Eurostar vs Sentinels

[Hermit]

Re: Eurostar vs Sentinels

 

I think given his Brick Tricks skill, Diamond could avoid that corosive gas in one way or another. A combination of his Missile Deflection and a skill roll to 'shockwave' it back at Fiacho, for example, could be quite surprising for the villain. Part of Diamond's charm appears to be he's smarter than he looks.

[Runemaster]

Re: Eurostar vs Sentinels

 

Part of Diamond's charm appears to be he's smarter than he looks.

 

And that's why I'm looking forward to using him. He's like the Thing minus the whinyness. Good job, guys.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Eurostar vs Sentinels

 

As a GM I'd probably rule that the corrosive gas pellets don't work against Diamond's double-hardened skin even though the defense of the NND acid is FF/FW. The special effects would indicate to me that it shouldn't work on someone as hard as a diamond' date=' IMO.[/quote']

 

Its a judgement call, granted. Then again, I increasingly think that, come 6e, NND defense conditions should be explicitly required to be SFX, rather than game mechanic.

 

It doesn't hugely matter, though; if Fiacho hits him for damage, Diamond is going to at wallop him into GM's Discretion in a phase or two.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Eurostar vs Sentinels

 

Without seeing what the European superhero teams look like we can't really say. IMO' date=' Eurostar could take UNITY. The New Knights, London Watch, Nightwatch, and Vanguard might not be all the formidable, which would make Eurostar fairly tough in Europe. Maybe that's why they don't come to the US too often. [/quote']

 

OTOH, Britain has both Albion and Hyperion, the weaker of the two is a even fight for Firewing. So, they probably have to tread carefully there.

 

( not as carefully as they'd have to trend in my current campaign, though. . . *cough* )

[Runemaster]

Re: Eurostar vs Sentinels

 

I was just saying whenever they get mentioned in a sourcebook they sound like the baddest supervillain team ever. But to be perfectly honest I've never used them in a 5e campaign so I couldn't really say.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Eurostar vs Sentinels

 

I've always found that a little bit silly in 5e, given that even in CKC where they got written up, the Crowns of Krim way outpower them, and the Ultimates are a fairly even match for them.

 

What Eurostar has going for them, is looser genre restrictions. They don't fight like supervillains, they fight like superterrorists. Lots of total ruthless pragmatism, lots of hostage holding, clever tactics, stuff like that. Thus, from a heroic perspective, they are sheer hell to fight against, because you need extraordinary skill, effort, and/or luck to keep from suffering massive collateral casualties.

[Zed-F]

Re: Eurostar vs Sentinels

 

But do they fight like terrorists in a Silver Age game' date=' or terrorists in an Iron Age game? [/quote']

My point was that if they are being trotted out in a Silver Age game, they will probably use different tactics than if they are trotted out in an Iron Age game, and that might well affect how effective they are as opposition for the PCs.

[casualplayer]

Re: Eurostar vs Sentinels

 

I have to get C:NotW before being completely hip to the Sentinels but I think Eurostar is being sold short. Fiacho would know the Sentinels' membership cold and just how to work them. He would know the weak link in the team and also know that Diamond, apparently, is out of harm's reach. Bricks you can't hurt you evade and disregard, getting into close combat with their teammates so the brick can't use AE tricks. Pantera and Scorpia are light cavalry, not shock troops, and they would Stealth out waiting for an opportunity for a killing blow. Mentalla works best on intelligence gathering, subterfuge and sabotage. Le Sone and Feuermacher are air cav. Durak and der Westgote are the damage sponges and heavy hitters.

 

For example, Team X encounters Eurostar. Durak and der Westgote go into their noisy carnival acts making a huge PRE attack of "Bring it on." Team X wants to bring it on so all but the most tactically minded on the team focus on these two, burning attacks on the two best able to withstand them. Meanwhile Fiacho is relaying telepathic orders through Mentalla while she is simultaneously Mind Controlling the slowest opponent to go after Eurostar's fastest, Pantera. Pantera leads the dupe around the field, knowing to stay just out of reach. Le Sone and Feuermacher get some height and set up a rotating perimeter so any KB from successful attacks will send opponents downward and inward. Scorpia goes on the hunt for an inviting target. Fiacho waits for an opportunity to strike a decisive blow and finish someone off.

 

Teamwork isn't just for the good guys.

[Guest Goradin]

Re: Eurostar vs Sentinels

 

Boy, that is a complex but intelligent plan, Casual player. Trouble is complex plans don't always work as they are supposed to do so. The more variables the more that can go wrong. No team work isn't just for the good guys and your absolutely right. Durak isn't the brightest fellow though in regards to teamwork though with his beserk in combat disads making him as much as liability in combat as a asset to even his own team.

 

I think a flyer could give Diamond trouble though but he could pick up a large object and heave it at that good old DCV 3 hex and nail some of them.

 

In the end the good guys are supposed to win. I am sure Darren and Steve wrote em up this way too. I mean the Sentinels are like the Fantastic Four, Justice League or Avengers of the Champion Universe. If your a villian and they coming knocking on your door and your not named Destroyer, Tyrannon or Takofanes then your most likely in for a hurting.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Eurostar vs Sentinels

 

I have to get C:NotW before being completely hip to the Sentinels but I think Eurostar is being sold short. Fiacho would know the Sentinels' membership cold and just how to work them. He would know the weak link in the team and also know that Diamond, apparently, is out of harm's reach. Bricks you can't hurt you evade and disregard, getting into close combat with their teammates so the brick can't use AE tricks. Pantera and Scorpia are light cavalry, not shock troops, and they would Stealth out waiting for an opportunity for a killing blow. Mentalla works best on intelligence gathering, subterfuge and sabotage. Le Sone and Feuermacher are air cav. Durak and der Westgote are the damage sponges and heavy hitters.

 

For example, Team X encounters Eurostar. Durak and der Westgote go into their noisy carnival acts making a huge PRE attack of "Bring it on." Team X wants to bring it on so all but the most tactically minded on the team focus on these two, burning attacks on the two best able to withstand them. Meanwhile Fiacho is relaying telepathic orders through Mentalla while she is simultaneously Mind Controlling the slowest opponent to go after Eurostar's fastest, Pantera. Pantera leads the dupe around the field, knowing to stay just out of reach. Le Sone and Feuermacher get some height and set up a rotating perimeter so any KB from successful attacks will send opponents downward and inward. Scorpia goes on the hunt for an inviting target. Fiacho waits for an opportunity to strike a decisive blow and finish someone off.

 

Teamwork isn't just for the good guys.

 

Not a bad tactical plan. . . except thats its unworkable for several reasons.

 

1. Familiarity works both ways- any global scale superteam is going to be as familiar with Eurostar and its long time members as vice versa.

 

2. Wasting attacks by targetting those who desire to be targetted is outright tactical idiocy when facing a team like Eurostar. . . and any team with business fighting them will know this.

 

3. Mentalla *can't* telepathically coordinate her side; she doesn't have Psychic Link. At best, she could relay between herself and another person via Telepathy, at the expense of not being able to attack.

 

4. Choosing to ignore a member of an opposing team, *any* member, is a delicate and risky decision. . . and a spectacularly bad one in the case of Diamond. OCV that tends to hover between 11 and 13 means there is not a single member of Eurostar who is safe from being walloped, save by hanging out at altitudes that would greatly diminish their own utility. . . and only Durak doesn't have to worry about being Stunned if he's hit.

 

5. Scorpia, OTOH, *can* be ignored for most intents and purposes. . . because all her useful attacks rely on targets having little or no defense.

 

6. As can Ultrasonique shortly into the fight, as Dr Vox can render him irrelevant with one attack action ( Dispel vs his sonar focus ).

 

7. Lastly, any kind of precise and careful plan runs into the fact that one quarter of Eurostar has Berserk, of a type thats likely to trigger in combat.

 

A few of these are Sentinels-specific, but most are difficulties that would apply to your tactical scheme regardless of the opposition.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Eurostar vs Sentinels

 

Oh, the other problem I forgot to mention: the initiative cycle favors the Sentinels. Pantera and Bravo both act on Dex 30, but aside from Pantera, Eurostar has to deal with Diadem and Proteus going before them. The chances of Mentalla in particular still being up and active when her phase comes around are slim.

[incrdbil]

Re: Eurostar vs Sentinels

 

Eurostarts best hope is delaying/dostracting the heroes with threatented innocets., If they get caught in an open field fight vs the Sentinels, the 5e version of Eurostar is just going to be trounced easily. They are probably the most 'reworked' team in CKC to be brought back upp to their old selves by veteran Champs GM's.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Eurostar vs Sentinels

 

Well, assuming even engagement and full Eurostar roster, best tactics I can name. . .

 

-Have Pantera rush Diadem. Force the Sentinels' faster people to focus on keeping Diadem uneviscerated, rather than taking down Mentalla.

 

-Have Mentalla focus on taking down Diamond

 

-Have everyone else focus on taking down Diadem

 

-Spread out, so as to minimize the effect of the various area powers ( Black Rose's darkness, Diamond's brick tricks, Dr Vox's area sound blasts )

 

There's still the problem that the Sentinels will have better coordination ( Diadem's psychic link, plus Black Rose actually has a higher Tactics rating than Fiacho ), plus Durak and Pantera likely going Berserk soon.

 

Basically, I see a couple ways it can fall:

 

-Mentalla and Diadem both go down: fight is ugly but generally bad for Eurostar, as evacuating Diadem is alot easier for the Sentinels than getting Mentalla clear. . . and with Mentalla down, Diamond is free to smash Eurostar up ( if I were him, I'd do alot of "grab enemy, throw at other enemy" )

 

-Mentalla down, Diadem up: Eurostar is screwed. Diamand is still free to rampage, and Diadem can basically one-hit anybody on the other team per attack

 

-Mentalla up, Diadem down: Sentinels are in trouble. Mentalla can do nasty things to the Sentinels, one per round.

 

-Mentalla up, Diadem up: Either they spend time stalemating each other, or they both go for the other team, and things turn really chaotic. Slight edge to the Sentinels though ( Diadem zapping Eurostar is going to run into fewer Psych Limit obstacles )

 

As for which is most likely, I'd say probably the "both down" scenario is most likely, depending on exact range ( Diadem's odds of staying up go up the further the starting distance ).

[MitchellS]

Re: Eurostar vs Sentinels

 

One of the things I really hate about Champions is that mentalists are really too powerful in the game. Most people are going to be hit by them 95% of the time and they'll take damage 100% of the time. Superhero encounters shouldn't be about taking out the mentalist first, IMO. If there ever is a 6E I hope mental powers gets a complete rewrite.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Eurostar vs Sentinels

 

3. Mentalla *can't* telepathically coordinate her side; she doesn't have Psychic Link. At best' date=' she could relay between herself and another person via Telepathy, at the expense of not being able to attack.[/quote']

 

Not entirely true. After a mentalist successfully uses Telepathy on a target - any number of targets - he or she retains contact with the target whether or not he continues to pay Endurance, until the target succeeds at a Breakout Roll (assuming the GM requires a willing target of a Mental Power to make Breakout Rolls). Of course this would require Mentalla to use Attack Actions to link up with her teammates, which in a "meeting encounter" would be problematic... unless a GM allowed her to Rapid Fire her Telepathy. Even that would pose complications, such as the END she'd have to expend.

 

Lord "muddying up the waters" Liaden

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Eurostar vs Sentinels

 

One of the things I really hate about Champions is that mentalists are really too powerful in the game. Most people are going to be hit by them 95% of the time and they'll take damage 100% of the time. Superhero encounters shouldn't be about taking out the mentalist first' date=' IMO. If there ever is a 6E I hope mental powers gets a complete rewrite.[/quote']

 

There seems to be a lack of "middle ground" for mentalists, judging by people's stated experiences. Low-powered ones are too weak due to Breakout Rolls, while high-powered ones are overwhelming.

 

But we must beware lest this debate overwhelms this thread.

[Vondy]

Re: Eurostar vs Sentinels

 

So basically Eurostar's not quite as invincible as all the books make them sound.

 

5th Edition Eurostar isn't... the 4th Edition Team was much scarier and had more options (and members). The teams roster was cut down and changed, as were some of their power levels, but the 4th Edition reputation remained. From a continuity perspective, there's no reason the current Eurostar should be as feared as their reputation makes them out to be.

[Vondy]

Re: Eurostar vs Sentinels

 

One of the things I really hate about Champions is that mentalists are really too powerful in the game. Most people are going to be hit by them 95% of the time and they'll take damage 100% of the time. Superhero encounters shouldn't be about taking out the mentalist first' date=' IMO. If there ever is a 6E I hope mental powers gets a complete rewrite.[/quote']

 

In my Freedom Patrol game the tactic the players adopted when the other team had a mentalist was almost invariably: nail the opposing mentalist and then worry about everyone else - it turned into a nasty "smear the queer" scene sometimes. When the other team had the same idea they generally assigned one person to help the mentalist take down the opposing teams mentalist (if there was one) while everyone else played "protect the strategic asset." It turned into a very interesting game of ante up sometimes. I would sum it up this way: Powerful mentalists are like Queens on a chessboard.

[lapsedgamer]

Re: Eurostar vs Sentinels

 

One of the things I really hate about Champions is that mentalists are really too powerful in the game. Most people are going to be hit by them 95% of the time and they'll take damage 100% of the time. Superhero encounters shouldn't be about taking out the mentalist first' date=' IMO. If there ever is a 6E I hope mental powers gets a complete rewrite.[/quote']

 

I don't know. The source material has some examples of this type of thing. I remember the Titans always having to worry about Psimon. Mastermind took out all of the X-Men at one point. I also remember Xavier having the ability to take out just about anyone except other mentalists and Magneto, which was why they always kept him in the background of the book.

 

Are powerful mentalists so prevalent, that they need to be watered down, or is it up to the GM to keep them in check.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Eurostar vs Sentinels

 

One of the things I really hate about Champions is that mentalists are really too powerful in the game. Most people are going to be hit by them 95% of the time and they'll take damage 100% of the time. Superhero encounters shouldn't be about taking out the mentalist first' date=' IMO. If there ever is a 6E I hope mental powers gets a complete rewrite.[/quote']

 

A better solution: upping heroic Ego levels in general. In my opinion, pretty much anybody who actually becomes a super hero should end up with decently high Ego, and veterans even higher. A normalish level mentalist has alot harder time if he's having to fight people with 25 Ego rather than 15. That, combined with a careful interpretation of what level of effect a given command or illusion is, would reduce the 'instant KO' factor alot, and make the ( less hazardous to a group's success ) Ego Attack the better option generally.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Eurostar vs Sentinels

 

I don't know. The source material has some examples of this type of thing. I remember the Titans always having to worry about Psimon. Mastermind took out all of the X-Men at one point. I also remember Xavier having the ability to take out just about anyone except other mentalists and Magneto, which was why they always kept him in the background of the book.

 

Are powerful mentalists so prevalent, that they need to be watered down, or is it up to the GM to keep them in check.

 

*points up at earlier post*

 

If, to use Eurostar as an example, the typical opposition facing Eurostar ( that is actually supposed to have a fair fight against them ) had Ego ratings in the 20-30 range, Mentalla would have alot harder time in general, and less effort would need be focused on smashing her. She can still Stun those who have low CON, but her usage of Mind Control and Mental Illusion would typically have to be tactically careful Ego+10 or Ego+20 actions, rather than fight-ending Ego+30 results. It also means her hit rate would go down from "always" to "merely the majority of the time."

[Guest Goradin]

Re: Eurostar vs Sentinels

 

Mentalists are tough attackers but notoriously soft in the defense aspects of the game. If Mentalla was smart she would hang back and snipe steathily as one of 15d6 naked mod STR explosions would nail most of Eurostar non bricks into coma land. Smart players will always take down the mentalists as they can turn a team inside out with their ability to control your actions, fool you with illusions or sidestep standard defenses with Ego Blasts.

 

Lots of comic book villians have respectable to awesome attacks and soft chins and Eurostar seems to follow this model. Marvel is full of baddies like this who are strong on the attack but less worthy adversaries when they are on the defensive.

 

Sure 4E Eurostar was tougher but not one of them was even close to Diamond's power or the Sentinels power level. If you think they were, dream on.

[casualplayer]

Re: Eurostar vs Sentinels

 

Not entirely true. After a mentalist successfully uses Telepathy on a target - any number of targets - he or she retains contact with the target whether or not he continues to pay Endurance, until the target succeeds at a Breakout Roll (assuming the GM requires a willing target of a Mental Power to make Breakout Rolls). Of course this would require Mentalla to use Attack Actions to link up with her teammates, which in a "meeting encounter" would be problematic... unless a GM allowed her to Rapid Fire her Telepathy. Even that would pose complications, such as the END she'd have to expend.

 

Lord "muddying up the waters" Liaden

 

Why would she have not done this long before the battle? Like everytime Eurostar convenes?

 

I'm curious though. Is everyone still running Eurostar as they came out in 2002? I would imagine they would have gained ~200 xp each during that time. I haven't had a steady game going during that window of time but I used Eurostar fairly often when my campaign was lively and my 4th Ed. versions of them can't hardly be seen anymore thru the changes and alterations. My Professor Muerte has been through so many changes he's unrecognizable, and actually a threat.

 

2002 Eurostar is kinda flimsy, especially in the rDEF crazy HERO world of today. Feuermacher's best blast is a whopping 10d6; he's actually better off doing Damage Shield Move-Bys. White Flame was much scarier. Durak's 70 STR no longer seems all that impressive, as one of THE bricks of HERO sees his position on the charts plummet. Mentalla has all her eggs in one Multipower basket. Not sure why people don't think Scorpia's curare darts aren't impressive; just because she has to target unarmored areas with them doesn't mean that any rDEF stops them (unless there's some Long ruling somewhere.) Fiacho's acid bombs are pretty good at making target holes in armor anyway.

 

But take these guys and give them 5 years of xp and run them like they are an experienced paramilitary team and your players will have cause to fear.

[Runemaster]

Re: Eurostar vs Sentinels

 

Without seeing what the European superhero teams look like we can't really say. IMO' date=' Eurostar could take UNITY. The New Knights, London Watch, Nightwatch, and Vanguard might not be all the formidable, which would make Eurostar fairly tough in Europe. Maybe that's why they don't come to the US too often. [/quote']

 

Oh I don't know about not knowing how tough any teams out there are. Their character sheets probably look a bit different now but the London Watch doesn't have a single member it didn't have in 4e. There's tactics of course but CU makes it sound like the Watch can hold their own, at least before Visigoth and Pantera came along.

[MitchellS]

Re: Eurostar vs Sentinels

 

Are powerful mentalists so prevalent' date=' that they need to be watered down, or is it up to the GM to keep them in check.[/quote']

If the GM needs to keep something in check then it's probably a game flaw, IMO.

 

There are plenty of mentalists in the comics that don't make characters quake in the boots. Does anyone think Marvel Girl was too powerful for the rest of the X-Men [not counting the Phoenix issues]?