Move-Through Broken?

[braincraft]

Re: Move-Through Broken?

 

You have three options, as I see it.

 

1. New rules. Buy your movement per turn rather than per phase, adjusting price as you see fit, and base move through calculations on inches/turn and phased movement on the (inches/turn)/SPD. Simple enough, but you are not playing the same game the rest of us are then.

 

2. Campaign fix. Require that everyone buy the same SPD.

 

3. Build fix. Buy extra dice LINKED to movement so that you get what you consider tot be the 'right' damage. OR, buy extra movement 'only for move through/by calculations'.

 

What you may wish to consider is that the high speed charatcer is already getting better value for his inches of movement - he's moving further per turn than someone who has paid the same points in flight but has a lower speed. If there is a broken aspect to all of this then that would be it to my mind. Same points in power having a different effect.

 

I don't really accept your 'what if' point, because haymaker doesn't work like that, at least in the enormously vast majority of cases, and if it DID in a very specialised build, I wouldn't feel bad about correcting it in the build. This is a specialised problem with the mechanics, but, see above, it is not insurmountable.

 

If I were designing Hero from scratch then I'd probably do something about the problems of SPD/move interactions, but it doesn't bother me enough to change it now.

 

Yeah, but in this thread, Willpower has declared that he won't accept a character-based fix, won't accept a house rule-based fix, and won't look up the optional rules in the book itself that would fix his problem.

 

I guess he's SOL, then, and it's no one's fault but his own.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Move-Through Broken?

 

Yeah, but in this thread, Willpower has declared that he won't accept a character-based fix, won't accept a house rule-based fix, and won't look up the optional rules in the book itself that would fix his problem.

 

I guess he's SOL, then, and it's no one's fault but his own.

 

There's still the Hero-is-hopelessly-broken-so-I'm-playing-d20 fix.

[archermoo]

Re: Move-Through Broken?

 

There's still the Hero-is-hopelessly-broken-so-I'm-playing-d20 fix.

 

True. But to me at least that is like noticing that your Ferrari's dash lights aren't quite bright enough, and so trading it in for a Pinto.

 

But maybe that's just me...

[Nekkidcarpenter]

Re: Move-Through Broken?

 

There's still the Hero-is-hopelessly-broken-so-I'm-playing-d20 fix.

 

I tried rolling up d20 guy recently.

 

I could feel my heart racing and I got short of breath and spots started appearing in front of my eyes.

 

Rolling up a guy. Without cool powers to design and build myself.

 

I had to go back on my meds.

 

And while I hate to make my unprovoked claims of munchkinnery across too many threads, the high powered move through can be a classic example of this.

 

Please note the 'can be', not automatically IS. I don't need more posts stating that I think someones beloved concept is an example of rules hacking and that I'm an idiot trying to force my views on others.

 

Ah, to heck with it. High powered move throughs ARE a classic example of munchkinnery.

 

Munchkin: Okay, I've got to buy up my Strength cause it's Strength. And then I need some increased movement cause I got to get close enough to use my Strength. And hmm.......

Wide eyed innocent pc: Hey, you know if you combine your Strength with your move you can do this thing called a 'move through'.

Munchkin reads. Eyes start to gleam, palms start to sweat. He buys his Strength and move to the campaign limits, and then a few weeks later subjects the GM to this attack.

Munchkin: I pick up a bus and run away from the fight.

GM: Uh, ok.

Munchkin: Then I turn around and accelerate to NONCOMBAT speed. I smash the bus into the bad guy. It's an AOE attack, and my 50 Strength and 50" of movement mean that its 10d6 + 16 1/2 d6..... What, is there some problem?

 

One of my solutions is to not allow the adding of Strength to a noncombat move through. The character is concentrating too much on moving and not enough on using his strength IMO. Sort of like the difference in a flying tackle and simply running into someone at full speed.

 

Also, I simply disallow attack rolls in situations where I deem there to be no reasonable chance of success.

 

And I'm aware that the combined Def and Body is too low to allow the munchkin to do his full damage. He still does a lot more than the 50 AP 'cap' that the campaign was supposed to have.

[archermoo]

Re: Move-Through Broken?

 

Munchkin: Okay' date=' I've got to buy up my Strength cause it's [u']Strength.[/u] And then I need some increased movement cause I got to get close enough to use my Strength. And hmm.......

Wide eyed innocent pc: Hey, you know if you combine your Strength with your move you can do this thing called a 'move through'.

Munchkin reads. Eyes start to gleam, palms start to sweat. He buys his Strength and move to the campaign limits, and then a few weeks later subjects the GM to this attack.

Munchkin: I pick up a bus and run away from the fight.

GM: Uh, ok.

Munchkin: Then I turn around and accelerate to NONCOMBAT speed. I smash the bus into the bad guy. It's an AOE attack, and my 50 Strength and 50" of movement mean that its 10d6 + 16 1/2 d6..... What, is there some problem?

 

Just out of curiosity, why are you particularly concerned about an attack that has at best a 1 in 216 chance of hitting?

[Willpower]

Re: Move-Through Broken?

 

You know' date=' a lot of people are here tossing out ideas to help fix a problem you've seen in your game, Willpower. The snarkiness is totally unnecessary.[/quote']

 

What snarkiness?

 

I know people are throwing out ideas to help, and they have, and I have said so.

 

If, by snarkiness, you are referring to the post above yours, I had ignored his previous posts, because I know from experience that whenever I comment on the 5ER with my true feelings on the issue, people have gotten me into trouble with the powers that be on it. So I ignored his previous posts. When he basically posted indicating that he felt I was ignoring him. I respoded with an explanation as to why I had not responded to him before. Namely, because I wanted to avoid getting an infraction. In explaining this to him, he (I assume, partly based on his response, if I am wrong I apologize for the assumption) decided it was necessary to report me for an infraction. (for what I do not know, other than criticizing Hero) Just affirming my standpoint that I should have kept ignoring his posts in the first place.

[Willpower]

Re: Move-Through Broken?

 

Yeah, but in this thread, Willpower has declared that he won't accept a character-based fix, won't accept a house rule-based fix, and won't look up the optional rules in the book itself that would fix his problem.

 

I guess he's SOL, then, and it's no one's fault but his own.

 

I never, ever said I won't accept a house rule fix. In fact, I have accepted one that was proposed, and I have said as much. Though, that doesn't make the thread or the conversation magically disappear, which is why we are all still here. I said I accepted having people figure their movement per Turn, and then dividing by a standardized SPD, so that all velocity works equally.

[archermoo]

Re: Move-Through Broken?

 

What snarkiness?

 

I know people are throwing out ideas to help, and they have, and I have said so.

 

If, by snarkiness, you are referring to the post above yours, I had ignored his previous posts, because I know from experience that whenever I comment on the 5ER with my true feelings on the issue, people have gotten me into trouble with the powers that be on it. So I ignored his previous posts. When he basically posted indicating that he felt I was ignoring him. I respoded with an explanation as to why I had not responded to him before. Namely, because I wanted to avoid getting an infraction. In explaining this to him, he (I assume, partly based on his response, if I am wrong I apologize for the assumption) decided it was necessary to report me for an infraction. (for what I do not know, other than criticizing Hero) Just affirming my standpoint that I should have kept ignoring his posts in the first place.

 

As a note from a moderator, criticizing Hero products doesn't get someone an infraction. As to infractions in general, the infraction notice itself contains the explaination as to why it was issued, so there is no reason anyone should be in the dark as to why they receive one. Anyone who doesn't fully understand the reasons is encouraged to reply to the infraction/warning for clarification.

 

And as a note, no one has reported any recent post of yours. Any actions taken have been taken because the moderators determined it was appropriate.

[Nekkidcarpenter]

Re: Move-Through Broken?

 

Just out of curiosity' date=' why are you particularly concerned about an attack that has at best a 1 in 216 chance of hitting?[/quote']

 

OCV 11 - 10 for velocity = OCV 1 with a multi hex improvised AOE vs DCV 3 (the hex the villain is standing in).

 

Simple math from 'Improvised Area of Effect Attacks in a Typical Urban Environment 101'.

 

Or as the guys who actually take the class call it: 'Throwing Cars'. The mentalists tack on 'For Dummies'.

 

I've thrown a lot of cars.

[archermoo]

Re: Move-Through Broken?

 

OCV 11 - 10 for velocity = OCV 1 with a multi hex improvised AOE vs DCV 3 (the hex the villain is standing in).

 

Simple math from 'Improvised Area of Effect Attacks in a Typical Urban Environment 101'.

 

Or as the guys who actually take the class call it: 'Throwing Cars'. The mentalists tack on 'For Dummies'.

 

I've thrown a lot of cars.

 

Except that when you are non combat your base OCV is 0.

 

So 0 - 10 for the movethrough is -10 OCV vs DCV of 3.

 

Simple math, as long as you take everything into account.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Move-Through Broken?

 

OCV 11 - 10 for velocity = OCV 1 with a multi hex improvised AOE vs DCV 3 (the hex the villain is standing in).

 

Simple math from 'Improvised Area of Effect Attacks in a Typical Urban Environment 101'.

 

Or as the guys who actually take the class call it: 'Throwing Cars'. The mentalists tack on 'For Dummies'.

 

I've thrown a lot of cars.

 

I've worked around this in my campaigns by disallowing cars.

 

Amish Champions rocks.

[Nekkidcarpenter]

Re: Move-Through Broken?

 

Except that when you are non combat your base OCV is 0.

 

So 0 - 10 for the movethrough is -10 OCV vs DCV of 3.

 

Simple math, as long as you take everything into account.

 

I'm not going to repeat my comment from elsewhere about your 'knowledge'.

 

Base OCV is your Dex based CV, not counting levels, correct?

 

(trying to imply that the character had 11 lvls when it was in fact only 5)

[Nekkidcarpenter]

Re: Move-Through Broken?

 

I've worked around this in my campaigns by disallowing cars.

 

Amish Champions rocks.

 

That seems perfectly reasonable.

[archermoo]

Re: Move-Through Broken?

 

I'm not going to repeat my comment from elsewhere about your 'knowledge'.

 

Base OCV is your Dex based CV, not counting levels, correct?

 

(trying to imply that the character had 11 lvls when it was in fact only 5)

 

It would be up to the Ref to determine if any combat levels are appropriate when the character is non-combat. I'm unaware of anything in the rules directly addressing it. But even with the 5 levels (assuming they got approved for non-combat use), you'd still need to roll a 3 to hit DCV 3.

 

I may not have G-A's briefcase full of rules, but I have been doing this for 25 years or so...

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Move-Through Broken?

 

As a note from a moderator, criticizing Hero products doesn't get someone an infraction. As to infractions in general, the infraction notice itself contains the explaination as to why it was issued, so there is no reason anyone should be in the dark as to why they receive one. Anyone who doesn't fully understand the reasons is encouraged to reply to the infraction/warning for clarification.

 

And as a note, no one has reported any recent post of yours. Any actions taken have been taken because the moderators determined it was appropriate.

 

For what it's worth, this is was the first time I had ever been given a warning. I generally don't post to threads in this forum unless I have something positive to add to the discussion.

[Greywind]

Re: Move-Through Broken?

 

Pg 363...

 

A character using Noncombat Movement moves as quickly as he can -- he isn't looking out for incoming attacks. A character's usual rate of Noncombat Movement is double his Combat Movement rate; he can increase this rate without increasing his Combat Movement (see Movement Powers, pages 122-25). While moving at Noncombat Movement velocity, a character is at 1/2 DCV and 0 OCV (and 1/2 DECV and 0 OECV, if appropriate). If the GM wants additional "realism," he can use the Velocity-Based DCV to determine the character's DCV, but the OCV of a character using Noncombat Movement is always 0.

 

Now, with the inclusion of always 0, I'd have to say that the always trumps any positive combat modifiers when at Noncombat speeds.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Move-Through Broken?

 

Pg 363...

 

[/i][/b]

 

Now, with the inclusion of always 0, I'd have to say that the always trumps any positive combat modifiers when at Noncombat speeds.

 

Which means that no dogfights could ever occur since all modern jets in HERO have to use Noncombat speeds to go faster than ~ 100 mph. Even the source material shows this is wrong: Superman would need 1000 points worth of flight just for chasing missiles (Superman I). This is one of the gray areas in the core rules. I think Ultimate Speedster has some suggestions but I don't have it handy to check right now.

[Greywind]

Re: Move-Through Broken?

 

Dogfights actually require the jets to slow down. There is a reason that we use a surplus of superiority fighters. Missile locks from miles away...

 

I never considered Superman chasing the missles to be anything more that dramatic plot device.

 

ETA: You could also write the whole thing off as a power stunt, requiring the use of the Power Skill. Player wants to constant do something in combat, at noncombat velocities, make him buy up his movement and disallow anything combat at noncombat speeds.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Move-Through Broken?

 

Dogfights actually require the jets to slow down. There is a reason that we use a surplus of superiority fighters. Missile locks from miles away...

 

I never considered Superman chasing the missles to be anything more that dramatic plot device.

 

But what speed are the jets slowing down to? My guess is that most occur somewhere between 300-600 mph. Hideously expensive if bought as straight flight without noncombat doubling.

 

Example from 5er page 476

 

F-15E Eagle

SPD = 5

MOVE = 38”x8

 

MOVE: This is listed as #x#; the first number is the vehicle’s maximum Combat Movement, and the second number is the vehicle’s Noncombat multiple.

[archermoo]

Re: Move-Through Broken?

 

Dogfights actually require the jets to slow down. There is a reason that we use a surplus of superiority fighters. Missile locks from miles away...

 

I never considered Superman chasing the missles to be anything more that dramatic plot device.

 

100 MPH is comfortably lower than the stall speed of any modern jet fighter. So slowing down that far for a dogfight isn't really reasonable.

[Greywind]

Re: Move-Through Broken?

 

Traveling faster than the speed of your bullets is detrimental to the continued service life of your vehicle...

[teh bunneh]

Re: Move-Through Broken?

 

I don't have my book in front of me, but aren't vehicles traveling at the same rate of speed considered full OCV/DCV against each other? Or maybe that's an optional rule...

[Willpower]

Re: Move-Through Broken?

 

I tried rolling up d20 guy recently.

 

I could feel my heart racing and I got short of breath and spots started appearing in front of my eyes.

 

Rolling up a guy. Without cool powers to design and build myself.

 

I had to go back on my meds.

 

And while I hate to make my unprovoked claims of munchkinnery across too many threads, the high powered move through can be a classic example of this.

 

Please note the 'can be', not automatically IS. I don't need more posts stating that I think someones beloved concept is an example of rules hacking and that I'm an idiot trying to force my views on others.

 

Ah, to heck with it. High powered move throughs ARE a classic example of munchkinnery.

 

Munchkin: Okay, I've got to buy up my Strength cause it's Strength. And then I need some increased movement cause I got to get close enough to use my Strength. And hmm.......

Wide eyed innocent pc: Hey, you know if you combine your Strength with your move you can do this thing called a 'move through'.

Munchkin reads. Eyes start to gleam, palms start to sweat. He buys his Strength and move to the campaign limits, and then a few weeks later subjects the GM to this attack.

Munchkin: I pick up a bus and run away from the fight.

GM: Uh, ok.

Munchkin: Then I turn around and accelerate to NONCOMBAT speed. I smash the bus into the bad guy. It's an AOE attack, and my 50 Strength and 50" of movement mean that its 10d6 + 16 1/2 d6..... What, is there some problem?

 

One of my solutions is to not allow the adding of Strength to a noncombat move through. The character is concentrating too much on moving and not enough on using his strength IMO. Sort of like the difference in a flying tackle and simply running into someone at full speed.

 

Also, I simply disallow attack rolls in situations where I deem there to be no reasonable chance of success.

 

And I'm aware that the combined Def and Body is too low to allow the munchkin to do his full damage. He still does a lot more than the 50 AP 'cap' that the campaign was supposed to have.

 

Hehe, That brings up something I had to do once. I made a move Through based Character named Silver bullet, who used Powered Armor for his powers. With him I had to significantly limit his strength and his flight, so that I would NOT have a munchkin-type character.

[archermoo]

Re: Move-Through Broken?

 

Traveling faster than the speed of your bullets is detrimental to the continued service life of your vehicle...

 

But keep in mind that the muzzle velocity of a projectile is relative to the speed of the muzzle, not the earth. As long as the muzzle is traveling at the same speed as the plane you should be just fine. Granted the bullets will tend to slow down faster than they would had they been fired from a vehicle at rest, but then again the air at the altitude they are generally fired at is a mite thinner as well, so it balances out at least some.

[Greywind]

Re: Move-Through Broken?

 

Wasn't it the A-10 that tended to chew up its nose when it fired its autocannon?