Eurostar vs Sentinels

[MitchellS]

Re: Eurostar vs Sentinels

 

I would probably charge 2 points for them. They're not that useful in the overall. Still I'd much rather see some concrete changes to the mental powers system; probably starting with everyone having figured mental defense and then going into constructing the ego attack from it's base form of energy blast and making based on ecv: +1.5 advantage.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Eurostar vs Sentinels

 

Honestly, if BOECV were +1 1/2, you probably wouldn't see many mentalists. While that does fit with the cost of AVLD, the problem is, in your system *everyone* would have mental defense, reducing the value of an 'AVLD' versus that defense. Plus, IMO, you'd still run into the problem of Mind Control and Mental Illusions being all-or-nothing instaKOs.

 

As an aside, though, I tend to think that having a power based on ECV rather than CV should be a +0 advantage. Yeah, Ego is cheaper to buy up than Dex, but is also doesn't provide Speed, and its just as cheap for the enemy to buy up, too. All the beneficial properties of using Ego rather than Dex as your base are highly contingent on circumstances, or are just as present for a CV based attack ( except that you don't have to pay points to be able to use your high Dex based CV ).

[lapsedgamer]

Re: Eurostar vs Sentinels

 

I would probably charge 2 points for them. They're not that useful in the overall. Still I'd much rather see some concrete changes to the mental powers system; probably starting with everyone having figured mental defense and then going into constructing the ego attack from it's base form of energy blast and making based on ecv: +1.5 advantage.

 

I always wondered why peopel didn't get some kind of Mental Defense--maybe based on EGO/3--for free. It wouldn't change the way the game worked too much and would assist the folks who didn't buy mental defense slightly. I don't know if that would break the Mental powers at higher EGO levels though. If you made Mental Defense add to EGO/3 instead of EGO/5, would that make EGO defense too cheap and nullify mentalists?

[MitchellS]

Re: Eurostar vs Sentinels

 

Honestly' date=' if BOECV were +1 1/2, you probably wouldn't see many mentalists. While that does fit with the cost of AVLD, the problem is, in your system *everyone* would have mental defense, reducing the value of an 'AVLD' versus that defense. Plus, IMO, you'd still run into the problem of Mind Control and Mental Illusions being all-or-nothing instaKOs.[/quote']

With my suggestion a 5d6 boecv would cost 62 points compared to a 5d6 ego attack costing 50 points. The slight price increase was deliberate to offset how useful they are in the game due to limited mental defense. As far as everyone having mental defense, the average ego is 10 so I don't think 2 points of mental defense is going to skew the results that much.

 

As an aside, though, I tend to think that having a power based on ECV rather than CV should be a +0 advantage. Yeah, Ego is cheaper to buy up than Dex, but is also doesn't provide Speed, and its just as cheap for the enemy to buy up, too. All the beneficial properties of using Ego rather than Dex as your base are highly contingent on circumstances, or are just as present for a CV based attack ( except that you don't have to pay points to be able to use your high Dex based CV ).

The fact that it doesn't grant speed is why ego costs 2 points instead of 3.

[MitchellS]

Re: Eurostar vs Sentinels

 

I always wondered why peopel didn't get some kind of Mental Defense--maybe based on EGO/3--for free. It wouldn't change the way the game worked too much and would assist the folks who didn't buy mental defense slightly. I don't know if that would break the Mental powers at higher EGO levels though. If you made Mental Defense add to EGO/3 instead of EGO/5' date=' would that make EGO defense too cheap and nullify mentalists?[/quote']

I don't know. It'd have to be playtested. No matter what system is used it'd need to be playtested. I think the ultimate goal is just not to make every mentalist come off as if they're Professor X.

[Cardinal]

Re: Eurostar vs Sentinels

 

As an aside' date=' though, I tend to think that having a power based on ECV rather than CV should be a +0 advantage. Yeah, Ego is cheaper to buy up than Dex, but is also doesn't provide Speed, and its just as cheap for the enemy to buy up, too. All the beneficial properties of using Ego rather than Dex as your base are highly contingent on circumstances, or are just as present for a CV based attack ( except that you don't have to pay points to be able to use your high Dex based CV ).[/quote']

 

I would agree to the extent that it is an ECV attack versus normal DCV (i.e. to simulate something like telekinetically hurling objects at a target which they avoid with their quickness). However, EDCVs tend to be low enough that I think the based on ECV v. EDCV should be some sort of advantage as virtually everyone buys up Dex but only a small group buy up ego.

 

I also agree with the proposal of automatic MD as a figured characteristic.

 

Edit: I forgot to add that I do think a mental attack should have to pay for things like No Range Mod, Line of Sight, etc. if you opt to go for a +0 for ECV based.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Eurostar vs Sentinels

 

Keep in mind that whatever adjustments are made to Mental Powers will have to be either modular or scalable to different genres. What may make them more "balanced" for a supers game may seriously nerf low-powered mentalists in a sci-fi or weird conspiracy game.

 

Frankly, between Breakout Rolls, levels of effect, Psych Lims, and the ability to Haymaker Mental Powers, I haven't found mentalists to be problematic in any of my Fifth Edition games, except when there's a major difference in Damage Class between the mentalist and his victims (which applies whenever opponents are significantly more/less powerful), or in specific circumstances such as telepaths in a mystery scenario. As has been mentioned on this thread, just buying up EGO a few points can make a real difference.

[MitchellS]

Re: Eurostar vs Sentinels

 

Keep in mind that whatever adjustments are made to Mental Powers will have to be either modular or scalable to different genres. What may make them more "balanced" for a supers game may seriously nerf low-powered mentalists in a sci-fi or weird conspiracy game.

Sorry, but I find that meaningless. We already have published examples of non-supers genres where you can incorporate spell cost modifiers. If you can divide the final cost of a spell by 3 for the Turakian Age you can do the same for any other genre; because once you allow something like that the actual cost of the power is meaningless anyway.

 

Frankly, between Breakout Rolls, levels of effect, Psych Lims, and the ability to Haymaker Mental Powers, I haven't found mentalists to be problematic in any of my Fifth Edition games, except when there's a major difference in Damage Class between the mentalist and his victims (which applies whenever opponents are significantly more/less powerful), or in specific circumstances such as telepaths in a mystery scenario. As has been mentioned on this thread, just buying up EGO a few points can make a real difference.

The biggest culprit is ego attack. An "average" 6d ego attack is going to do 21 stun against foes who almost always have 0 mental defense and are probably going to have ecvs in the 3-6 range. That makes the average mentalist in the 14- to hit [90%] and doing around stunning damage from every average attack.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Eurostar vs Sentinels

 

Sorry' date=' but I find that meaningless. We already have published examples of non-supers genres where you can incorporate spell cost modifiers. If you can divide the final cost of a spell by 3 for the Turakian Age you can do the same for any other genre; because once you allow something like that the actual cost of the power is meaningless anyway.[/quote']

 

If that's the appropriate way to deal with the issue then you can just do the reverse, multiplying the cost in supers games. Problem solved.

[MitchellS]

Re: Eurostar vs Sentinels

 

If that's the appropriate way to deal with the issue then you can just do the reverse' date=' multiplying the cost in supers games. Problem solved. [/quote']

The difference being that in one direction [decreasing for fantasy] there is an established precedent which makes sense due to decreased starting points. There's no such precedent for the reverse.

 

A listing of powers are fairly useless if you're forced to adjust the costs genre by genre. That seems to take away from the toolkit concept, IMO, but that's a whole different argument.

[incrdbil]

Re: Eurostar vs Sentinels

 

 

 

The biggest culprit is ego attack. An "average" 6d ego attack is going to do 21 stun against foes who almost always have 0 mental defense and are probably going to have ecvs in the 3-6 range. That makes the average mentalist in the 14- to hit [90%] and doing around stunning damage from every average attack.

 

Ego attack does rock against the undefended. Once a few handful of points are chcuked at it thoughIt makes you yearn for a good old fashioned EB.

 

And god forbid if your mentalist wants combat options other than ego attack.

 

However, out of combat, a mentalist can be terrifying. Take a traditional multipower, and copy each mental power he has with a much smaller dice but a cumulative, and completely invisible one..Heck, I've got a mentalist right now who views letting combat occur at all as a failure on his part somewhat.

 

If villains and heroes didnt cut theior ego scores for points savings, the accuracy factor would be mitigated greatly. But outside of mental powers, what good is an EGO roll in many genres? It has virtually no use in a superheroic capmaign other than mental CV and breakout rolls, and for some reason many players adopt the "if I cant be certainyl immune I may as well be totally vulnerable" approach to EGO.

 

EDIT: maybe this beloings in the camp of costing strength more per point of twenty: EGO below 20 costs 1 point, opver 20 costs more. Ego scores of a decent defenive status liek 18 would be more common.

 

Of course, with the ease of breakout rolls, the current mentlaist combat optiosn dwindle further under that plan.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Eurostar vs Sentinels

 

Some ideas:

 

-Get rid of the usage of Presence to defend against Presence Attacks

 

-Make resistance to Stunning be "Con or Ego, whichever is higher"

[Peregrine]

Re: Eurostar vs Sentinels

 

Some ideas:

 

-Get rid of the usage of Presence to defend against Presence Attacks

 

-Make resistance to Stunning be "Con or Ego, whichever is higher"

 

Not only would this encourage higher EGO, but the latter would allow (for example) a mentalist who is not physically superhuman ("legendary") to survive longer in combat.

[casualplayer]

Re: Eurostar vs Sentinels

 

I have to get C:NotW before being completely hip to the Sentinels but I think Eurostar is being sold short. Fiacho would know the Sentinels' membership cold and just how to work them. He would know the weak link in the team and also know that Diamond, apparently, is out of harm's reach. Bricks you can't hurt you evade and disregard, getting into close combat with their teammates so the brick can't use AE tricks. Pantera and Scorpia are light cavalry, not shock troops, and they would Stealth out waiting for an opportunity for a killing blow. Mentalla works best on intelligence gathering, subterfuge and sabotage. Le Sone and Feuermacher are air cav. Durak and der Westgote are the damage sponges and heavy hitters.

 

For example, Team X encounters Eurostar. Durak and der Westgote go into their noisy carnival acts making a huge PRE attack of "Bring it on." Team X wants to bring it on so all but the most tactically minded on the team focus on these two, burning attacks on the two best able to withstand them. Meanwhile Fiacho is relaying telepathic orders through Mentalla while she is simultaneously Mind Controlling the slowest opponent to go after Eurostar's fastest, Pantera. Pantera leads the dupe around the field, knowing to stay just out of reach. Le Sone and Feuermacher get some height and set up a rotating perimeter so any KB from successful attacks will send opponents downward and inward. Scorpia goes on the hunt for an inviting target. Fiacho waits for an opportunity to strike a decisive blow and finish someone off.

 

Teamwork isn't just for the good guys.

 

Ok, now I have the book and have given it the thorough read (not just the miss Proteus' LS casual scan read) and two things really favor the Sentinels: Black Rose's Flush Villains to Lythrum power and Dr. Vox's complete owning of Ultrasonique. 75% Damage Resistance to Sonics?! How exactly is Howler an As Powerful Hunted for Dr. Vox when Dr. V has 75% DR to everything Howler (and Ultrasonique) can do?

 

I still favor Eurostar in any situation that they can threaten hostages or irreplacable property but the Sentinels would make for a tough match.

[incrdbil]

Re: Eurostar vs Sentinels

 

 

I still favor Eurostar in any situation that they can threaten hostages or irreplacable property but the Sentinels would make for a tough match.

 

Unless that situation involves elaborate traps, instead of diverting a team member, I dont think they can pull it off. They are outclassed. but then, thats the eurostar of 5 years ago, vs the Sentinels of today. So weaken the Sentinels a bit, or strengthen Eurostar, depending on the age of your campaign.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Eurostar vs Sentinels

 

Ok' date=' now I have the book and have given it the thorough read (not just the miss Proteus' LS casual scan read) and two things really favor the Sentinels: Black Rose's [i']Flush Villains to Lythrum [/i]power and Dr. Vox's complete owning of Ultrasonique. 75% Damage Resistance to Sonics?! How exactly is Howler an As Powerful Hunted for Dr. Vox when Dr. V has 75% DR to everything Howler (and Ultrasonique) can do?

 

I still favor Eurostar in any situation that they can threaten hostages or irreplacable property but the Sentinels would make for a tough match.

 

Good point re: Howler.

 

Black Rose's UAA EDM is not as useful as you might think, however. It sends the victim to the corresponding location in Lythrum. This could be an entirely useful battlefield removal. . . or a catastrophically stupid move if, say, the corresponding point is inside a city. So, in Sentinels vs Eurostar, its usage is limited. . . at least one *Eurostar.* Sending any *hostages* to Lythrum might not be a bad move. . .

[Metaphysician]

Re: Eurostar vs Sentinels

 

Unless that situation involves elaborate traps' date=' instead of diverting a team member, I dont think they can pull it off. They are outclassed. but then, thats the eurostar of 5 years ago, vs the Sentinels of today. So weaken the Sentinels a bit, or strengthen Eurostar, depending on the age of your campaign.[/quote']

 

Or you could, you know, have Eurostar lose. Villains do do that, sometimes.

[Niles]

Re: Eurostar vs Sentinels

 

How exactly is Howler an As Powerful Hunted for Dr. Vox when Dr. V has 75% DR to everything Howler (and Ultrasonique) can do?

She also has 75% rDR vs Sonics. She Absorbs Sonic attacks too. How they hurt each other at all I don't know.

[Niles]

Re: Eurostar vs Sentinels

 

They are outclassed. but then' date=' thats the eurostar of 5 years ago, vs the Sentinels of today.[/quote']

 

I think Eurostar was probably already peaked in power as presented in CKC.

First of all Fiacho and Ultrasonique aren't getting any younger and they both are at least in their 50s. Ultrasonique can probably weather it better as he depends more on gadgets than on athleticism in a fight and doesn't have that political background inhibiting his ability to benefit from "comics time". But Fiacho is only getting slower, and there isn't much you can learn about fighting in 25 years as a Superterrorist that you can't learn in 20.

 

Durak is solid. He's on the team out of personal loyalty to Fiacho.

 

Fuermacher is in it for the money, and the team isn't even enough to pay the bills now. If the team suffers a signifigant downturn in fortunes, or he gets a better offer from one of his side jobs, or if Scorpia leaves, then he's gone.

 

The situation between Scorpia and Mentalla is unstable. Unless one of them leaves the team first it'll blow up and one of them will have to go even if they both live through it.

 

Scorpia is a perfect fit for Eurostar, she epitomizes the murderously pseudopolitical nature of the team. She's evil european Hawkeye to Fiacho's evil european Captain America. She's only leaving if She's killed or forced out in a confrontation with Mentalla, and clever manipulator that he is, Fiacho probably senses that if he kicked her out Fuermacher would follow.

 

Mentalla is more likely out than Scorpia. After all this time if Dr. D attacked her after she left the team it would imply that he was intimidated by Eurostar. The Destroyer don't play that way. Mentalla is in a much better position than Scorpia to know what a problem their "relationship" is but if she tried to resolve thing preemptively Fiacho would have to try to kill her to hold the rest of the team together. As the closest thing to a rational political thinker on the team she's the most likely to realize the team is in a worse position vis-a-vis achieving their goals than they were when they started (heck many of them wouldn't even care). If I were updating Eurostar I'd have her ditch the team for some newly formed Masters-of Evil/Injustice-League-like organization of preexisting supervillians that would prove unstable in the long run then have her bouncing around freelance with an eye out for a new team. She might even end up on an all-female Gravitar led team for a while.

 

The Champions Universe needs more Solid high end Villain teams. I think part of the reason people are so invested in Eurostar is is because it's what we've got.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Eurostar vs Sentinels

 

The Champions Universe needs more Solid high end Villain teams. I think part of the reason people are so invested in Eurostar is is because it's what we've got.

 

Scott Bennie issued a challenge to the Champs community, Build Me A Villain Team out of published CU characters that could threaten the world and the mightiest heroes; but the results were mixed. Maybe now that News Of The World has introduced some new villains we should revive that challenge.

[casualplayer]

Re: Eurostar vs Sentinels

 

Scott Bennie issued a challenge to the Champs community' date=' Build Me A Villain Team out of published CU characters that could threaten the world and the mightiest heroes; but the results were mixed. Maybe now that News Of The World has introduced some new villains we should revive that challenge.

 

That's funny. I almost brought up the same thread. I wish Scott had stipulated "It's Ok to gut Eurostar's roster" when he was asking for suggestions. I would have nabbed Mentalla and Durak so fast....

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Eurostar vs Sentinels

 

That's funny. I almost brought up the same thread. I wish Scott had stipulated "It's Ok to gut Eurostar's roster" when he was asking for suggestions. I would have nabbed Mentalla and Durak so fast....

 

You may detach villains from other teams to join up.

 

[Andrew Cermak]

Re: Eurostar vs Sentinels

 

Maybe now that News Of The World has introduced some new villains we should revive that challenge.

 

Of course, VVV is due any day now and will certainly add some new wrinkles of its own...