Metaphysician Posted May 17, 2007 Report Share Posted May 17, 2007 It had to happen. For convenience sake, I'm assuming CKC version of Eurostar. Figuring out the behavior of 6 vs 6 is bad enough, 6 vs 8 is all the worse. Also assuming a meeting engagement. Sure, this means no ambush for Eurostar, but it also means no squads of Lythraen soldiers, either. My own initial thoughts. . . Diamond is an incredible pain for Eurostar to handle, just in himself. Feuermacher, Scorpia, and Ultrasonique might as well not even be there, for all the good they do against him. Durak can at best stalemate him for a little while, but given Diamond is stronger, tougher, and more skilled. . . he's basically just surviving on it taking a few hits to attrite him. Only Fiacho and Mentalla can really do anything better against him. Mentalla can incap him with her mind control or mental illusion, if she hits ( she usually will ). Fiacho can try and use his gadgets, or Find Weakness + martial arts. His odds are worse though, and martial arts might actually be almost as bad for him as Diamond ( depending on whether you let him apply his armored costume to the damage shield ). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted May 17, 2007 Report Share Posted May 17, 2007 Re: Eurostar vs Sentinels Could you please define "meeting engagement?" Do the teams anticipate encountering each other, or are they suddenly face-to-face with no advance warning? Are they familiar with each other's capabilities? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MitchellS Posted May 17, 2007 Report Share Posted May 17, 2007 Re: Eurostar vs Sentinels I personally believe even adding Der Westgote and Pantera to the mix wouldn't make them strong enough to defeat the Sentinels. Diadem can spank Mentalla. I doubt even combining Der Westgote and Durak on Diamond would allow them to win. Dr. Vox is as immune to sonics as can be possible, so goodbye Ultrasonique. Black Rose easily blinds Pantera and can use the darkness to turn Pantera against her own teammates. Proteus spanks Scorpia, Bravo might win against Fiacho, and whoever's left can deal with Feuermacher. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted May 17, 2007 Report Share Posted May 17, 2007 Re: Eurostar vs Sentinels You seem a little fixated on the ladies getting spanked, MS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hermit Posted May 17, 2007 Report Share Posted May 17, 2007 Re: Eurostar vs Sentinels Only the bad girls, LL Mmm, yeah, this does sound wrong on a lot of levels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MitchellS Posted May 17, 2007 Report Share Posted May 17, 2007 Re: Eurostar vs Sentinels You seem a little fixated on the ladies getting spanked' date=' MS. [/quote'] I get confused on days when my wife stays home from work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metaphysician Posted May 17, 2007 Author Report Share Posted May 17, 2007 Re: Eurostar vs Sentinels Ah, by "meeting engagement", I'm referring to the two teams running into each other in circumstances that don't particularly favor either team, and without either team having particular preparation. For example, the "Champions vs Mechanon" threads of old would count as meeting engagements. As for adding Westgote and Pantera, I'm not so sure. Westgote, IIRC, hits harder than Durak does when factoring in his MA. Of course, that might just encourage Diamond to grab and throw Durak at someone, like Fiacho. . . Pantera, her usefulness almost totally depends on whether or not she makes her Find Weakness rolls. OTOH, with all these opponents, she'd have to make a new one every time she attacked a new opponent, so. . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MitchellS Posted May 17, 2007 Report Share Posted May 17, 2007 Re: Eurostar vs Sentinels Der Westgote has a 60 str, but can hit for 14d or crush for 16d. His big attack is a 6d6 hka [but it uses 1/3 of his end!]. Unfortunately he only has a 25 pd and a 30 con. Diamond's 17d punches average will do 59 on average, meaning DW is stunned after each hit. I don't think the battle'd be a cakewalk but unless DW and Durak roll high damage they're looking at doing 4 stun from punching and DW can do 11 from a crush [the hka all depends on the stun lotto, if you use fixed at 3 you're looking at 18 through]. Diamond can suck that up for about a turn before getting KO'd. DW, on the other hand, will be stunned on the first hit and drop on the second hit and Durak can only last 3 hits. I'd put my money on Diamond. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metaphysician Posted May 18, 2007 Author Report Share Posted May 18, 2007 Re: Eurostar vs Sentinels I think the real question is, which side keeps its mentalist up longer. Diadem is more fragile, but harder to hit, and neither of them can really take much in the way of damage. And both of them can do one-shot stun or disable on most members of the other team. Of course, then comes the relevant problem: one Phase 12, half of the Sentinels go before Mentalla. . . and at least one of them ( Bravo ) can basically one-shot her. Depending on how its adjudicated, both Proteus and Diadem could also cause her to lose her action, singlehandedly ( via grappling or mental illusion ). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Goradin Posted May 18, 2007 Report Share Posted May 18, 2007 Re: Eurostar vs Sentinels The good guys would win this one I'd bet or the Eurostar guys would be ruling the world. Diamond is a handful for anyone not an egotist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metaphysician Posted May 18, 2007 Author Report Share Posted May 18, 2007 Re: Eurostar vs Sentinels The good guys would win this one I'd bet or the Eurostar guys would be ruling the world. Diamond is a handful for anyone not an egotist. So, Fiacho can hand him his ass? Actually, Fiacho *could* beat him, but its unlikely. His hardest hitting move is the acid pellets, but he'd need three hits to take down Diamond. Likewise, he could use Find Weakness, but even two successes won't let him stun Diamond. Whereas Diamond only needs to hit him once, and he's screwed. And with his OCV, it'll happen soon, unless Fiacho spends all his time Dodging. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Goradin Posted May 18, 2007 Report Share Posted May 18, 2007 Re: Eurostar vs Sentinels Diamond has that AE Brick trick, Explosion that would negate that dodging. Could Fiacho dodge a explosion advantage on his strength? He could try a dive for cover if the GMs that be allow it. But most likely he would be eating 15D6. It would really depend on where the battle took place as Diamond would not be able to cut loose in a heavily populated area. I think Diamond would likely be the last Sentinel standingin most scenarios. He is built for durability and compared to his team mates he is way more durable. That big time knockback punch can ruin most of Eurostar's day when you consider they could be looking at a 15D6 attack with double knockback so one might be taking as many as 18-28D6 from the knockback + 15d6 from the punch itself. It would eat his END up but he could one shot even Durak with that and Westgote would go down easy as well. I bet the ever lovin' Diamond might even use STUN to one shot those bad boys just to get them out of the way. One of two things might happen, Eurostar might decide to defeat the team in detail and take out his team mates first. Diamond might take out a few but he probably would have a two or three on one after his mates were out of it. On the other hand, they could try to take out the biggest threat first, meaning Diamond. This would allow his team mates to snipe while he takes the shots for them. I think this is how he was designed to be played but either choice isn't great. I would think Fiacho would want to trick the heroes and isolate them and defeat them one on one top avoid these costly scenarios. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metaphysician Posted May 18, 2007 Author Report Share Posted May 18, 2007 Re: Eurostar vs Sentinels Problem is, aside from Mentalla, they don't really *have* anybody who could stand a good shot of taking him down. If she's up and free, he's down. . . but if she's not, Eurostar is stuck with Fiacho, and a bunch of people who mostly can't harm him much at all. So, dogpiling doesn't work anywhere near as well as it might. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Runemaster Posted May 18, 2007 Report Share Posted May 18, 2007 Re: Eurostar vs Sentinels So basically Eurostar's not quite as invincible as all the books make them sound. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimble Posted May 18, 2007 Report Share Posted May 18, 2007 Re: Eurostar vs Sentinels My 40 Quatloos are on the Sentinels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metaphysician Posted May 18, 2007 Author Report Share Posted May 18, 2007 Re: Eurostar vs Sentinels So basically Eurostar's not quite as invincible as all the books make them sound. They haven't been invincible since 4e, if then. Of course, it doesn't especially matter if the GM remembers they fight like terrorists. . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Runemaster Posted May 18, 2007 Report Share Posted May 18, 2007 Re: Eurostar vs Sentinels Well, it's bad enough to have Pantera back. Imagine if all those guys they asked in Champions Worldwide decided to join. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zed-F Posted May 18, 2007 Report Share Posted May 18, 2007 Re: Eurostar vs Sentinels But do they fight like terrorists in a Silver Age game, or terrorists in an Iron Age game? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted May 18, 2007 Report Share Posted May 18, 2007 Re: Eurostar vs Sentinels Judging by the description of their goals, tactics and history, I'd say Bronze shading strongly toward Iron. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted May 18, 2007 Report Share Posted May 18, 2007 Re: Eurostar vs Sentinels So basically Eurostar's not quite as invincible as all the books make them sound. Or the Sentinels are as good as their rep. Probably both. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hermit Posted May 18, 2007 Report Share Posted May 18, 2007 Re: Eurostar vs Sentinels Fortunately for the Sentinels, Diadem's danger sense/mind link combo makes any ambush by Eurostar less likely to catch the heroes off guard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MitchellS Posted May 18, 2007 Report Share Posted May 18, 2007 Re: Eurostar vs Sentinels Actually' date=' Fiacho *could* beat him, but its unlikely. His hardest hitting move is the acid pellets, but he'd need three hits to take down Diamond. Likewise, he could use Find Weakness, but even two successes won't let him stun Diamond.[/quote'] As a GM I'd probably rule that the corrosive gas pellets don't work against Diamond's double-hardened skin even though the defense of the NND acid is FF/FW. The special effects would indicate to me that it shouldn't work on someone as hard as a diamond, IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MitchellS Posted May 18, 2007 Report Share Posted May 18, 2007 Re: Eurostar vs Sentinels So basically Eurostar's not quite as invincible as all the books make them sound. Without seeing what the European superhero teams look like we can't really say. IMO, Eurostar could take UNITY. The New Knights, London Watch, Nightwatch, and Vanguard might not be all the formidable, which would make Eurostar fairly tough in Europe. Maybe that's why they don't come to the US too often. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted May 18, 2007 Report Share Posted May 18, 2007 Re: Eurostar vs Sentinels As a GM I'd probably rule that the corrosive gas pellets don't work against Diamond's double-hardened skin even though the defense of the NND acid is FF/FW. The special effects would indicate to me that it shouldn't work on someone as hard as a diamond' date=' IMO.[/quote'] Hmm... I can see taking that position, but OTOH "hardness" doesn't necessarily have anything to do with chemical reactiveness. You can dissolve the hardest steel pretty fast in the right corrosive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MitchellS Posted May 18, 2007 Report Share Posted May 18, 2007 Re: Eurostar vs Sentinels Hmm... I can see taking that position' date=' but OTOH "hardness" doesn't necessarily have anything to do with chemical reactiveness. You can dissolve the hardest steel pretty fast in the right corrosive.[/quote'] Still, special effects have to have something to do with it. A 3 pd force wall made from ice or paper shouldn't be more resistant to his acid then a diamond. The nnd info is just a special effects guideline, IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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