Combat Skill Levels

[VictorVonDoom]

I have a bit of a problem with Combat skill levels

 

will you please give me some examples

CP: 150 points usage ; no powers

Disadvantage (what is relevant to the character)

 

you may pick the profession you want , the age( era)

 

also how do they work ? please explain your example fighting any foe; Foe must be also be created to serve as dummy

same points same era where the character originated

 

as soldier vs goon

as knight vs bandit, ogre, wizard

as alien vs robot

as starhero vs alien

etc

[Steve Long]

This isn't really a rules question so much as it is an "example" question, so I've moved it to the "HERO System Discussion" board in the hope some kind soul out there can offer an example or two and save me the time so I can keep workin' on The Fantasy Hero Grimoire.

[Tom McCarthy]

Assume Jon Carter is a human soldier/adventurer, with combat statistics along the lines of:

 

DEX 18, base OCV 6, base DCV 6, STR 15, +2 skill levels with hand to hand combat, and armed with a sword (1D6+1 HKA)

 

He is battling a lightly armoured, but well armed knight aboard a mount, say along these lines:

 

Knight: DEX 11, base OCV 4, base DCV 4, STR 13, spear (1D6+1 HKA) or crossbow (1D6 RKA)

Mount: DEX 14, base OCV 5, base DCV 5, STR 13, 1/2D6 HKA bite (1D6+1 w/STR).

 

On phase 12, Carter attempts to strike down the mount, but he's being cagey and defensive (levels to DCV). He attacks with the sword, with OCV 6 and DCV 8 against hand to hand attacks. He strikes the mount, and does a small amount of damage. Against his DCV of 8, the knight and mount are hard pressed to hit him in return.

 

Carter tries the same move on his next phase, and again has little effect, and the mount gets lucky and bites him. Bleeding from the wound, he decides to be more aggressive, and shifts his levels to increasing damage. Normally he slashes for 2D6+1 HKA, he adds the levels to get an extra DC (2 1/2 D6 HKA), and so will do extra damage. This time the knight gets lucky, and spears him in the arm.

 

Carter's in trouble now, but he has brought down the mount. He puts levels into DCV, but the knight draws the crossbow, and Carter's levels offer no protection against ranged attacks...

[VictorVonDoom]

How are the characters build as such?

 

How do you come to those stats?

 

Why did you know a crossbow does that thing or even a broadsword?

 

Why can't Carters levels protect him from ranged attack? If he would how would he otherwise equiped (new combatlevels/weapons/items) or battled?

[Tom Carman]

Originally posted by VictorVonDoom

How are the characters build as such?

 

How do you come to those stats?

Because those the the stats and skills that the player spent his points on, and how the GM designed his NPCs (Non-Player Characters).

 

Why did you know a crossbow does that thing or even a broadsword?

There are charts of weapons, which indicate the amount of damage they inflict. The character has also increase the damage to varying degrees by adding their strength to a hand-to-hand attack like a club or a sword.

 

Why can't Carters levels protect him from ranged attack? If he would how would he otherwise equiped (new combatlevels/weapons/items) or battled?

Combat levels cost different numbers of points, depending on what they can be used for. Generally, the more useful the levels, the more they apply to, and the more they cost. Carter's levels indicate his skill with fighting hand to hand: hitting (OCV), hurting (extra damage), and evading (DCV). For protection against ranged attacks, Carter could buy levels for ranged combat (representing a steady aim for OCV or spotting someone aiming at him in time to dodge for DCV). Carter could buy levels that only provide DCV against all attacks, hand-to-hand or ranged, but can't increase OCV or damage. Or he could just buy the more expensive combat levels, good for both hand-to-hand and ranged combats.

[Lord Liaden]

Completely off-topic, but...

 

Victor, I thought you might appreciate an avatar more clearly resembling your namesake, so I offer you this one I found:

[VictorVonDoom]

Thx for the avatar but...

 

I don't want to be not too negative but i like mine better !!

 

Tom,

 

I am still not getting it...

Is there list of CSL you can pick from?

The handbook only went vaguely (for me) over it...

 

Maybe i understood the way Heroes attack in Heroes wrong?

Does it requires a skill check?

 

 

 

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Thx for the avatar but...

 

Originally posted by VictorVonDoom

I don't want to be not too negative but i like mine better !!

 

No problem - it's your face.

[Snarf]

Re: Thx for the avatar but...

 

Originally posted by VictorVonDoom

I don't want to be not too negative but i like mine better !!

 

Tom,

 

I am still not getting it...

Is there list of CSL you can pick from?

The handbook only went vaguely (for me) over it...

 

Maybe i understood the way Heroes attack in Heroes wrong?

Does it requires a skill check?

Yup, there is a table of the 4 different types of CSLs you can choose from next to the section about how CSLs work. You don't exactly use a skill check in combat. You roll against your Combat Value, which can be modified by Combat Skill Levels. Your Offensive Combat Value and Defensive Combat Value is derived from your dexterity.

 

If there is anyone that plays Hero in your area, try to get them to show you how these rules work in person. This stuff can get pretty complicated and I find a live demonstration to be much clearer than a typed explanation.

[Farkling]

Ack! He's in Belgium.....

I don't know anyone in Belgium.

 

Victor...is English your native language?

 

IF not, maybe we can find someone clearer?

[VictorVonDoom]

my language is dutch (remember Belgium has three languages: german, dutch, french but english is second nature to me)

 

Do you need to buy defence levels (defending against attacks)?

[Snarf]

You can if you want to.

 

3 and 5 point skill levels can be applied to either offense or defense, but only for the type of combat they are bought for. For example, Combat Skill Levels in Karate could add OCV to your Karate attacks or DCV to protect you from your enemies Karate attacks.

 

8 point skill levels can be applied to attacks or defenses of any type.

 

You can also buy 5 point skill levels that are always DCV and apply against anything.

 

Try reading the section on combat skill levels a couple more times, especially the examples. If you haven't read the chapter on combat yet, it helps to read that. I was confused at first too, but once it's figured out you can use it really quickly and easily.

[Pattern Ghost]

I'll take a crack at it.

 

First, read the combat section a couple of times. Just the basic section. Ignore everything after the header for Optional whatever. (I forgot the exact section title, and my book is in a box b/c I moved).

 

Ok, once you've read that, read the section on combat skill levels again.

 

The short version: Combat is resolved by the following roll:

 

11 + OCV - DCV

 

You want to roll under the number you get from this basic formula.

 

Here's how you get the formula:

 

11 <-- this number is a given. It's around a 50% chance on 3d6, so it's the basis for the roll. [Edit: Actually, I think it's about 62%]

 

OCV <-- This is the attacker's Offensive Combat Value. This is derived from the base Combat Value (CV), which is DEX/3. (Rounding applies.) However, the OCV and DCV are modified by a number of factors, including skill levels.

 

DCV <-- This is the Defender's Defensive Combat Value. This is arrived at based on Combat Value (CV) (Dex/3). It's also modified by a number of factors, including skill levels.

 

What this formula does is give you a base chance to land a damaging (or at least potentially damaging) blow, and have the chance modified by the relative skill (CV) of the attackers, as well as tactics, terrain, and other modfiers used to adjust OCV and DCV.

 

Let's look at some modifiers used to calculate OCV and DCV:

 

If you look up the combat manuevers list in the rulebook, you'll find good old Offensive Strike, a martial maneuver. Among the other information (time taken, half phase, damage modifier, +4DCs, etc.), you have an OCV and DCV column. There's a penalty of -2 to OCV and a bonus of +1 to DCV for the Offensive Strike. So, if your character has a DEX of let's say 14, he'd have a base CV of 5 (14/3, rounds up). If he used an Offensive Strike, he'd have an OCV of 3 (5-2) and a DCV of 6 (5+1). One note here, you have a set of Basic Maneuvers, which everyone can do. Offensive Strike is a Marial Maneuver, which you would have to pay points to buy in order to use. (See Martial Arts under Skills).

 

Now, another modifier is Range. If you're further away, it's harder to hit your target. So, there's a chart of OCV penalties for range. Actually, right in there somewhere is a whole list of combat modifiers, and since you weren't asking about those, we'll move on.

 

Now, we get to Combat Skill Levels. Read that part again. There are several different CSLs, with different point values.

 

2 pts: You can use this for ONLY increasing OCV with a single attack.

 

3 pts. You can use a 3 point level to increase your OCV or DCV with a group of three attacks, or a tight group, such as a Multipower or Martial Art. You can ALSO use 3 point levels to increase your damage. You can probably do something else with them, but since I don't have the book out, and I've had a rough day, heck if I can remember. But increasing your odds to hit and your damage are by far the most fun to be had here. There is ONE catch, however. You can only use these levels to defend against the same type of attack as they were purchased for. So, if you took some 3 point levels with melee attacks, you can only use them for DCV vs. melee attacks. I'm not looking right now, so I'm not sure if you can use them vs. ranged attacks if you bought them for a group of ranged attacks or not. A check of the book or the FAQ will help you there.

 

5 pts. These levels work just like 3 point levels, except for two things. The first thing is that they can be used for very broad categories of attacks, such as Hand to Hand or Ranged. The other thing is that you can buy DCV only levels, which defend against any attack with, but can't use for OCV or for increasing damage.

 

8 pts. Work just like 3 and 5 point levels, but can be used for ANY attack you have, and can apply to DCV vs. any attack. These are pretty cool, but sometimes 3 point or 5 point levels are more cost effective.

 

Now, as to how stats are derived, and characters created, that's a different can of worms. This will depend on a lot of things, including guidelines given by the GM, the points you have to spend, etc. If you don't have a GM handy to give guidance, the best suggestion is to look in one of the Genre books, such as Champions, Star Hero, or the forthcoming Fantasy Hero. Also, there's the free Genre by Genre PDF file here on the Hero site. The characters there will give you some good ideas of what the norms are. (There are no norms, but this will provide you with something close.)

 

Hope this helps.

[Pattern Ghost]

I forgot one of the key things that's cool about CSLs: You can move them around! So, you can opt to fight more offensively, more defensively, etc. That's where a lot of tactics come in.

[VictorVonDoom]

move them around?

 

Thx : that is alot ...and finally a good crack at it

[Pattern Ghost]

Originally posted by VictorVonDoom

move them around?

 

Thx : that is alot ...and finally a good crack at it

 

Move them around, as in, you can assign your levels (except for the 2 point type and the 5 point DCV only type) to either OCV or DCV from round to round.

 

For example: If you have a really high DEX, say 30, you have a base CV of 10, which is good. Now, without levels, you get that as your OCV and your DCV, modified by maneuvers and by the rest of the combat modifiers. However, if you had a lower DEX and CSLs, say a 24 DEX, CV 8, and 4 CSLs (lets say they're 8 pt levels b/c you can do everything with those), you can either have 10 OCV and 10 DCV, or 12 OCV and 8 DCV, or 8 OCV and 12 DCV, or any other combination that uses those four levels. Of course, there are matters of point efficiency, and that high DEX also lets you act first, and increases your DEX skill rolls, etc. But, most games have a cap on characteristics, especially DEX, so you can usually do quite a bit of tuning within your character concept. In most games, the base CV spread isn't that far apart, so the versitility of levels comes in handy.

 

The rules for when you can assign the levels are detailed in the main rulebook, but basically, you can reassign your CSLs when it's your phase or when you abort (I think, read the book on this), and it's a 0 phase (free) action. Your CSLs stay assigned until your next action phase.

 

Suppose you have a base CV of 6, and let's say 3 levles with all combat. On your phase, you make a cautious attack at, oh, let's say a troll, with your levels assigned to DCV, giving you an OCV of 6 and a DCV of 9. On the troll's phase, he takes a swipe at you, and due to your high DCV, misses. You figure this is a good strategy and do the same thing the next turn. However, on the troll's next turn, he's gotten tired of being harrassed by the fidgety little human, and picks up a large log to bash you with, effectively an area of effect attack. Now the troll has to hit your hex, which is DCV 0 because you're adjacent. So, you decide you don't want to be smashed and abort your next phase to a Dive For Cover. Since you need to roll to hit your target hex (if I remember the dive for cover rule correctly), you decide to shift those 3 levels into OCV.

 

Basically, by moving around your CSLs in combat, along with chosing your combat maneuvers, you can play a very tactical game very easily.

 

Hope that helps clarify what I mean by move them around.

[VictorVonDoom]

i don't got it quite yet...combat levels is such complicated

[Talon]

My turn.

 

Combat Skill Levels can add to OCV, DCV, or damage, but you have to choose each Phase.

 

If a character has 3 Combat Skill Levels, they could set all of them to OCV and get +3 OCV; or set all of them to DCV and get +3 DCV; or set 1 to OCV and 2 to damage and get +1 OCV, +1 DC damage.

 

Any better?

[VictorVonDoom]

thx !!

[Tom Carman]

Originally posted by Geoff Speare

Combat Skill Levels can add to OCV, DCV, or damage, but you have to choose each Phase.

Hit better.

Hit harder.

Be harder to hit.

 

The more things the CSL applies to, the more it costs.

[VictorVonDoom]

How far can you go in creating a character in the beginning with buying CSL?

[caris]

Originally posted by VictorVonDoom

How far can you go in creating a character in the beginning with buying CSL?

 

The rules do not really put a cap on how many skill levels you can buy at character creation. As always, the GM may impose limitations on character creation if they wish. Often the GM doesn’t limit the number of Combat Skill Levels a character may buy, but will set caps on OCV, DCV, and/or damage. When the campaign does have such caps, the player may not assign skill levels to exceed those caps, even if they had been allowed to buy enough skill levels to exceed the caps.

 

To give an extremely simplified example:

 

Let us assume that I am a player in a campaign with an OCV cap of 10, a damage cap of 8 Damage Classes, and no cap on DCV, and my character has a DEX of 18, a 7D6 Energy Blast, and 5 3pt Combat Skill that can be applied to the Energy Blast. My character’s DEX gives him a base OCV of 6.

 

This means that:

I can never assign more than 4 skill levels to OCV unless the GM raises the cap.

I can only assign 2 skill levels to raise the damage of the Energy Blast.

I can assign as many of the skill levels as I wish to DCV.

[VictorVonDoom]

must you select one combatskill for each power that shoots, ... at someone or does something similar? or if such power hasn't a combatskill does it fall back on 11 + OCV - DCV

?

[caris]

Originally posted by VictorVonDoom

must you select one combatskill for each power that shoots, ... at someone or does something similar? or if such power hasn't a combatskill does it fall back on 11 + OCV - DCV

?

 

I’m not sure I’m following your question. Each of the four levels of Combat Skill Levels allows for greater and greater number of situations where it can be used. Let us try another example:

 

I’m playing a Super – Hero that has a multipower with a variety of attacks in it including an Energy Blast and a Flash. My character also has the following Combat Skill Levels: a 2 pt level with the Energy Blast, a 3 pt level with the Multipower, a 5 pt level with all ranged combat, and a 8 pt level with all combat. When using the Energy Blast my character can apply all 4 skill levels. When using the Flash, my character can only use 3 of the levels. When throwing something at another character, my character can only use 2 levels. Finally, my character can only use one of the skill levels when attempting to punch another character.

 

I hope that helps.

[Talon]

Originally posted by VictorVonDoom

must you select one combatskill for each power that shoots, ... at someone or does something similar? or if such power hasn't a combatskill does it fall back on 11 + OCV - DCV

?

 

Your second sentence is right -- you don't need Combat Skill Levels to hit something, they just make it easier. If you don't have Combat Skill Levels for a particular attack, you just use the 11 + OCV - DCV formula for hitting.

 

Many superhero characters have no Combat Skill Levels.

 

As for how many Combat Skill Levels you can buy: most GMs will either limit a characters maximum OCV and DCV, or will examine each character on a case-by-case basis. Since each campaign is different, there isn't one rule for how many you can buy.