Sports Mechanics and Atheletes

[Brogahn]

I hope this is the correct forum to start this discussion.

 

At one point, I understood that HERO was going to produce a book along the lines of "Everyman" which would detail all sorts of walks of life and such. In the constant effort to understand the various numbers mean especially in a heroic and even a super heroic campaign I continue to fall back on using professional atheletes as a "yard stick".

 

My question is how would you simulate a game of basketball, a batter at the plate, or a 60 yard offensive drive ending in a forward pass touch down? What charateristics do Offensive Lineman have vs Quarterbacks, running backs, and recievers. I am curious if anyone has ever tackled this as some of the classic moments in X-men comics were those baseball games or evena bit of basketball.

 

I would love to hear from some learned and experience HERO players.

 

Thank you very much

 

Brogahn

[BNakagawa]

Re: Sports Mechanics and Atheletes

 

At the low end of the detail spectrum, you could just roll skill vs skill with appropriate stat and skill rolls being complimentary.

 

Breaking down sports to a set of skill rolls can still yield some pretty detailed results if you work on defining what players are good and bad at. A certain QB may have levels only usable when rolling out of the pocket to his right, whereas an offensive lineman may have levels only for run blocking.

 

Segmented movement just doesn't lend itself to simulating sports, so actually modeling the action using the combat system is going to yield some very unrealistic results.

[mattingly]

Re: Sports Mechanics and Atheletes

 

In Digital Hero #23, there's a 9-page article on playing baseball using the HERO System.

[David Blue]

Re: Sports Mechanics and Atheletes

 

What does it take, normally, in Hero, to be a seriously hopeful Olympic level swimmer?

 

I ask, because I'm playing a normal mentalist 14 year old kid whose big ambition is to win a medal in a sport where (a) his mental powers grant him no advantage and ( where 16 is a normal retirement age. His one big shot at glory will be the 2008 Olympics.

 

He has 6" Swimming, 10 DEX, 13 CON, 13 BODY and 8 REC, PS Swimming 8-, and wants to swim 1500m freestyle.

 

I haven't seen stats for what someone in his sport should have. Is he a bright, shining prospect, or does he need to be reincarnated with much better stats?

 

The gamemaster has given me great freedom to define uncertain things in whatever way will best set up exciting struggles for the game. (Who cares if the villains distract him the night before, if the gold medal is either a lock or out of reach?)

 

The best way to start seems to be to ask people who know the system better than I do for suggestions. What's important to build up? What would the competition look like? What would be a good way to simulate a hard race, or is that not something Hero would do well?

[McCoy]

Re: Sports Mechanics and Atheletes

 

He has 6" Swimming' date=' 10 DEX, 13 CON, 13 BODY and 8 REC, PS Swimming 8-, and wants to swim 1500m freestyle.[/quote']

What's his SPD?

 

Current world record in the 1500m is 14:34.56. 1500 m is 750 scale inches, divide by 6" swimming and he can cover that in 125 phases. At SPD 4 he can swim that in 6 minutes, 15 seconds. Even at SPD 2 he can make it in 12 minutes, 30 seconds.

 

But that assumes no END problems. 13 CON, has a base 26 END, 6" swimming cost -- 1 END. So expending 2 END per turn with an 8 REC he is not even winded at the end of 1500 m. OTOH, a lot of the sport of swimming is coordinating your breathing with the other body motions, so I would not consider it unreasonable to require a sucessful PS: Swimming roll to get the post phase 12 REC.

[Outsider]

Re: Sports Mechanics and Atheletes

 

Buying up one's stats at all in HERO system tends to allow the character to tromp all over athletic world records.

 

Consider the 1500m swim. The men's world record is 14 minutes 34.56 seconds (876.56 seconds).

 

In HERO terms, this is 750 hexes in ~73 turns, or just over 10 hexes a turn.

 

To be a world class swimmer in HERO : Keep your everyman swimming (2") and buy your SPD up to 3. Better to do it this way than to keep your starting SPD and buy your Swimming up, since the END cost on 2" of movement rounds down to 0, meaning you dont suffer any LTE effects.

 

2" Swimming per phase * 3 SPD *2 NCM = 12" Swimming per turn.

 

Your time on the 1500m will actually be 62.5 Turns, or 12 minutes 30 seconds, or 750 seconds.

 

Even if we say that the swimmer can not maintain non combat speed when he has to turn around on each lap (a 50m pool is used) then each crossing of the pool takes 7 phases* which at SPD 3 is 28 seconds. Crossing the pool 30 times (1500m) then takes 840 seconds, and you're STILL beating the world record, albeit by only ~35 seconds instead of more than 2 minutes.

 

*(An intial phase at combat (2") followed by 5 phases at full non combat (20") and one phase at non combat (3") to finish the 25m lap)

 

 

Heaven forbid someone who has bought their SPD and Swimming to "Normal Characteristic Maximum" jumps in the pool. 4 SPD and 5" Swimming = 10"/phase (non-combat) with each phase being 3 seconds. This equals 750" in 3 mintues 45 seconds. That -really- blows the world record out of the water, so to speak.

 

Sure, since they have 5" of movement, they're paying 1 END per phase (4 END per turn) but they recover all that every post 12. All they really have to worry about is LTE. But even if they're using 4/turn and have only a 4 REC, they're not going to run out of END in 3 minutes 45 seconds.

[McCoy]

Re: Sports Mechanics and Atheletes

 

D'oh! I totally forgot NCM!

[Duke Bushido]

Re: Sports Mechanics and Atheletes

 

 

But that assumes no END problems. 13 CON, has a base 26 END, 6" swimming cost -- 1 END. So expending 2 END per turn with an 8 REC he is not even winded at the end of 1500 m. OTOH, a lot of the sport of swimming is coordinating your breathing with the other body motions, so I would not consider it unreasonable to require a sucessful PS: Swimming roll to get the post phase 12 REC.

 

Aye!

 

McCoy has pointed out a very real issue, if you're trying to model it realistically. I've never participated in 'sprint' type-- or many "What? No wheels? No engines?" sports at all,

 

But I have a nephew who is on his high-school track team, and he talks about a lot, particularly the training.

 

He is a sprinter, but it's interesting to note that while sprinting should-- and rightly does-- eat gobs of endurance, he cannot marathon distances at any speed more than about half-again his sprinting distance before tiring and starting to become winded.

 

A marathon runner, assuming a lower rate of speed and a higher NCM to simulate being being set-in for a long term steady pace should be able to cover an equal distance-- a greater distance-- with less END cost, particularly if the marathon is several kilometers.

 

 

But in HERO, END is universal. If you have 100 END, you have 100 END, reduced only by what you spend it on. A sprinter might draw 50 END when modeled under HERO, which would leave him 50 more END to continue.

 

 

As I re-read this, I realize that I'm wording this in the poorest possible fashion, but I can't really come up with a way to better express it. Therefore, I should simply close with my thought:

 

You might consider an END reserve of sorts to power the swimming, or upping the END cost to a point where he is 'properly' exhausted upon completing his event.

 

I'll leave this to those more familiar with physical training to expound upon or correct as needed.

 

Sorry I couldn't do better.

[casualplayer]

Re: Sports Mechanics and Atheletes

 

There's also the initial dive into the water (maybe + Leaping?) with a Skill Roll to carry your Leap acceleration into your Swim, and the flip off the wall may also be considered a Leap as well. The 1500m is virtually 30 50m sections beginning with a thrust with the legs. Might want to consider some Lightning Reflexes to beat the swimmer with the identical move rate but a higher DEX. Plus you can Push your Swim!

 

Might be enough here for that Swim HERO book after all.

[Manic Typist]

Re: Sports Mechanics and Atheletes

 

Long Term Endurance for the marathon runner.

[David Blue]

Re: Sports Mechanics and Atheletes

 

What's his SPD?

 

He is SPD 3. And thanks guys for these helpful comments!

[McCoy]

Re: Sports Mechanics and Atheletes

 

Might be enough here for that Swim HERO book after all.

Or at least a chapter on "Swimming without Life Support" for Aquatic Hero.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Sports Mechanics and Atheletes

 

To answer the David Blue post, I might well say that the question is not so much ' would the character win the 2008 Olympic 1500m in THIS world, but would he win it int he game world. That will depend on everyone else. I'd assume that most characters are going to be pushing or even exceeding human limits for characteristics, so I'd guess your swim hopeful is going to ahve to compare with all the other swim hopefuls. I'd imagine there would be little to tell between the Olympic swimmers in terms of base stats.

 

Personally I'd tend to deal with races between characters of similar ability as a contest of skills.

 

You could buy a PS: SWIMMER, and you could buy it as a skill for each of the strokes, or pay for levels for each of the strokes, anyway. that would explain how two characters with 6" swim and SPD 4, one consistently wins at butterfly, and the other at breaststroke.

 

Modifiers: For each +1" move advantage +2 on the skill roll. For each +1 SPD advantage, +5 on the skill roll.

 

You may wish to make DEX and CON rolls complimentary (better DEX is a better start and turn, better CON means you are able to push that little bit harder.

 

Don't worry about the finishing time, worry about the finishing order. World records would be set when you roll really well.

 

You could even do it as an extended contest; each length, or after so many lenghts, (say 5 or 10, for a 1500m) you roll, and your position is your cumulative total of successes.

 

For example:

 

Character A has 7" swim and SPD 3, 20 CON and 15 DEX, PS: Breaststroke at 14- REC 10

 

Character B has 6" swim and SPD 4, 12 CON and 16 DEX, PS Breaststroke at 12- REC 10

 

Character A has 14- (+2 for +1" move) = 16-

 

Character B has 12- (+5 for SPD) = 17-

 

Character A will average +2 on his CON roll and +1 on his DEX roll, so adds, on average +1 or +2

 

Character B will average +0 on his CON roll and +1 on his DEX roll, so adds, on average +0 or +1.

 

It will be a close call who wins...both will average a +6 result, butt he variation could be substantial.

 

This is completely ad hoc, you understand, but should provide an interesting race. Feel free to mess with the mechanics, it is just a suggestion

 

REC: if END/turn exceeds REC, either reduce your move or SPD so that you are within your REC, or actually factor in the END loss per turn and compare that to END - you can swim at full speed until then, then you have to slow or drop out.

 

Finally you can also have EGO as a complimentary skill - in essence you are pushing when you can. You can either make an EGO roll to push, and increase your move by the appropriarte amount, or use the EGo roll as another complimentary skill, with the caveat that each success = 1 extra END/turn.

[David Blue]

Re: Sports Mechanics and Atheletes

 

To answer the David Blue post, I might well say that the question is not so much ' would the character win the 2008 Olympic 1500m in THIS world, but would he win it int he game world. That will depend on everyone else. I'd assume that most characters are going to be pushing or even exceeding human limits for characteristics, so I'd guess your swim hopeful is going to ahve to compare with all the other swim hopefuls. I'd imagine there would be little to tell between the Olympic swimmers in terms of base stats.

 

Personally I'd tend to deal with races between characters of similar ability as a contest of skills.

 

You could buy a PS: SWIMMER, and you could buy it as a skill for each of the strokes, or pay for levels for each of the strokes, anyway. that would explain how two characters with 6" swim and SPD 4, one consistently wins at butterfly, and the other at breaststroke.

 

Modifiers: For each +1" move advantage +2 on the skill roll. For each +1 SPD advantage, +5 on the skill roll.

 

You may wish to make DEX and CON rolls complimentary (better DEX is a better start and turn, better CON means you are able to push that little bit harder.

 

Don't worry about the finishing time, worry about the finishing order. World records would be set when you roll really well.

 

You could even do it as an extended contest; each length, or after so many lenghts, (say 5 or 10, for a 1500m) you roll, and your position is your cumulative total of successes.

 

For example:

 

Character A has 7" swim and SPD 3, 20 CON and 15 DEX, PS: Breaststroke at 14- REC 10

 

Character B has 6" swim and SPD 4, 12 CON and 16 DEX, PS Breaststroke at 12- REC 10

 

Character A has 14- (+2 for +1" move) = 16-

 

Character B has 12- (+5 for SPD) = 17-

 

Character A will average +2 on his CON roll and +1 on his DEX roll, so adds, on average +1 or +2

 

Character B will average +0 on his CON roll and +1 on his DEX roll, so adds, on average +0 or +1.

 

It will be a close call who wins...both will average a +6 result, butt he variation could be substantial.

 

This is completely ad hoc, you understand, but should provide an interesting race. Feel free to mess with the mechanics, it is just a suggestion

 

REC: if END/turn exceeds REC, either reduce your move or SPD so that you are within your REC, or actually factor in the END loss per turn and compare that to END - you can swim at full speed until then, then you have to slow or drop out.

 

Finally you can also have EGO as a complimentary skill - in essence you are pushing when you can. You can either make an EGO roll to push, and increase your move by the appropriarte amount, or use the EGo roll as another complimentary skill, with the caveat that each success = 1 extra END/turn.

 

Thanks, Sean. Based on the ideas in this thread, I had already been moving to different but equivalent stats, and PS, Swimming rolls as a tie-breaker (possibly with butterfly, backstroke etc. as separate skills, just for the races), but this makes everything much more specific and ready to present to the gamemaster as something we can do in the lead-up races and in 2008.

 

Definitely we'll be racing for places, not times.

[Maur]

Re: Sports Mechanics and Atheletes

 

A marathon runner' date=' assuming a lower rate of speed and a higher NCM to simulate being being set-in for a long term steady pace should be able to cover an equal distance-- a greater distance-- with less END cost, particularly if the marathon is several kilometers.[/quote']

 

A marathon is 26 miles and change. Else it wouldn't be a marathon, heheh.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marathon#History

[BobGreenwade]

Re: Sports Mechanics and Atheletes

 

Somewhere, somehow, we really are eventually going to need Sports Hero.