"Behind" in combat

[GAZZA]

Situation: two normal guys deciding to have a slugfest. Each of them stands in an adjacent hex.

 

There are no penalties for moving around your opponent in Hero, so with their normal Running 6", they can half move 3" to the hex behind their opponent and punch them at 1/2 DCV. Then their opponent can do the same to them. Provided they don't run out of room, nobody need ever try and hit someone at full DCV.

 

This looks absolutely legal according to 5ER, and it also seems absolutely ridiculous. Also, when it talks about Surprise Maneuvers (5ER pp 380-381) it mentions that if you have Defence Maneuver you are never surprised, yet Defence Maneuver itself does not mention this - instead, it says that no attacker is considered to be attacking from behind.

 

I'm wondering if there's some sort of confusion here. It certainly looks more logical to disregard the DCV modifier for attacking from behind and "fold it in" to surprise, as well as making it much less necessary to track facing (you still need to do so for the sake of movement, though).

 

Or perhaps I've misinterpreted something?

[Diamond Spear]

Re: "Behind" in combat

 

Every GM I know would consider moving to change facing (i.e. turning around) would be a 0 phase action that you could perform at any time.

[SableWyvern]

Re: "Behind" in combat

 

Rolemaster had a similar loophole in the rules, and I had one player in particular who liked to exercise his right to flank opponents.

 

My solution then was to required opposed Moving Manoeuvre checks (DEX checks would probably be the equivalent in HERO). In a one-one-one fight, somebody trying to flank got big penalties, while the opposite was true if the opponent was outnumbered.

 

Diamond Spear's solution is much simpler, while mine adds some tactical options at the cost of more complexity.

[Legendsmiths]

Re: "Behind" in combat

 

The Combat Handbook p27 states that Hero does not have facing. The DCV table is somewhat confusing as p50 clearly defines Surprised as:

This Combat Modifier applies when a character

is attacked from behind, above, by an invisible

attacker, from ambush, or any other situation where

he’s surprised by the attack.

So, an attack from behind is a "Surprise Attack". The DCV table is just being complete by spelling it out, but notice the modifiers are the same. That same block goes on to say that if the character has reason to expect an attack, the surprise modifier does not apply. So, a runaround attack would not work.

 

If someone were fast enough, I might agree to a Surprise Move bonus. Typically this is done via Acrobatics... I usually do Acrobatics vs. PER, with success = +1 OCV, and every 2 points thereafter +1. I came up with that ruling just to put some mechanics (which can be fun) to GM fiat (as Surprise Move maneuver describes).

 

I usually allow Rear Attacks if they are Surprise Attacks. That usually happens if a combatant is clearly focused in one direction and doesn't expect the sneak attacker to attack, and the sneak attacker succeeds at a Stealth vs. PER contest.

 

Multiple Attacker bonus usually comes in to play for surrounding someone, although if the target chose to focus defense on one attacker, one of the other multiple attackers might get a rear attack on him.

 

Does that help?

[Diamond Spear]

Re: "Behind" in combat

 

The Combat Handbook p27 states that Hero does not have facing. The DCV table is somewhat confusing as p50 clearly defines Surprised as:

 

This Combat Modifier applies when a character

is attacked from behind, above, by an invisible

attacker, from ambush, or any other situation where

he’s surprised by the attack.

 

I can't consider a character suprised when he can watch his opponent moving around behind him.

[Legendsmiths]

Re: "Behind" in combat

 

That was my point. I hit the button too soon.

[Diamond Spear]

Re: "Behind" in combat

 

That was my point. I hit the button too soon.

 

Well what'd you do that for? Now that you've edited your post mine doesn't look right. Now what will people think of me?

[Legendsmiths]

Re: "Behind" in combat

 

That you are a crazy, incoherent, poster . Since that doesn't reflect poorly on me, I'm not sure there's any need for concern... on my part.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: "Behind" in combat

 

I usually allow Rear Attacks if they are Surprise Attacks. That usually happens if a combatant is clearly focused in one direction and doesn't expect the sneak attacker to attack, and the sneak attacker succeeds at a Stealth vs. PER contest.

 

Ah the joys of invisibile power effects teleportation.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: "Behind" in combat

 

The pre-5ER FAQ goes into considerable detail on this issue:

 

 

Does “Surprised” differ from “being attacked from behind,” and what are the implications for Defense Maneuver and the like?

 

Generally speaking, there’s no difference between “Surprised” and “from behind.” The very first sentence describing the Surprised Combat Modifier lists “from behind” as one possible way to be Surprised. The DCV Modifiers Table on 5E 245 lists the condition separately for the simple reason that the table would be largely useless if it didn’t list common conditions modifying DCV — that’s the whole reason it’s there. The “from behind” penalties mirror those for Surprised because they’re the same thing. Next time I’ll put “(Surprised)” in after the entry.

 

If there’s any contradiction here, it lies not in the table but in the text of Surprised itself, which (a) lists separate modifiers for “in combat” and “out of combat,” but ( states that the Modifier doesn’t apply if the character is “expecting [an] attack[.]” Obviously anyone who’s in combat expects to be attacked, but yet Surprised modifiers exist for “in combat” situations (and Defense Maneuver deals with “from behind” situations as well).

 

The solution is to apply the concept of “expecting an attack” with a little common and dramatic sense. Ordinarily a character in combat expects to be attacked. Another attacker leaping out from ambush in addition to whoever is already attacking him probably isn’t much of a surprise. Neither is a character with Stretching reaching around to smack him “from behind.” In those situations, there’s probably no good reason to apply a “Surprised in combat” modifier.

 

On the other hand, even if someone’s in combat, a new attacker creeping up on him from behind, particularly if Invisible or using Stealth or the like, probably would inflict the “Surprised in combat” modifier on the character, at least for his first attack. It doesn’t make much sense that Invisibility, or even Stealth, would become completely useless in that situation. If the character has good reason to suspect an attack from behind or from an Invisible foe, perhaps the modifier shouldn’t apply — and in any event there are already penalties for being unable to sense an Invisible opponent.

 

The benefit to Defense Maneuver I is that reasonableness of belief becomes irrelevant. The character’s fighting style or perceptions keep him from being Surprised from behind in combat regardless.

[Vondy]

Re: "Behind" in combat

 

If you know its coming its not much of a surprise.

 

Also: facing. Facing changes also cost movement.

[Legendsmiths]

Re: "Behind" in combat

 

Facing changes do not cost movement. There is a turn mode for some forms of movement, but running has no turn mode. If you have 6" of movement you can go in any direction.

[GAZZA]

Re: "Behind" in combat

 

Thanks guys! I did check the 5ER FAQ but not the FRED FAQ - that'll teach me.

[Sidume]

Re: "Behind" in combat

 

Another option is to allow the person who is being hit from "behind" not lose the DCV, but instead execute a martial throw, adding the 3" velocity.

[Metaphysician]

Re: "Behind" in combat

 

I figure that under most circumstances, the only way to get an unsurprised backshot is if you've got multiple attackers. Even then, your probably better off representing the hazard with the multiple attacker penalties. . . and ignoring it as applicable when Defense Maneuver is available.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: "Behind" in combat

 

I think this is at least partially covered by the "ignoring opponents" rule. Your opponent is not just going to stand there and let you move past him. I don't remember precisely where this is in the book. I hope there's an index entry for "Ignoring Opponents."

 

(For you D20 dabblers, it's HERO's equivalent of "attacks of opportunity". Sort of.)

[ghost-angel]

Re: "Behind" in combat

 

If you know its coming its not much of a surprise.

 

Also: facing. Facing changes also cost movement.

 

Facing changes do not cost movement. There is a turn mode for some forms of movement' date=' but running has no turn mode. If you have 6" of movement you can go in any direction.[/quote']

 

Hero does not actually have Rules for facing.

 

Unlike D20 you are not "facing" in any direction, you don't even technically have to face the direction of movement, if you are moving.

 

Also - given that the area of a 2" Hex is a much large space than an average human occupies the whole concept sounds ludicrous to begin with.