical Cloak and Costume[/i] susceptable to the acid bombs, Diadem just has a plain old 5/5 padded costume and unless Proteus is Armored Up he doesn't have defenses that would apply. I wouldn't consider Bravo's and Proteus' intrinsic rDEF from Damage Resistance as valid defense against the curare darts and, depending on the game, some GMs might let a called shot to the face bypass Bravo's and Diadem's costume-based rDEF. Scorpia starts sounding like more and more of a threat to The Sentinels. And if Eurostar is built on comparable points all bets are off.

 

Just got C:NotW today.

 

1. Bravo's is arguable ( 3 points or rPD should stop it as written, but not as defined by its SFX ), but its vaguely irrelevant, since she'd need to make a really unlikely called shot to bypass the cloak. Proteus? I'd have a hard time buying 15 points of resistant PD as *not* stopping it, regardless of the source ( unless you think she can throw her dart through an APC's plate ).

 

2. Called shot against Diadem works fine, except again, she needs to make a really unlikely called shot to pull it off.

 

3. Getting the FFs down on the members that have them requires somebody having already hit them fairly hard. . . and the same weakness applies to several members of Eurostar.

[casualplayer]

Re: Eurostar vs Sentinels

 

Methinks Scorpia should have gotten one hell of a lot more of a Disad for "Must target an unarmored part of body." Your earlier suggested write-up for her darts better represents their capability and ability to be resisted or defended against. Right now they are an NND against 1 pt of rPD.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Eurostar vs Sentinels

 

Well, not *all*types of rPD stop her cold. Combat Luck doesn't, and rPD with Limited Coverage is bypassable to a varying degree. Its just, if I were running things, I wouldn't let her bypass armor that has a SFX that includes uncovered locations, except for a considerable penalty. That said, yep, "Must Target Unarmored Hit Location" really should be worth more like -1.

 

Switching to a 1/2d6 HKA or so wouldn't really make it *that* much more effective, except against people getting by one a single point of rPD; it would however make it clearer what constitutes protection and what doesn't.

 

Oh, and checked. Scorpia is totally useless on Proteus anyway. He's got Life Support ( All Terrestrial Poisons and Diseases ).

[casualplayer]

Re: Eurostar vs Sentinels

 

Oh' date=' and checked. Scorpia is totally useless on Proteus anyway. He's got Life Support ( All Terrestrial Poisons and Diseases ).[/quote']

 

D'oh! Last power on the list.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Eurostar vs Sentinels

 

One of the things I really hate about Champions is that mentalists are really too powerful in the game. Most people are going to be hit by them 95% of the time and they'll take damage 100% of the time. Superhero encounters shouldn't be about taking out the mentalist first' date=' IMO. If there ever is a 6E I hope mental powers gets a complete rewrite.[/quote']

 

Yes, some tweaking is definitely in order. They are too Rock-Paper-Scissor; they either dominate or suck circumstantially.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Eurostar vs Sentinels

 

Hmm. . . how much do EDCV levels cost?