Heroes and Nukes!

[Greywind]

Re: Heroes and Nukes!

 

Because a lot of people survived Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

A lot of people didn't, as well...

[Grimble]

Re: Heroes and Nukes!

 

 

1. There is ABSOLUTELY NO WAY to detonate a 300 megaton nuclear (or is it 'nuk-ya-ler'?) weapon covertly. Satellite recon and seismograph stations make that sort of explosion impossible to miss. As soon as it goes off, the rest of the world is going to know about it

 

By covertly, I meant he doesn't want it known HE did it. Of course the blast itself will be noticed. Hence the consequences.

 

Grimble

[Trebuchet]

Re: Heroes and Nukes!

 

Area wise I agree' date=' but I'd use increased area or megascale for that eather than pumping the dice; there are a fair number of high end but still playable Supers who should be able to survive at ground zero (any Kryptonian type for a start), even if severely injured; I'd rather not have to build all of them with double hardened resistant PD and ED in the 100s. It may be "realistic", but it's not really genre. Ymmv and all that.[/quote']Sure, genre is relevant - but superhero comics are by definition unrealistic. I simply don't have any problem assuming truly Superman-class Silver Age supers have defenses in the 100+ PD/ED range (Superman's early incarnation as a Hugo Danner knockoff notwithstanding; clearly that version couldn't have remotely survived a nuke at Ground Zero). The official Hero numbers for nukes are still totally unrealistic; they're quite obviously designed for playability rather than realism. They provide the heroes - if they're really tough, quick, or incredibly lucky - with some chance of surviving a nuke.

 

The simple fact is some things simply don't scale well without creative writing or gamemastering. Nukes and the rPD value of Kal-El's epidermis are two of them.

[OddHat]

Re: Heroes and Nukes!

 

Sure' date=' genre is relevant - but superhero comics are by definition unrealistic. I simply don't have any problem assuming truly Superman-class Silver Age supers have defenses in the 100+ PD/ED range[/quote']

 

Actually, I don't either, though that's not exactly how I handle them in my home campaign.

(Superman's early incarnation as a Hugo Danner knockoff notwithstanding; clearly that version couldn't have remotely survived a nuke at Ground Zero).

 

Yup. The 1938 Superman was at risk from a sufficiently hot fire, let alone a Nuke.

 

The official Hero numbers for nukes are still totally unrealistic; they're quite obviously designed for playability rather than realism. They provide the heroes - if they're really tough, quick, or incredibly lucky - with some chance of surviving a nuke.

 

The simple fact is some things simply don't scale well without creative writing or gamemastering. Nukes and the rPD value of Kal-El's epidermis are two of them.

 

Pretty much agreed. Just pointing out that I'd keep the dice of a nuke down for genre reasons in a campaign anywhere close to CU standards on attacks and defenses.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Heroes and Nukes!

 

Sure, genre is relevant - but superhero comics are by definition unrealistic. I simply don't have any problem assuming truly Superman-class Silver Age supers have defenses in the 100+ PD/ED range (Superman's early incarnation as a Hugo Danner knockoff notwithstanding; clearly that version couldn't have remotely survived a nuke at Ground Zero). The official Hero numbers for nukes are still totally unrealistic; they're quite obviously designed for playability rather than realism. They provide the heroes - if they're really tough, quick, or incredibly lucky - with some chance of surviving a nuke.

 

The simple fact is some things simply don't scale well without creative writing or gamemastering. Nukes and the rPD value of Kal-El's epidermis are two of them.

 

20d6 KA will vaporize an MBT instantly, and turn a CVN into a charred hunk of metal. It will also kill Mechanon instantly(pretty much vaporizing any remains in the process). Is there any object in the environment that would actually require higher damage in order to thoroughly wreck it? I can't think of anything offhand.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Heroes and Nukes!

 

Thing is, there is lots of stuff that won't get destroyed by a near miss from a small nuke, or a less near miss from a big one.

 

A 12d6 RKA is enough to reduce even the toughest modern tank into a puddle. A 15d6 RKA can still does this at six explosion intervals distance. Thats good enough for me.

[Grimble]

Re: Heroes and Nukes!

 

Seconded, what has the villain done to merit this level of retaliation? How did the Hero get access to this super bomb? Do any government agencies know they have access to it?

 

Set the stage for us...

 

The Villain is a Lex Luthor rip-off who has been a most wanted criminal Mastermind since the 40's. Not only has he recently stolen Duplication pad technology. He just set off an EMP enhanced nuke of his own above Stronghold, as the beginning of a massive break-out.

 

The PC plans to get the nuke from an alternate version of himself, who brought it over from his world. The alternate Earth was being overrun by a huge alien armada. They used nukes to take out their own super-base. They had 1 left and brought it with to the PCs Earth, just in case. Near the beginning of next session, the PC will be meeting to discuss the transfer of the nuke.

 

Oh, BTW. The PC currently believes the nuke is 300KT. It is actually enhanced with super-materials and supered-up catalysts to make it a 300megaton bomb!

[Trebuchet]

Re: Heroes and Nukes!

 

20d6 KA will vaporize an MBT instantly' date=' and turn a CVN into a charred hunk of metal.[/quote']Vaporize? Hardly. Totally trash, absolutely.

It will also kill Mechanon instantly(pretty much vaporizing any remains in the process). Is there any object in the environment that would actually require higher damage in order to thoroughly wreck it? I can't think of anything offhand.

In the real world? Not offhand. In a superworld with advanced tech and metahumans? Lots of things.

 

I don't consider an MBT to be the epitome of toughness, just the epitome of real world vehicle toughness. Many supers would be significantly tougher. Most wouldn't even come close.

[OddHat]

Re: Heroes and Nukes!

 

The Villain is a Lex Luthor rip-off who has been a most wanted criminal Mastermind since the 40's. Not only has he recently stolen Duplication pad technology. He just set off an EMP enhanced nuke of his own above Stronghold, as the beginning of a massive break-out.

 

The PC plans to get the nuke from an alternate version of himself, who brought it over from his world. The alternate Earth was being overrun by a huge alien armada. They used nukes to take out their own super-base. They had 1 left and brought it with to the PCs Earth, just in case. Near the beginning of next session, the PC will be meeting to discuss the transfer of the nuke.

 

Oh, BTW. The PC currently believes the nuke is 300KT. It is actually enhanced with super-materials and supered-up catalysts to make it a 300megaton bomb!

 

Any cleaning people on Lex Luthor's island? Cooks? Natives? IT guys guilty of nothing worse than cashing a check from a bad man? If so, is your PC OK with murdering all of those people?

 

Or you can go the "it's a big empty island base run by robots" in which case, whatever.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Heroes and Nukes!

 

Vaporize? Hardly. Totally trash, absolutely.In the real world? Not offhand. In a superworld with advanced tech and metahumans? Lots of things.

 

I don't consider an MBT to be the epitome of toughness, just the epitome of real world vehicle toughness. Many supers would be significantly tougher. Most wouldn't even come close.

 

I tend to "confetti rule" attacks which do DEF+ 2x Body in one strike--and, depending on the special effect, in this case immense heat, vaporized, blown to bits and scattered to the four winds, or just mangled beyond recognition.

 

The amount of heat energy to heat 70,000kg of steel(let's call it that for the purpose of discussion) to its vaporization point is immense, and far in excess of the 10-20 megajoules of kinetic energy necessary to penetrate tank armor, by orders of magnitude. A super could have 35 rDEF and 20 body and technically be significantly tougher than an MBT. But even an exceptionally tough superhuman like that would be near death after 20d6 KA(losing 1 body per minute, it'd take about 5 minutes for them to die, probably less under the circumstances). Even 50 rDEF and 25 Body characters would be at mortal risk(and that's probably a 700+ point super at that point).

 

YMMV, of course, but I don't really see a need to upgrade the lethality of nukes.

[Comic]

Re: Heroes and Nukes!

 

For some things, stats just aren't necessary.

 

We don't stat our dragons. If we gave them stats, someone would find a way to defeat one, and that's just not going to happen.

 

I don't see much point in giving stats to a 300 MT weapon. Just carve a quarter mile off the top of your island in a 4 mile radius, shift the mass of what used to be there in a disk out to 20 miles, let the tsunami take its course if you're going to have one, and be done with it.

 

If your villain's joined the nuclear club, many wouldn't shed a tear to see this outcome, presuming he does indeed succumb to it. Most would be busy trying to figure out what it means to them, and how to keep from being a target. Welcome to a M.A.D. world.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Heroes and Nukes!

 

Be careful, though: for the supers genre, there aren't many things that *are* supposed to be utterly unbeatable. . . and typically, those things are Cosmic Monsters From Outer Space, not mere advanced human weaponry.

[Teflon Billy]

Re: Heroes and Nukes!

 

Any cleaning people on Lex Luthor's island? Cooks? Natives? IT guys guilty of nothing worse than cashing a check from a bad man? If so, is your PC OK with murdering all of those people?

 

Or you can go the "it's a big empty island base run by robots" in which case, whatever.

I refer to the Clerks movie Death Star Contractors discussion as to why these people dying as collateral damage to not being morally wrong.

 

TB

[OzMike]

Re: Heroes and Nukes!

 

Grimble, I guess the main question is what do YOU want to happen in your game? And what do you want the consequences of those actions to be?

 

If you want to let the PC nuke the villain with this thing, it's your call.

 

Personally, I wouldn't bother with statting it up and rolling the dice unless there are PCs in the vicinity who could get affected by it. Handwaving/storytelling would be my approach.

 

I would also strongly discourage the PC from doing it - it just doesn't seem heroic. Also shouldn't it be saved for for when it is really needed? Like when Godzilla is making a B-Line for a major population centre? Or when Cthulu and his mates come over for a cup of tea? Or when Galactus pops down for some lunch? To use it on a mere human-type seems, well, wasteful.

 

Finally if the PC is insistent I'd allow it to happen. Because, if you remember, this is atom-ripping technology from another universe. So the PC would sneakily set it off, some relatively major property damage might occur, probably very few casualties (a Lex Luther-type would protect his assets - yes, even his gardeners) due to a massive anti-nuclear weapon energy field in place over the island (any master villain who is willing to use nukes to disable Stronghold is HIGHLY likely to have a suitable defense against a similar type of attack against himself) and then I would have the biggest inter-universal rift the world have ever seen appear... was it 1 mile(?) above the island and the nasty aliens from the other place start to pour through and make a beachhead into ours.

 

And then the PCs, and in particular the PC who started this mess, would probably need to go and ask nasty-Mr-Lex-Luthor-type-who-they-just-tried-to-kill for help in fighting the invasion and shutting the rift.

 

Oops indeed.

[Grimble]

Re: Heroes and Nukes!

 

I love the whole atom-ripping tech from an alternate universe angle! Thanks!

[HatchlingDragon]

Re: Heroes and Nukes!

 

Oh dear, (mostly) we tried to convince him and/or his character that this was a 'bad thing', and it now it appears that the result is not only does he get to set off the biggest explosion ever recorded by mankind, it touches-off an inter-dimentional war.

 

I'm confused though, about if I should feel saddened that things went total the opposite way we were trying to point it, or proud that yet another RBGM is born.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Heroes and Nukes!

 

20d6 KA will vaporize an MBT instantly' date=' and turn a CVN into a charred hunk of metal. It will also kill Mechanon instantly(pretty much vaporizing any remains in the process). Is there any object in the environment that would actually require higher damage in order to thoroughly wreck it? I can't think of anything offhand.[/quote']I don't have a problem with a nuke vaporizing a tank, even an Abrams. Even a relatively puny Hiroshima-yield atomic bomb will do that. It take 20d6 EX RKA to do it, and that's my problem - a 1 megaton hydrogen bomb is 50 times more powerful than the Hiroshima bomb yet the megaton yield nuke has been depicted in Hero as 20d6K. Sorry, but that's simply too small a number.

 

20d6K is appropriate for small tactical nukes such as the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombs simply because blasts of that yield could destroy tanks. It is totally inadequate to represent nukes dozens of times more powerful. If suitcase nukes are down in the 10 - 12d6K range, then megaton blasts need to be correspondingly larger.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Heroes and Nukes!

 

The problem is, a suitcase nuke *is* in the low kiloton range, typically. That, plus the comparison to the tank gun's firepower, pegs 12d6 RKA as one kiloton, roughly.

 

And if thats the case, you can't even approach 1 megaton = 20d6 RKA without throwing the +1 DC = x2 effect principle out the window.

 

I do wonder, though, where are you getting the "needs 20d6 RKA to vaporize an Abrams" idea from? Even assuming "vaporize" = "Straight to Negative Body", you'd only need 20 + 19 + 19, or 58 Body damage, or about 17d6 RKA. And IIRC, vehicles only use the negative Body concept in the loosest sense, anyway.

 

IOW, given an Abrams is pretty much the toughest single hex target that you'd ever expect to get hit by a nuke in a conventional setting, the fact that it might "only" get sent straight to 0 Body and beyond by one hit is good enough, given that still means the vehicle is destroyed and the crew is dead.

[Grimble]

Re: Heroes and Nukes!

 

Maybe I could use Megascale killing damage(1d6 RKA=1million d6 RKA). Then we can have Mega-Armor. Mega-Strength can do Megascale HA damage...

 

 

(For those of you who are too serious minded, I'm joking...mega-joking)

[OddHat]

Re: Heroes and Nukes!

 

I refer to the Clerks movie Death Star Contractors discussion as to why these people dying as collateral damage to not being morally wrong.

 

Never saw it, but unless the Superheroes involved are rebel soldiers acting against a genocidal dictatorship, they can tell it to the judge and jury afterwards.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Heroes and Nukes!

 

The problem is, a suitcase nuke *is* in the low kiloton range, typically. That, plus the comparison to the tank gun's firepower, pegs 12d6 RKA as one kiloton, roughly.

 

And if thats the case, you can't even approach 1 megaton = 20d6 RKA without throwing the +1 DC = x2 effect principle out the window.

 

I do wonder, though, where are you getting the "needs 20d6 RKA to vaporize an Abrams" idea from? Even assuming "vaporize" = "Straight to Negative Body", you'd only need 20 + 19 + 19, or 58 Body damage, or about 17d6 RKA. And IIRC, vehicles only use the negative Body concept in the loosest sense, anyway.

 

IOW, given an Abrams is pretty much the toughest single hex target that you'd ever expect to get hit by a nuke in a conventional setting, the fact that it might "only" get sent straight to 0 Body and beyond by one hit is good enough, given that still means the vehicle is destroyed and the crew is dead.

You're missing my point entirely. I'm trying to come up with some rational scale for a Hero nuclear weapon by evaluating real world damage to a tank by a nuke. Certainly the tank will be trashed with a 20d6K blast, but the basis for the comparison is real world nuclear tests against tanks. And in real world tests, tanks at ground zero were vaporized (Not damaged, banged up, or reduced to junk - vaporized) by nukes far smaller than one megaton. If it takes a 20d6K nuke to vaporize a tank in Hero, then 1 megaton should be substantially larger than 20d6K.

 

I do not, BTW, subscribe to the "+1DC is twice as much damage" school of thought. It is certainly more damage, but there is no evidence whatsoever it is twice as much. IRL 2 sticks of dynamite does not do exactly twice as much damage as one stick like it does in Hero. How much more damage is 5d6 than 4d6? 1d6 more, of course.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Heroes and Nukes!

 

The 'dynamite stick' rule is one of the least sensical in Hero. Hardly the material to use for judging, well, anything.

 

( unless setting off a box of dynamite should KO Dr Destroyer. . . )

[Inu]

Re: Heroes and Nukes!

 

The problem is, a suitcase nuke *is* in the low kiloton range, typically. That, plus the comparison to the tank gun's firepower, pegs 12d6 RKA as one kiloton, roughly.

 

And if thats the case, you can't even approach 1 megaton = 20d6 RKA without throwing the +1 DC = x2 effect principle out the window.

 

I do wonder, though, where are you getting the "needs 20d6 RKA to vaporize an Abrams" idea from? Even assuming "vaporize" = "Straight to Negative Body", you'd only need 20 + 19 + 19, or 58 Body damage, or about 17d6 RKA. And IIRC, vehicles only use the negative Body concept in the loosest sense, anyway.

 

IOW, given an Abrams is pretty much the toughest single hex target that you'd ever expect to get hit by a nuke in a conventional setting, the fact that it might "only" get sent straight to 0 Body and beyond by one hit is good enough, given that still means the vehicle is destroyed and the crew is dead.

However, in the centre of a nuclear blast, it should be VAPORISED. Not 'reduced to a puddle', not 'destroyed', but 'there is no tank.' The fact that the +1/x2 theory gets you to that level means that the +1/x2 theory is wrong to begin with. Which it always has been, quite frankly. I've never really bought it. It's a nice idea in theory, and I know it has its place in the game, but with it working against linear defences... it just falls down in the end when you actually analyse the effects. It's not infinitely extensible, and it becomes a place where gamist and simulationist really clash. I'm not sure really where I want my games to be. At one level, a nuke-proof hero who can still be threatened by a tank gun is genre. On another level, it means nukes lose a lot of their devastating power.

 

Note that in Hiroshima/nagasaki, as I noted above, airbursts were used to maximise the area of damage. This means that nothing in the place took a point-blank hit from the nuke. Nothing was inside the vaporisation area.

[Comic]

Re: Heroes and Nukes!

 

Keeping in mind the vaporization area of a 300 MT is pretty small compared to the overall impact zone. Like a tenth of a mile before you'd expect tungsten steel to only liquify.

 

And why are we using KA's, not normal damage, for nukes? It's not like they're more destructive to nonresistant targets than to resistant targets. Unless it's too troublesome to add up 60+d6 normal dice?

 

A real simplist could just take the blast radius (-2d6 for knockback) as about the explosion radius (30 km or so and work back from the explosion how many DC to apply - 30 km = 30,000m = 15,000"=15,000d6 Normal explosion vs ED.

Which works well enough for the first tenth of a mile and well enough for the last tenth of a mile, and even though it is overkill for the zone between those two shells, it's not like there's a lot left standing in that zone it would make much of a difference for.

 

If you want to get a smoother explosion, 15 is a lot like 16, and 16 is a lot like 4 doublings, so you could just use 1000d6 normal explosion with 4x increased AoE.

 

That gives you a pretty fair gradient, and at the blast's outer edge you have about 160 meters between 0d6 damage and 20d6 damage.

 

If you really need a smooth, smooth gradient and are a simulationist, 250d6 Normal explosion with 16x increased AoE is extremely convincing, and satisfies pretty fair models of how much destruction and how it falls off over the area.

[OddHat]

Re: Heroes and Nukes!

 

Noting as always that if we do go for the 1000s of d6 for nukes, we end up with even more point balance problems when it comes to simulating a genre where Supergirl and Mary Marvel (characters whose defenses would need to be in the 1000s) may be on the same team as Robin and Speedy.

 

Not that there aren't ways to overcome that, but still worth considering.