Heroes and Nukes!

[Grimble]

I have a question for you smart folks. What would happen if a 300 megaton nuke exploded over an island in the South Pacific? It is thought to be uninhabited, but the PC's know their arch-nemesis has his current base there.

 

First, I want to know what sort of damage would be done. Both in game and in "real" damage description. Next, I like your opinions about what the reaction would be around the world. Politically, the super population, any countermeasures.

 

One of the "heroes" in my group has access to a weapon like this and has a plan to secretly explode it over the island as cohertly as he can.

 

 

Grimble

[Trebuchet]

Re: Heroes and Nukes!

 

Effects of nuclear weapons: http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/nuclear/effectstable1.html

 

300 MT is larger than any real bomb which has ever been detonated even by the Soviet Union or the US. It's about 20,000 times bigger than the bombs dropped on Japan in WW2.

 

As you observed, using such a weapon isn't very heroic. I would expect massive repercussions on the political and societal aspects. At the very least it would be roundly condemned.

 

If a villain requires such extreme measures to stop, then it would be logical for him to possess the means to counter the attack or even to use it for his own ends. "Thanks for delivering this toy, you fools! I'll now turn it against Manhattan!"

[Comic]

Re: Heroes and Nukes!

 

Sorry.

 

All out of smart here.

 

Does your, er, 'hero' know what he's doing, or is he merely an amateur?

 

300 Megatons is about six times bigger than the biggest weapon ever detonated, so it's not like it'll make a small impact, or go unnoticed.

 

Likely, news will get out of a weapon of this power going off, and once the experts explain that it's about an order of magnitude bigger than any previously tested bomb, and not associated with any nation's military, no doubt there'll be worldwide yakking.

 

If another Bush is in office, he'll no doubt blame Iran, or North Korea, get the CIA to falsify evidence, and bribe or blackmail anyone who has spare child-soldiers to form an alliance and go get 'em.

 

As for damage, yeah.. hard to argue 300 megatons won't just plain outright kill or mess up whatever is within a mile, regardless of superpowered defenses, and likely a much bigger radius -- hard to say unless you know how high up it detonates.

 

It'd do less damage than Mt. St. Helens eruption did, in any case.

 

And it would be illegal under international law, regardless of intention.

[Grimble]

Re: Heroes and Nukes!

 

The tentative plan right now is to detonate 1 mile above the island.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Heroes and Nukes!

 

Depends on the villain. If this were, say, Doctor Destroyer's island, than for the most part, no one would care, unless the nuking was by someone whose not internationally trusted. For anyone less world-threatening, though, this is massive overkill and unlikely to be looked well upon.

 

Also depends where they got the nuke.

 

Physical consequences? Well, realistically speaking this big a nuke would be rather dirty, but thats a matter of degree. You wouldn't have anything like detectable effect on global cancer rate. The island and anything for about a hundred miles around is gonna be gone, though.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Heroes and Nukes!

 

The tentative plan right now is to detonate 1 mile above the island.

If I understand blast effects correctly, even a 300 MT nuke detonated 1 mile above the ground might not destroy sturdy structures deep underground (such as a typical supervillain base might have). It'll scour the surface clean, but something 300 feet down through solid rock? Probably not.

 

If this particular repeat villain enrages the heroes this much, maybe it's time to put him out to pasture?

[The Weapon]

Re: Heroes and Nukes!

 

Sorry.

 

All out of smart here.

 

Does your, er, 'hero' know what he's doing, or is he merely an amateur?

 

300 Megatons is about six times bigger than the biggest weapon ever detonated, so it's not like it'll make a small impact, or go unnoticed.

 

The Soviets had a 100 MT design but they decided that exploding it would cause far too much fallout. They inserted lead dampners to reduce it to 50 meg. Even then it seems a not particularly practical weapon.

[HatchlingDragon]

Re: Heroes and Nukes!

 

Bear with me, I've rewritten this about a dozen times, and I still don't like how it's coming across. I know how I feel, it's translating it into text so that you'd understand where I'm coming from that's eluding me.

 

Governments are, to put it simply, in buisness for themselfs. They're, for the most part, interested in maintaining the status-quo, most especialy thier own power. Nuclear armed governemnts are (for the most part) a 'group effort' of some sort: USA's 3 branches of governement (involving hundreds of people) to even a Sovereign nation tends to have a 'court' of near-peers. This is a safety net, it's what helps make groups more predictable than individuals, and predictable = safer.

 

Now, we have these nations that have atomic weapons so that others (with 'the bomb' too) will not attack them for fear of retaliation. They know they're safe because a group's dynamics would mean that even if someone (or a small group) wanted to use the weapons, the others of thier group would stop them because it'd be in thier own best interest.

 

Now we come to the thought of an individual posessing such a weapon, outside the controls of any government. An individual can have a bad day, can become so emotional that reason takes a holiday, simply put an individual is unpredictable compared to a group (ie: governemnt). Heck, if nothing else one person is far more vulnerable, be it mind-control (. o O You will destroy Manhatten!) or simply having friends/family held hostage, ect. This lowers thier predictability even further. This is one of the biggest reasons to fear a 'radical group' (ie: terrorists, ect) getting thier hands on such a weapon, they're considered to be far more likely to use the weapons without fear of the repercussions.

 

These thoughts would occur to at least a few members of some government(s). These people would share thier thoughts (fears) because that would align thier like-minded government types with them in finding some way to 'correct' the situation and maintain the status-quo.

 

Net result: If the goverments of the world would have any reason to suspect the Hero of this sort of technology/power then they're going to have that character monitored somehow. It could be anything from having an NPC spy to simply keeping track of materials purchased/obtained by him/her. If they don't have any reason to suspect this sort of thing, then you can have LOTS of fun with roleplaying the (pardon my pun) fallout from such a heinous deed.

 

If they weren't world-famous before they detonate the device, they're going to be for certain afterwards. Unless, of course, you decide one or more governments have some means of conducting a truely massive cover-up operation. It'd have to be something even 'bigger' than an Orbital Neuraliser (Flashy Thingy from MiB 2, a-la Statue of Liberty's 'torch'), as they'd have to cover up some very impressive 'scarring' to the area. Maps rewritten, seismographic evidence (and anyone on the planet that's got that sort of equipment would notice), possible fall-out and massive fish-kills (shockwave). And of course everything else I'm forgetting.

[Spidey88]

Re: Heroes and Nukes!

 

I have a question for you smart folks. What would happen if a 300 megaton nuke exploded over an island in the South Pacific? It is thought to be uninhabited, but the PC's know their arch-nemesis has his current base there.

 

 

 

 

My guess would be:

 

 

KABOOOOOOM!

 

 

Sorry. Couldn't resist.

 

 

[Loxly]

Re: Heroes and Nukes!

 

I'm trying to remember which HERO System book has a listing for a Nuke ... but I got nothin'.

 

I know I've seen it ... just don't know where.

[Spidey88]

Re: Heroes and Nukes!

 

Villain, Vandals, and Vermin. He's one of Starburst's cronies.

[Inu]

Re: Heroes and Nukes!

 

Explosions of any type are really bad at digging into the ground, for the simple reason that the force goes in all directions. Much of it will hit the ground and reflect up, or be absorbed in compacting the earth, or spread out uselessly. Hence, conventional bombs may create devastation for hundreds of metres, but the crater will be far wider than it is deep, and a tiny fraction of the blast radius. Even nukes are like this, though with their greater power, the crater is larger.

 

Further, an airburst is the ideal detonation point for nukes only if you want a wide area of effect, or to avoid too much fallout. If you want to destroy something below ground, you want a ground burst or, preferably, a bunker-buster-style delivery system.

 

Though if the villain's base is above the ground, it will almost certainly be swept clean, as Treb said. We just tend to assume that villains have subterranean bases, or at least, bases with significant subterranean components.

 

As for the villain: they better be DAMN WELL SURE he's dead, because after this, if he's been pulling his punches at all, he won't in the future if he survives. On the other hand, if you're really playing a game where such a thing is necessary because the villain IS worse, I can't really fault them!

[Balabanto]

Re: Heroes and Nukes!

 

Well, let me tell you a story about nukes and warring masterminds. The PC's knew that Master villain A (Who shall remain nameless) was going to blow up the world in 72 hours.

 

One of the PC's got the bright idea of going to Warstar, and asking him for a nuke to blow up the villain's evil island in case the PC's failed. So he gave it to them.

 

You know, you could have A) Called other Superheroes. Asked other Superheroes for the chance to help them assault the island. C) Asked other hero teams to evacuate the west coast.

 

Instead, the villain boldly got on TV, being the cunning type he was, and said "Ladies and gentlemen, the esteemed superheroes of America have asked me to provide them with an atomic weapon, and I have graciously done so, free of charge. Always remember that it is Warstar who holds the fate of your planet precariously in his clutches."

 

It was the last time the PC's tried to get a nuke to do ANYTHING.

 

Five years later, the same villain, unbeknownst to anyone, successfully engineered nuclear disarmament the world over. He did it with mind control, genetic engineering, and, of course, a healthy dose of cash for those who were not altrusitic.

 

While it did work to Warstar's advantage, now when I say "He has an atomic bomb" it's exactly that 1960s, early 70's type reaction. "Oh my GOD! He's got an atomic bomb!"

[Metaphysician]

Re: Heroes and Nukes!

 

From a practicality perspective, if you really wanna nuke the megavillain, think precision. Instead of assembling some 300 megaton monster nuke and setting it off somewhere near his island, take something more in the 100 kiloton range or so, and sneak it inside his base to detonate. This works especially well if he has some kind of perimeter hardening like a buried base or a nuke-proof force shield. Suddenly, instead of protecting him, it magnifies the effect.

[OddHat]

Re: Heroes and Nukes!

 

Whatever you, as GM, want to happen.

 

Personally, I'd tell the player "No" and ask him to leave the game if he insisted; in my own campaign, setting off a nuke would turn the team into the world's most wanted terrorist group, more so that Al Queda. No government is going to trust a non-governmental group with nuclear weapons under any circumstances, and once a group has actually shown the willingness and ability to use such weapons there's no way back until they and all their associates are in custody.

 

You might make the point that killing all of guards, scientists, kitchen staff, native villagers, farmers, cleaning people, etc needed to make a villain's base work, without trial or legal authority, makes the PC a mass murderer.

 

I'd probably ask him to leave the group even for suggesting it.

[Edsel]

Re: Heroes and Nukes!

 

I seem to recall that one of the old Adventurers Club magazines (4th Edition), or perhaps it was one of the Hero System Almanacs (also 4th Ed.) had a write-up for the effects of a nuke. It had several different attackes in a sort of multiple powers attack. A concussive force blast, heat blast, NND KA Radiation attack, Flash, etc. I'll have to see if I can dig up that publication when I get home this evening.

[Greywind]

Re: Heroes and Nukes!

 

I'm trying to remember which HERO System book has a listing for a Nuke ... but I got nothin'.

 

I know I've seen it ... just don't know where.

I believe it was in either an Adventurer's Club issue or one of the Hero System Almanacs.

[OddHat]

Re: Heroes and Nukes!

 

I seem to recall that one of the old Adventurers Club magazines (4th Edition)' date=' or perhaps it was one of the Hero System Almanacs (also 4th Ed.) had a write-up for the effects of a nuke. It had several different attackes in a sort of multiple powers attack. A concussive force blast, heat blast, NND KA Radiation attack, Flash, etc. I'll have to see if I can dig up that publication when I get home this evening.[/quote']

 

Hero System Equipment Guide has one, and Star Hero defaults to s simple 20d6KA explosion, iirc.

 

If I felt I had to stat a 300 megaton nuke, I'd probably do it as something like a 30d6KA, Penetrating explosion, either with a reduced fade rate or Mega-area. The radiation I'd probably treat as an environmental effect rather than stating it out. That puts it at a level where a Superman type could just about survive without resorting to desolid, but any conventional structures could just be ruled "gone".

[OddHat]

Re: Heroes and Nukes!

 

Hero System Equipment Guide, p.131.

[assault]

Re: Heroes and Nukes!

 

One of the "heroes" in my group has access to a weapon like this and has a plan to secretly explode it over the island as cohertly as he can.

 

He only has access to it because you let him have access to it. That means you can deny him access to it.

 

Personally, I couldn't imagine a superhero game where PCs having access to nukes is a good idea.

 

The closest I have ever come is a character of mine who was rumoured to have actually carried the nukes to Hiroshima and Nagasaki. This was just table chatter, with no game impact intended, although the GM might have eventually run with it.

 

I don't know enough about your campaign to know if the "hero"'s plan is appropriate. He certainly wouldn't be able to get away with it in any campaign of mine. I might also have a discussion with the player about the nature of the genre, and what are appropriate actions within the campaign.

 

Note, of course, that this reaction is based on my idea of what is appropriate in a superheroic campaign. In a Science Fiction game, nuking the site from orbit is the only way to be sure...

 

As far a damage goes in game terms: are any PCs going to be caught in the blast (if any)? If not, just decide what effects the blast should have on any relevant NPCs.

[Pariah]

Re: Heroes and Nukes!

 

Just a few thoughts:

 

1. There is ABSOLUTELY NO WAY to detonate a 300 megaton nuclear (or is it 'nuk-ya-ler'?) weapon covertly. Satellite recon and seismograph stations make that sort of explosion impossible to miss. As soon as it goes off, the rest of the world is going to know about it

 

2. The effects of an unplanned, unsanctioned nuclear detonation would be provocative at best and catastrophic at worst. The very least that such an explosion would do is to set the entire world (see #1, above) at a state of heightened nuclear awareness, not unlike the scariest parts of the Cold War. At worst, it's not unlikely to arouse the wrath of some nation (India? Pakistan?) who's convinced that the attack is the work of their mortal enemies and launch a counterstrike. One thing leads to another, and pretty soon, all the nuclear nations are playing the game. World War III, anyone?

 

3. If, after the consequences discussed on this thread are revealed to him, your player still insists on nuking the island, Let him. But have him make appropriate skill rolls along the way. When he blows one, well, your campaign still has all the same problems as before, but at least that particular character's not around anymore to worry about them.

[Loxly]

Re: Heroes and Nukes!

 

Hero System Equipment Guide' date=' p.131.[/quote']

 

Yeah ... that's the one I was thinking of.

 

And you should say "starts on" ... since it ends on page 135.

[Shoutybloke]

Re: Heroes and Nukes!

 

Of course, your players could try leaking to the world the existance of said villain, and letting people know he has a bomb. That way, when you nuke him, it looks like he blew himself up.

This would of course, be a lot easier said than done, but it might be amusing to let them try

[Metaphysician]

Re: Heroes and Nukes!

 

I seem to recall that one of the old Adventurers Club magazines (4th Edition)' date=' or perhaps it was one of the Hero System Almanacs (also 4th Ed.) had a write-up for the effects of a nuke. It had several different attackes in a sort of multiple powers attack. A concussive force blast, heat blast, NND KA Radiation attack, Flash, etc. I'll have to see if I can dig up that publication when I get home this evening.[/quote']

 

Not worth bothering; that writeup was overpowered to the point of ludicry. Nukes are big, but they aren't Magic Armageddon Devices That End The World. They just blow up real big, big enough to wreck cities in one or two hits.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Heroes and Nukes!

 

As for heroes possessing nukes, depends on the heroes. Some heroes, it makes no sense for them to ever see a nuke. For others, it makes no sense why they would bother with something so small.

 

For instance, one of the PCs in my current campaign, Daedalus, could build a nuke easy. Its just, why would he want to? He's a scientific genius in the Reed Richards class; he could invent alot cleaner and more precise a solution than "Make Big Boom!"