Hero system complexity

[ghost-angel]

Re: Hero system complexity

 

(Incidentally: I have a suspicion someone is reading that and thinking' date=' "GAZZA's an idiot: here's how you do the attack rolls without revealing the DCV, and we never bother with END in our FH game, ..." - I'm not unaware of house rules to this effect, and use a fairly involved version of the former myself, but that's not the RAW that a prospective newcomer to Hero would see).[/quote']

 

but they are actually. HERO comes with all kinds of "Or you could do it this way" options. One of them happens to be "ignore END" (FREd p286; 5ER p425; under ENDURANCE Rules).

 

Really a lot of the problem on "how it's done in Hero" I have found is not what's written in the book, but players who have been around since Champions II or earlier teaching other players and haven't fully and completely read the rules as they currently stand. I've seen a number of Hero GMs use old rules (that are often times themselves wrong or misinterpreted to begin with) and pass them on and the new players think there's just this megaton level of complexity.

 

All the options, alternative methods and such in the books - those are RAW as far as I'm concerned. A lot of the book isn't complex rules, but alternates to the same rule.

 

As for the complexity in combat options, I put those on the same shelf as trying to plan a D20 Character for a Prestige Class, you practically have to plan ahead starting with Level 1 most of the time.

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Hero system complexity

 

While I don't know the original context of that specific conversation' date=' I still stand by my assertion that such a comment most commonly means, "I could learn how to play HERO, but it's too much effort and thus not worth it - it's just too complicated."[/quote']

 

 

You're probably right I least really hope so. it sure didn't seem like it but you're probably right. I can understand that at least.

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Hero system complexity

 

The complexity of Hero isn't in the math. And a lot of the issue isn't in setting up your own world - after all every single person I know who GMs D&D either sets up their own world or tweaks another to the point it's basically new. They tweak character classes, alter magic, shift spells around - all kinds of crazy stuff.

 

No - the complexity of Hero comes from it's core tenant: Reason From Effect.

 

Either you grok it, or you don't.

 

You want to do something, you kind of know what you want but you look at that massive array of Powers, Skills, Advantages and Limitations and suddenly none of it makes any sense at all.

 

It's not figuring out the math, it's figuring out what the heck you need to do to make what you want.

 

I've seen people go years and their basic thought it "wait, what?" and I've seen people pick up the book for the first time and go "Aw yeah, gimme an hour I'll be back with a character."

 

 

sounds plausible but certainly puts validity to certain people are better suited to certain kinds of thinking than others. its probably a flaw in me that I can't quite grasp not being able to think like that.

[GAZZA]

Re: Hero system complexity

 

but they are actually. HERO comes with all kinds of "Or you could do it this way" options. One of them happens to be "ignore END" (FREd p286; 5ER p425; under ENDURANCE Rules).

Once you include optional rules for Hero, it's only fair to include optional rules for d20 as well. Those are legion, as you might expect.

 

I'm not knocking the optional rules of either; it's just that if you're trying to compare one thing to another then simplifying the model slightly (by considering only core rules) seems fair.

 

Really a lot of the problem on "how it's done in Hero" I have found is not what's written in the book, but players who have been around since Champions II or earlier teaching other players and haven't fully and completely read the rules as they currently stand. I've seen a number of Hero GMs use old rules (that are often times themselves wrong or misinterpreted to begin with) and pass them on and the new players think there's just this megaton level of complexity.

Unfortunately that argument - while completely true (I myself am often discovering subtle things all the time) - feeds into the "Hero is more complex" argument. If even decade-long veterans still get things wrong, then what real hope has a newbie got?

 

The page count of 5ER and PH + DMG are comparable (I'm not sure which of the two is actually bigger, but there wouldn't be that much in it). However, a large percentage of the DMG (the thicker of the two books) is given over to magic item descriptions, while a large percentage of the PH is given over to spell descriptions; relatively little of 5ER is "example characters" or "equipment". A power description in Hero is, in effect, a rule; a spell description in the PH is more akin to a sidebar example in Hero. So even if PH + DMG comprises more actual pages than 5ER does, it has a lot less of those pages devoted to rules.

 

That's why a veteran Hero player might have to look up what the standard value for the limitation "Skin Contact Only" is, and why some veteran Hero players don't know off the top of their head what the standard knockback rules are/whether Succor has a limit/the details of the Trigger advantage/whether you get +1d6 or 2d6 for violent Presence attacks/etc. D&D players look stuff up just as frequently, but they're looking up spell descriptions and the like rather than rules.

 

Again, this isn't a bad thing - I personally don't see why one would aim for a game where the rulebook was rarely required at the table - but I can see why reasonable people would conclude that Hero was more complex.

 

As for the complexity in combat options, I put those on the same shelf as trying to plan a D20 Character for a Prestige Class, you practically have to plan ahead starting with Level 1 most of the time.

Agreed, except that evidently this complaint got back to Wizards so they introduced the "retraining" rules in PH2.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Hero system complexity

 

Unfortunately that argument - while completely true (I myself am often discovering subtle things all the time) - feeds into the "Hero is more complex" argument. If even decade-long veterans still get things wrong' date=' then what real hope has a newbie got?[/quote']

 

The same chance anyone has of completely understanding Attack Of Opportunity?

 

 

I would venture to say a newbie to either system has a better chance of understanding by ignoring veteran players of both systems and reading the rules themselves. I know too many gamers who go "but, I don't wanna read th book!" for ANY system.

 

Which leaves things up to either the veteran player whose got a few things wrong, or the one person at the table who does read the book - and it's not always the GM. And we look down on "Rules Lawyers" because they read the book and learned the games ins and outs ... baffling.

[JmOz]

Re: Hero system complexity

 

Congrats on having a ten year old that could be taught the Hero System. That being said - it's easier to teach a ten year old something than a twenty-five year old, also just because your ten year old could learn it doesn't mean all ten year olds can. It's also easier to learn something when you are being taught by a patient and loving parent than by some guy in your average gaming group who you see once or twice a week.

My wife, who can run an office like a swiss watch, sight read music, do our taxes without software, track every birthday and aniversary for all of our friends and family, and memorize entire operas in foreign languages she doesn't speak, can not learn the system because it's too complicated. It's not that she hasn't tried or that she's bad at math.

I think Ghost-Angel has it right - The first time I played Champions (1985ish), I thought it was the most idiotic game I'd seen. We were using the pre-fab characters and I had Crusader. I couldn't hurt the guy we were fighting so I scanned down through the character sheet and saw that I had Acrobatics and Boot Jets. Perfect - I run up to the villian, do a half flip so my feet were near his face, and fire off the jets. Everyone should know what happened next. It wasn't that it didn't work that bugged me during that first session, it was that it could never work - I understood the system instantly but it still seemed stupid that the bulk of your cleverness needs to be front loaded.

 

 

In my game I would have said "for every 5" of flight you get a d6 sight flash, this time, if you want to make it a normal tacktic your going to need to spend some xp". I might have allowed a power skill roll (a everyhero skilli n my games) to add bonuses to the Accrobatics roll

[ghost-angel]

Re: Hero system complexity

 

In my game I would have said "for every 5" of flight you get a d6 sight flash' date=' this time, if you want to make it a normal tacktic your going to need to spend some xp". I might have allowed a power skill roll (a everyhero skilli n my games) to add bonuses to the Accrobatics roll[/quote']

 

This is how the Power Skill came into being I'd wager . . .

[Lamrok]

Re: Hero system complexity

 

The complication has nothing to do with math. The problem is all the niggling little sub-rules "when a summoned being can act," "Defense and body of a focus," "Momentum of growth," etc, etc. Most powers, limitations and advantages are far from the generic building blocks they are billed as. They are filled with strange little gotchas that often require "outside of the box" thinking to achieve desired results. Fifth edition intruduced way too much of this kind of thing (though my second example is a long standing issue in the rules.) When many people talk about over-complexity, they are thinking of constructs like the shapeshift rules, or the viability of penetrating attacks when used vs foci. I seriously doubt that more than 10% of Hero groups actually know all rules that apply to the characters they are using. I play with a very experienced group, but every time we play, I see constant errors. On my drive home I nearly always realize that I've made at least one major rules goof. This is the problem with complexity. Just poke through the rules FAQ here. It is insane.

 

Hero should be a purely effects driven rules-set, instead of the strange hybrid it actually is. Why are running, flying, gliding and swinging different powers? What is the real point of having killing attacks in the game? What is power defense, really? Why is desol so tightly influenced by various sfx? Lots of this stuff is entirely arbitrary, and only serves to put barriers in front of a player seeking to model a certain special effect.

[GAZZA]

Re: Hero system complexity

 

The same chance anyone has of completely understanding Attack Of Opportunity?

I wouldn't regard the complexity of that as comparable, but YMMV.

 

I would venture to say a newbie to either system has a better chance of understanding by ignoring veteran players of both systems and reading the rules themselves. I know too many gamers who go "but, I don't wanna read th book!" for ANY system.

Depends on the player.

 

From a practical perspective requiring a prospective new player to read a book hundreds of pages long before rolling their first die provides a virtually insurmountable barrier to acquiring new players. From an even more practical perspective, perfectly understanding the contents of the book first time through is, according to many long time veterans of both systems, essentially impossible. From the "practicallest" perspective of all, even if you did that doesn't help much because most games contain optional rules and most groups have house rules - two different groups of gamers aren't necessarily using the same rules even if they're using the same system.

 

Some players are more interested in how the rules work than others. You aren't necessarily a worse player if you rely on the other players or the GM to answer your questions. (Without intending to be misogynistic, I've found few female gamers tend to be rules lawyers - but they certainly aren't any less fun to game with).

 

Not everyone can be bothered reading the manual; some would say that the best way to learn a game is by playing it.

 

Which leaves things up to either the veteran player whose got a few things wrong, or the one person at the table who does read the book - and it's not always the GM. And we look down on "Rules Lawyers" because they read the book and learned the games ins and outs ... baffling.

Well, Rules Lawyers don't have a bad reputation in all groups...

[rjcurrie]

Re: Hero system complexity

 

I've always thought that rules lawyers weren't people who had an encyclopedic knowledge of the rules but rather people who used that knowledge to argue with the GM to have decisions go their way. That is, they use the knowledge of the rules in the same way that a lawyer uses his knowledge of the law to argue for court decisions to go his way.

[GAZZA]

Re: Hero system complexity

 

I've always thought that rules lawyers weren't people who had an encyclopedic knowledge of the rules but rather people who used that knowledge to argue with the GM to have decisions go their way. That is' date=' they use the knowledge of the rules in the same way that a lawyer uses his knowledge of the law to argue for court decisions to go his way.[/quote']

A not uncommon interpretation.

 

My definition is slightly different - if you point out when someone does something against the rules, you're a rules lawyer. If you keep quiet when "bending the rules" favours you and only bring it up when it doesn't, you're a munchkin (since in that case, you're cheating).

 

But everyone defines it themselves; essentially, if you like the idea that players know the rules really well and the GM doesn't mind being challenged from time to time, then you're not likely to use "Rules Lawyer" in a derogatory sense. Many groups go with the "The GM Is God" idea where any challenge is frowned upon (at least in play), so to them "Rules Lawyer" is probably not something desirable.

 

Cheaters are the only players I've ever found it impossible to play with. All other types - Rules Lawyers and Power Gamers included - are manageable.

[Checkmate]

Re: Hero system complexity

 

I think the entire premise of most of your arguments is WAY off. I do not think character creation is what scares people off, nor do I believe it's the most complex part of the system.

 

Someone mentioned that they knew GM's who built worlds with D20, without trying to sound like too much of an ass: So what? With D20 if you screw something up and it's more powerful than you thought, raise the level cap on it. Make it a level 7 spell instead of level 5.Problem solved. In HERO if you didn't realize that lowering the average SPD would have the effect of more recoveries between actions, you seriously skewed play balance. In D20 you know EXACTLY what every class is capable of at every level. There are no surprises there. Sure you may miss something and not realize it's as effective, but as long as everyone is using Official Published stuff, it should pretty much all balance out. The same cannot be said with HERO.

 

I don't want anyone taking this the wrong way, I love HERO. I think it's the best system out there. I'm going on information Steve Long posted some time ago that any RPG that doesn't have D20 is having a rough year. I'm assuming that still holds true, and I think the best way to solve that is what was said earlier: create some all in one, D20 type books that will allow new players to get their feet wet. Help them understand the system, and once they're hooked, they're hooked.

[GAZZA]

Re: Hero system complexity

 

I think the entire premise of most of your arguments is WAY off. I do not think character creation is what scares people off' date=' nor do I believe it's the most complex part of the system.[/quote']

 

I seriously doubt anyone has been scared off of Hero because of the inability to guess the impact of relative SPD issues. You have to understand the system fairly well to even guess that the sorts of things you're referring to might be problematic, and if you know the system that well you weren't scared of it to begin with (it might mean that it isn't your favourite system, perhaps, but you're no longer a newbie if you have the capacity to understand those sorts of problems).

 

And having played d20 for many years (under protest) I honestly am baffled that anyone could even seriously vouch the opinion that the core rules are remotely balanced in any case. Shapechange, anyone? Polymorph is on, what, about its fourth revision (and it's still broken)?

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Hero system complexity

 

My take is that the game looks complicated. If you open the books and it is talking about points for this that and the next thing and then you look at the description of a power there are numbers (including fractions!!) and all kinds of jargon text right in your face.

 

With D20 the jargon is genre specific and designed to sound cool - Great Cleave - Hmm obviously jargon but I reckon I know what it is supposed to do even if I dont know how it works mechanically - it doesn't frighten me - 2D6K (autofire x1/2, autofire only if previous target killed +1/2, O END on autofire x1) and whatever else you want toadd to the build - that looks scary and why are they talking about autofire - it isn't a machine gun?

 

Once someone gets it in their head that there is complexity then you are on a downward slope.

 

And then, as pointed out, you add in the reasoning from effect and things get less than obvious. "What do you mean it doesn't matter if I use armour or force field - of course it matters!" is not an uncommon reaction.

 

I think part of the problem comes from being generic (and so having to apply across multiple genres), part from the fact that the language of the game was written when it was not designed as a generic system and part from the fact that, as Lamrok pointed out, it has never completely boiled itself down to simple building blocks and gotten away from the assumed human template.

 

 

Doc

[ghost-angel]

Re: Hero system complexity

 

Someone mentioned that they knew GM's who built worlds with D20' date=' without trying to sound like too much of an ass: So what? With D20 if you screw something up and it's more powerful than you thought, raise the level cap on it. Make it a level 7 spell instead of level 5.Problem solved. In HERO if you didn't realize that lowering the average SPD would have the effect of more recoveries between actions, you seriously skewed play balance. In D20 you know EXACTLY what every class is capable of at every level. There are no surprises there. Sure you may miss something and not realize it's as effective, but as long as everyone is using Official Published stuff, it should pretty much all balance out. The same cannot be said with HERO.[/quote']

 

It isn't nearly that easy. I EL3 can become EL5 if you don't have the expected and requisite level of magic in your party. But that may not be apparent until too late.

 

In HERO you know EXACTLY what every character is capable of, all the time.

 

In both systems the ability to encounter and defeat any given situation is as much a determination of how the players cooperate as it is anything else.

 

And the published D20 stuff - all over the board. It's not balanced out against itself at all, in any way. Heck, fully half the prestige classes I've seen must have been arbitrarily created with no thought to balance at all.

 

As for your solution - I don't much disagree with it. Though, even D20 products all say "Must have Players Handbook To Play" so it's not different from all Hero products saying "Must having Hero System Toolkit To Play."

 

I can't pick up the Faerun Campaign Guide and start playing. And the PHB has as much "world" built into it as 5ER: no maps in either; PHB has prebuilt powers - 5ER has Power Examples but no genre consistancy; PHB has no sample characters - 5ER has sample characters for several genre; PHB has a pseudo world but mostly it's just examples on how to start building a world - 5ER has the Genre By Genre which is advice specifically on world building.

[Zed-F]

Re: Hero system complexity

 

Damn few' date=' no matter WHAT it is, [b']unless they are a veteran RPG player with more than one or two systems under their belt.[/b]

 

I disagree. From my own personal experience, the RPG's I've bought, and ran before anyone else had the game:

Champions

Marvel Superheroes

DC Heroes

Villains and Vigilantes

Traveler 2000

MechWarrior

Shadowrun

I think the reason you don't see that with Hero System now, is that it's near impossible.

The fact that you were interested in picking up and running all those games suggests you were an experienced gamer before you picked up and ran those systems, no? Most experienced gamers should not have that much trouble picking up Champions and getting a good enough feel for the system to be able to run a game. They might not do a perfect job the first time around, but it's very possible.

[CourtFool]

Re: Hero system complexity

 

In Hero, the curtain has been pulled back. The complexity revealed. In The Game Which Shall Not Be Mentioned, the wizard stays hidden. You must take his word that things are balanced and buy more and more supplements for the actual class/feat/spell you wanted. Sure, you could just make stuff up on your own but you are going off map. Nothing really wrong with that. It's just that, Hero has already shown you how.

[Lamrok]

Re: Hero system complexity

 

In Hero' date=' the curtain has been pulled back. The complexity revealed. In The Game Which Shall Not Be Mentioned, the wizard stays hidden. You must take his word that things are balanced and buy more and more supplements for the actual class/feat/spell you wanted. Sure, you could just make stuff up on your own but you are going off map. Nothing really wrong with that. It's just that, Hero has already shown you how.[/quote']

 

There's still plenty more curtain to remove on Hero. For example, what mathematically consistent construct supports the logic behind costing for ECs, MPs, and VPPs? How do you reconcile the cost of strength to the cost of intelligence? Why have killing attacks at all? When you pull back the curtain on a power, you still have a collection of effects with a point value set by dead reckoning. Energy Blast may seem to be the simplest and most straightforward of powers - but it comes with the ability to spread (increase OCV or cover multiple hexes) and to bounce. To make it simple ranged damage, you have to put a limitation on it.

 

Hero Sixth edition could easily become the game that the more Hero-positive folks in this thread are describing. But you'd have to scale back things to a more generic, more basic level. I'd love to see that.

[BigJackBrass]

Re: Hero system complexity

 

To my mind HERO isn't horribly complex so much as it is daunting. That's a big rulebook, without any comforting colour pictures or a pre-defined campaign setting. You're jumping in at the deep end.

 

Of course, when you do jump in it quickly becomes obvious that the maths isn't as bad as its reputation (adding a couple of simple fractions or dividing an integer by five hardly matches the wild cries of "insanely complex math" I read so often on various sites) and the book probably has more examples and explanations than almost any other core book on the market. And that's even without Sidekick. For a player it's even easier, of course, particularly after characters have been created since the fundamental mechanisms for using skills etc are a doddle.

 

The system is moderately complex, of course, there's really no denying that. Much of it may be optional and there are plenty of alternatives given for different elements, but HERO generally involves keeping track of a few things and using a whole toolbox of rules possibilities. Where it wins for me is here: In HERO the slight added complexity of things like different forms of damage makes a real difference to play and adds real depth, whereas in so many games the rules are often quite complex but offer little over some very simple systems.

[gojira]

Re: Hero system complexity

 

To my mind HERO isn't horribly complex so much as it is daunting. That's a big rulebook' date=' without any comforting colour pictures or a pre-defined campaign setting. You're jumping in at the deep end.[/quote']

 

QFT.

 

The only issue here I truly understand is the color pictures. It just costs to much, and risking insolvency isn't worth it for any company. The other bits are just writing.

 

What I'd like to see is a mash-up of Champions, Champions Universe, Millennium City and Sidekick. Label it "CHAMPIONS The *Super* Role-Playing Game -- Everything you need in one book." Black and white would be fine. This could be supported with 2-4 PDF adventures and see where it goes. Maybe one for fantasy too, since that seems to be popular.

[CourtFool]

Re: Hero system complexity

 

There's still plenty more curtain to remove on Hero.

 

While I agree Hero could be more generic, I think you are arguing another thread.

[Lamrok]

Re: Hero system complexity

 

While I agree Hero could be more generic' date=' I think you are arguing another thread.[/quote']

 

Many, many threads over the years, actually.

[CourtFool]

Nanny, nanny, boo boo!

 

Oh! In that case...why are you such a Kansasian nazi incapable of intellectual discourse? Your parents were not married when you were born, were they?

[Lamrok]

Re: Nanny, nanny, boo boo!

 

Oh! In that case...why are you such a Kansasian nazi incapable of intellectual discourse? Your parents were not married when you were born' date=' were they? [/quote']

 

I'll have you know that I have never actually lived in Kansas.

[JmOz]

Re: Hero system complexity

 

QFT.

 

The only issue here I truly understand is the color pictures. It just costs to much, and risking insolvency isn't worth it for any company. The other bits are just writing.

 

What I'd like to see is a mash-up of Champions, Champions Universe, Millennium City and Sidekick. Label it "CHAMPIONS The *Super* Role-Playing Game -- Everything you need in one book." Black and white would be fine. This could be supported with 2-4 PDF adventures and see where it goes. Maybe one for fantasy too, since that seems to be popular.

 

Similart to an idea I have had called the sidekick series

 

Basicaly each book would have, all considerably less than a dedicated book (s less than a genre on genre etc...)

 

Each would contain (For Champions Sidekick)

*Intro to genre (Super Heroes),

*Intro to setting (Champions Universe), 1/4 of the book between these 2 catagories

* New Location (Bay City), this would be about 1/2 the book

* PC Section (Bay City Guardians), could be used as either NPC or player characters

* Antagonists (Various new villains, mostly in the Bay City Area), these last 2 sections would be the final 1/4

 

All of the rules would be set as Sidekick being the default, any rules needed from the bigger book would be located in sidebars

 

Note you would still need to buy Sidekick, which of course in the online store they would be bundled together