lets make this work: Instant Change

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: lets make this work: Instant Change

 

I think some people are focusing on the wrong area here. Instant Change (and OIHID) exist because of a *genre convention* in comic book superhero-type fiction. They exist practially nowhere else. They really shouldn't have ever been included in FREd or 5ER, but in Champions.

 

Captain Kirk, Luke Skywalker, Indiana Jones, Gandalf, Conan, Bruce Lee, ... none of them have to change into a different costume/form/identity in order to deal with a crisis situation that comes up. Many (perhaps most) superheroes do.

 

Some superheroes can do so easily. Some have secred IDs to protect and need to find some privacy to change clothes. Some can change instantly, but still have to protect the secret ID. Some don't have to protect a secret ID, but it might take them a while to get into the armor.

 

These kinds of issues can (if the GM wants) matter in the game, and therefore should be reflected with point costs. By standard rules in Champions, or to be more precise, a genre convention, it takes a bit of time to switch costumes/forms/identities. A character who doesn't have to take this time, should have to pay more than a character that does. By the standard rules, the character buys Instant Change. Another way to handle it, would be to give the guy who does have to take time, a Disadvantage.

 

Tony Krats has no powers at all when he's not in his armor (OIHID), and it takes him a while to put it on (No Instant Change), and he also has a Secret ID, so he can't put on the armor in full view of his fellow hi-tech millionaire friends.

Dan Bloke has no powers when not in Divine Screwdriver form (OIHID), but all he has to do is tap his walking stick on the ground and he changes form (Instant Change), and the stick turns into his mystic screwdriver, Mcraftsmir, but he has a secret ID so he can't just do this anywhere.

Pete Park has full access to his amazing SquirrelMan powers all the time (No OIHID), but he has a secret ID to protect, and it takes a little time to change out of his regular clothes and put on his squirrel-suit (No Instant Change).

And so forth.

[Comic]

Re: lets make this work: Instant Change

 

The old convention for calculating the DEF and BODY of foci were: 1 DEF per 5 AP, 1 BODY per 10 AP, unless the focus itself provided more DEF or BODY through one of its powers (eg Armor, FF, Growth, or just plain buying BODY as a characteristic with the focus limitation).

 

Too warm here at the moment to trouble looking for the current rules.

[Nekkidcarpenter]

Re: lets make this work: Instant Change

 

Now, your powers are always active, you don't need to do anything to use them. But if you want to look cool you gotta jump into that phone booth and switch from the business suit to the Superman threads...

 

 

My only quibble with G-A here is his assertion that somewhere, somehow, it's possible to look cool dropping trou in a phone booth.

 

Maybe Elisha Cuthbert changing into Supergirl. Maybe.

[Tech]

Re: lets make this work: Instant Change

 

I think some people are focusing on the wrong area here. Instant Change (and OIHID) exist because of a *genre convention* in comic book superhero-type fiction. They exist practially nowhere else. They really shouldn't have ever been included in FREd or 5ER, but in Champions.

 

Captain Kirk, Luke Skywalker, Indiana Jones, Gandalf, Conan, Bruce Lee, ... none of them have to change into a different costume/form/identity in order to deal with a crisis situation that comes up. Many (perhaps most) superheroes do.

 

Some superheroes can do so easily. Some have secred IDs to protect and need to find some privacy to change clothes. Some can change instantly, but still have to protect the secret ID. Some don't have to protect a secret ID, but it might take them a while to get into the armor.

 

These kinds of issues can (if the GM wants) matter in the game, and therefore should be reflected with point costs. By standard rules in Champions, or to be more precise, a genre convention, it takes a bit of time to switch costumes/forms/identities. A character who doesn't have to take this time, should have to pay more than a character that does. By the standard rules, the character buys Instant Change. Another way to handle it, would be to give the guy who does have to take time, a Disadvantage.

 

Tony Krats has no powers at all when he's not in his armor (OIHID), and it takes him a while to put it on (No Instant Change), and he also has a Secret ID, so he can't put on the armor in full view of his fellow hi-tech millionaire friends.

Dan Bloke has no powers when not in Divine Screwdriver form (OIHID), but all he has to do is tap his walking stick on the ground and he changes form (Instant Change), and the stick turns into his mystic screwdriver, Mcraftsmir, but he has a secret ID so he can't just do this anywhere.

Pete Park has full access to his amazing SquirrelMan powers all the time (No OIHID), but he has a secret ID to protect, and it takes a little time to change out of his regular clothes and put on his squirrel-suit (No Instant Change).

And so forth.

 

I notice you mentioned the armor concept as being OIHID, which is fine for some and not others. If it's OIHID, none of the powers can be attacked, damaged or whatnot, grabbed away, etc etc that a foci can run into. A foci powered armor (OIF, not OIHID) can be targeted & attacked and even destroyed without injuring the inside user, whereas lethal attacks on on a OIHID armor character will leave the character dead, instead of merely having the armor destroyed. It is for this that we use foci powered armor in our campaign for the heroes. This gets off the point of Instant Change to an extent.

 

There is nothing wrong with having someone who uses foci powered armor to use Instant Change to instantly have the armor around him. Secret Identities are the norm in the campaign I'm in so it's a problem like anyone else. As it is a foci powered armor, it is subject to specialized attacks, it can be rendered useless while the inside character is helpless, it can be destroyed leaving the character without use of his foci and so on.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: lets make this work: Instant Change

 

I notice you mentioned the armor concept as being OIHID, which is fine for some and not others. ....

 

There is nothing wrong with having someone who uses foci powered armor to use Instant Change to instantly have the armor around him. ....

Of course. I was just using those particular builds as examples. The point was to illustrait how these differences make a real difference in play. In superhero settings, it is very common, if not universal, that characters will have some difficulty changing from Joe Average into Amazing Man. There are (at least) three different difficulties they may encounter:

 

1. They need to change identities without revealing to others that Joe Average and Amazing Man are one and the same.

2. It takes some inconvenient amount of time to change identities.

3. Joe has no access to his Amazing powers while in Joe form.

 

To keep the system fair, characters that have to deal with these difficulties should pay less than characters that don't.

 

As the current rules stand, if you have to deal with difficulty #1, you get a Disadvantage called Secret ID. If you don't have to deal with #1, you don't get that disad.

 

If you don't have to deal with difficulty #2, you pay for a power called Instant Change. If you do have to deal with #2, you don't buy this power. (All right folks, no snickering about "number two"!)

 

If difficulty #3 is a problem for you, you take a Limitation on your powers called "Only in Hero ID" (or Focus, if you prefer). If #3 is not a problem you have to deal with, then you don't take that limitation.

 

Each of these three difficulties is independent of the other two. I'll bet an astute comic-book geek could list examples of all eight possible combinations.

 

Reed Richards doesn't have any of these difficulties.

Iron Man (during some parts of his career) had to deal with all three.

Thor (in his early days) had 1 and 3, but not 2.

Spider Man has 1 and 2, but not 3.

Flash (IIRC) usually has 1 only, but not 2 or 3.

 

And we might reasonably disagree about how much each of these difficulties (or the "privilege" of avoiding them) is "worth." And also, some GMs may run campaigns in which one or more of them will be irrelevent and therefore, not worth anything as a Disad, a Lim, or a Power. For example a GM might decide that he never wants to run any secret ID crises, in which case secret ID shouldn't be allowed as a disad (or is worth no points). Or he might want to run such scenarios all the time, in which case the disad would be worth more than normal.

[ghost-angel]

Re: lets make this work: Instant Change

 

If you don't have to deal with difficulty #2' date=' you pay for a power called Instant Change. If you do have to deal with #2, you don't buy this power. (All right folks, no snickering about "number two"!)[/quote']

 

I only disagree with this point, in many cases:

 

If you don't have to deal with difficulties of getting access to your powers (no time involved) you can do nothing.

 

If you do have difficulty you have Extra Time (and it's brother Extra Time Only To Activate), OIHID (which requires a Full Phase), or similar.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: lets make this work: Instant Change

 

I only disagree with this point, in many cases:

 

If you don't have to deal with difficulties of getting access to your powers (no time involved) you can do nothing.

 

If you do have difficulty you have Extra Time (and it's brother Extra Time Only To Activate), OIHID (which requires a Full Phase), or similar.

But what if you already have full access to your powers, but you just can't instantly change into your super-suit? There's no Extra Time or OIHID on your powers themselves.

[ghost-angel]

Re: lets make this work: Instant Change

 

But what if you already have full access to your powers' date=' but you just can't instantly change into your super-suit? There's no Extra Time or OIHID on your powers themselves.[/quote']

 

No, I agree to an extent - you need Instant Change to change your costume instantly. I just don't think it's a requirement in even most cases, just some cases.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: lets make this work: Instant Change

 

Just something I don't think anybody's thought about (I didn't until just now). Most of the time, characters on patrol aren't in combat time. How often does a character need to switch in combat? In most of the source material, the hero is moseying along in his secret identity, and the crime happens or whatever, the hero changes, and suddenly it seems like it's segment 12.

 

Also, I know the game specifies that it takes a full Phase to change clothes, but it's also a trope of the superheroic genre that the character is wearing his supersuit under his civilian clothes. Whoosh and he's changed!

 

Just a couple of things to think about.

[Zorak1003]

Re: lets make this work: Instant Change

 

Let's face it, it was dumb to change the power. Nothing wrong at all with an arbitrary 5 points or so for certain characters to be able to zap inot their super hero costumes. It has no effect on combat, and could easily be a given for certain characters, anyway- The Flash comes to mind, or anypne else with super speed.

 

I'd say grandfater it in, use a custom power in Hero Designer, and thumb your nose at anyone who doesn't like it.

[Force]

Re: lets make this work: Instant Change

 

Let's face it, it was dumb to change the power. Nothing wrong at all with an arbitrary 5 points or so for certain characters to be able to zap inot their super hero costumes. It has no effect on combat, and could easily be a given for certain characters, anyway- The Flash comes to mind, or anypne else with super speed.

 

I'd say grandfater it in, use a custom power in Hero Designer, and thumb your nose at anyone who doesn't like it.

 

QFT

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: lets make this work: Instant Change

 

Also' date=' I know the game specifies that it takes a full Phase to change clothes, but it's also a trope of the superheroic genre that the character is wearing his supersuit under his civilian clothes. Whoosh and he's changed! [/quote']

 

How long does it take you to change clothes? 1 phase seems to emulate the genre trope quite well.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: lets make this work: Instant Change

 

How long does it take you to change clothes? 1 phase seems to emulate the genre trope quite well.

 

Outside of combat, an indeterminate amount of time which may as well be instantaneous.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: lets make this work: Instant Change

 

Outside of combat' date=' an indeterminate amount of time which may as well be instantaneous.[/quote']

 

Most Supers also change out of combat. Let me posit an "out of combat" example where the indeterminate amoint of time being instantaneous or some other measure is important. The "character" is in the basement family room with his wife's best friend. Their clothes are scattered about the room. He has just heard that fifth stair creak, as his wife arrived home unexpectedly early and is on her way downstairs to get some food out of the freezer. Is that indeterminate amount of time it will take them to get dressed a period that "might as well be instantaneous"?

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: lets make this work: Instant Change

 

No' date=' I agree to an extent - you need Instant Change to change your costume instantly. I just don't think it's a requirement in even most cases, just some cases.[/quote']

True. In fact, upon further reflection, I may be slightly incorrect about the independence of those three problems. If you have no secret ID to protect, and you have full access to your powers all the time, it makes very little difference if it takes time to chance out of your civilian clothes.

 

So if you don't have to deal with either #1 or #3, then #2 really doesn't matter almost ever. There's nothing to stop you doing your hero stuff in your everyday clothes.

 

Off hand, I can only think of two areas where it might matter:

1. You don't want to mess up the regular clothes you're wearing. Joe Average is getting married today, and is already in his tuxedo when the bad guy strikes. He's not getting his deposit back. - Plot device at best.

2. PRE Attacks may be impaired if you're just wearing normal clothes. - This may have an in-game effect.

 

And for Chris Goodwin:

That full phase to change clothes can make a big difference. How many civilians can be killed by the bad guy in that time? How far away might he get from the scene of the crime? etc.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: lets make this work: Instant Change

 

2. PRE Attacks may be impaired if you're just wearing normal clothes. - This may have an in-game effect.

 

This implies some PRE is purchased with the focus "Costume". I'd say it's a non-issue for most characters. It could make it harder to recognize the hero, and thus have his reputation apply, I suppose.

[ghost-angel]

Re: lets make this work: Instant Change

 

This implies some PRE is purchased with the focus "Costume". I'd say it's a non-issue for most characters. It could make it harder to recognize the hero' date=' and thus have his reputation apply, I suppose.[/quote']

 

Or you have a Reputation. Good Rep adds directly to PRE Attacks, Bad Rep may or may not depending on the situation. Outside of cosutme that Rep as "Beam Boy" may not apply if they can't recognize you as Beam Boy instead of Some Guy Shooting Beams At Me.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: lets make this work: Instant Change

 

This implies some PRE is purchased with the focus "Costume". I'd say it's a non-issue for most characters. It could make it harder to recognize the hero' date=' and thus have his reputation apply, I suppose.[/quote']

Hmmm... I'd tend to call that "double dipping". A PRE attack assumes as a starting point "normal" circumstances. A superhero gets a base PRE attack based on his PRE/5. That already assumes he's wearing his costume, because that's the normal circumstance for a superhero's presence attack. If circumstances are unfavorable, the dice he gets are reduced. Not wearing his presumably impressive costume would be an unfavorable circumstance. Clark Kent dressed as a mild-mannered reporter is not as impressive as the big red S and cape.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: lets make this work: Instant Change

 

Hmmm... I'd tend to call that "double dipping". A PRE attack assumes as a starting point "normal" circumstances. A superhero gets a base PRE attack based on his PRE/5. That already assumes he's wearing his costume' date=' because that's the normal circumstance for a superhero's presence attack. If circumstances are unfavorable, the dice he gets are reduced. Not wearing his presumably impressive costume would be an unfavorable circumstance. Clark Kent dressed as a mild-mannered reporter is not as impressive as the big red S and cape.[/quote']

 

A Champions game includes normals and people in costume. Is a 20 PRE non-Super (ie who has no costume) more impressive in suit and tie than a 20 PRE Superhero? Would that non-Super get a bonus to his PRE when dressed up as a Super?

 

What if my character is very charming? Do his PRE skills drop when he's not in costume? His DNPC reporter's PRE skills don't drop - would they be enhanced if we gave him a costume?

 

To me, two characters who paid the same points for the same stat ought to get the same benefits.

[Vondy]

Re: lets make this work: Instant Change

 

Talent. Flat Cost. 5 Points.

 

I admit it - I have atavistic hero tendencies.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: lets make this work: Instant Change

 

A Champions game includes normals and people in costume. Is a 20 PRE non-Super (ie who has no costume) more impressive in suit and tie than a 20 PRE Superhero? Would that non-Super get a bonus to his PRE when dressed up as a Super?

No. Because it wouldn't be the normal circumstance for the normal.

 

What if my character is very charming? Do his PRE skills drop when he's not in costume? His DNPC reporter's PRE skills don't drop - would they be enhanced if we gave him a costume?

No and no.

 

To me, two characters who paid the same points for the same stat ought to get the same benefits.

They do. They both get the starting point for a PRE Attack that they paid for. This starting point is then modified for circumstances, like always.

[ghost-angel]

Re: lets make this work: Instant Change

 

I think what Phil is saying is that your PRE doesn't go down when out of costume - but the type of PRE Attack you perform changes.

 

Guy In A Business Suit, no matter how impressive, may not make Destructor The Mangler stop what he's doing, he may pause and go "huh, impressive little man aren't you? Now I shall squish you."

 

Superman on the other hand might make Destructor The Mangler not only pause, but go "Oh, hi Superman, I was just helping this bus across the street. Don't mind me."

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: lets make this work: Instant Change

 

No. Because it wouldn't be the normal circumstance for the normal.

**********************************************************

They do. They both get the starting point for a PRE Attack that they paid for. This starting point is then modified for circumstances, like always.

 

Let's take two characters. The first has a 20 PRE. By your logic, he has 20 PRE when in his SuperSuit (his "default ID") and some lesser amount, because of diminished circumstances, in his Secret ID.

 

The second has 15 PRE, +5 OIHID. When he's in his SuperSuit, he has 20 PRE, since that's HID. What happens when he isn't in his SuperSuit? He has 15 PRE. That's his natural state, since he needs to adopt a separate state to be a Super.

 

Character 2 paid 1 point less to be exactly the same as Character 1 if I follow your approach, since Character 1 loses effective PRE when he's not in hero ID, even though he got no Limitation for that limitation.

[Nekkidcarpenter]

Re: lets make this work: Instant Change

 

I think what Phil is saying is that your PRE doesn't go down when out of costume - but the type of PRE Attack you perform changes.

 

Guy In A Business Suit, no matter how impressive, may not make Destructor The Mangler stop what he's doing, he may pause and go "huh, impressive little man aren't you? Now I shall squish you."

 

Superman on the other hand might make Destructor The Mangler not only pause, but go "Oh, hi Superman, I was just helping this bus across the street. Don't mind me."

 

 

Well, Dracula's just a guy in a tux. And Dirty Harry always seemed pretty impressive in his suit too.

 

 

 

Yes, if you have multiple ID's then you might not get the benefit of a reputation(if you have one) in your secret ID, but if you've spent 30 points on Pre then people will stop to listen to you. Presence and Strength cost the same, and 40 Pre has the same relationship to a normal persons Pre that 40 Str does to that guys Str. Now, Destructor might not be impressed overly much by it anymore than he's impressed by 40 Str, but he also might. He might be less impressed by a guy in spandex than a guy in a muscle tee; there's no hard and fast rule.

 

 

I'm aware that everyone knows that. About the hard and fast thing, I mean.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: lets make this work: Instant Change

 

Let's take two characters. The first has a 20 PRE. By your logic' date=' he has 20 PRE when in his SuperSuit (his "default ID") and some lesser amount, because of diminished circumstances, in his Secret ID.[/quote']

Not at all. I never said it, and I never implied it. He has 20 PRE, all the time. When he makes a Presence Attack, he starts with a base of 4d6. If the circumstances of this presence attack are such that it would be less impressive to not be in his superhero regalia, then he might receive a penalty, such as -1d6. Hence my original statement:

 

"2. PRE Attacks may be impaired if you're just wearing normal clothes. - This may have an in-game effect."

 

The second has 15 PRE, +5 OIHID. When he's in his SuperSuit, he has 20 PRE, since that's HID. What happens when he isn't in his SuperSuit? He has 15 PRE. That's his natural state, since he needs to adopt a separate state to be a Super.

 

Character 2 paid 1 point less to be exactly the same as Character 1 if I follow your approach, since Character 1 loses effective PRE when he's not in hero ID, even though he got no Limitation for that limitation.

But they're not exactly the same. Character 2 (for reasons yet to be explained) becomes less skilled with his interaction skills when he's not wearing his supersuit. He becomes a worse actor, worse conversationalist, etc. Character 1 does not lose any PRE, under any circumstances. Both are subject to circumstance modifiers when they try to perform interaction skills and when they attempt PRE attacks.

 

If you see Superiorman flying over the crowd telling them to proceed quickly and calmly out of the area for your own safety, you're likely to obey, thinking, "Oh! Superiorman is here! That's a relief! I feel reassured. I'll do what he says and things will be OK."

 

But if you see Mark Ment flying over the crowd in his suit and tie, telling you what to do, you're likely to think, "Oh, no! Suddenly, in the midst of this crisis, there's a flying man! What's going on? Has the world gone mad?"