VPPs and Game World Logic

[Warp9]

Re: VPPs and Game World Logic

 

I'd treat this as -1/4 "Limited Class of Powers Available: Pre Approved Psychokinetic Abilities with Limited Raw Power". Then I'd discuss what I felt Raw Power meant with the player' date=' and write up a list of sample powers. "You can have no more than STR 10 TK, but a 2d6KA NND Does Body defined as reaching into his brain is fine". No different than the limits on a magic system as you create a fantasy world. Maybe I'd go to -1/2 on if I felt the list was limited enough.[/quote']

That is an interesting idea. . . .

 

But what if there were multiple characters with this ability who had different levels of power? It would seem like there would need to be some ratio between max TK STR and the size of the pool.

 

If a guy with a 90 point Psyhokinesis pool has 10 STR TK, then perhaps a guy with a 145 point pool could go up to 15 STR TK?

[Warp9]

Re: VPPs and Game World Logic

 

You give him an insanely high ampount of points, and despair as game balance goes down the tube-unless the game is filed with characters of similar powers, and very amazing defenses that shrug off this sort of thing.

 

This is a great example of why it is important to understand the gamist/narrativist/simulationist perspective.

 

I would describe your argument as coming from a gamist perspective, which is fine. And you are correct about the game balance thing--that is a concern.

 

However, I am coming from a simulationist perspective (at least at the moment). And I'm not so interested right now as to whether or not this concept is a good idea from a pure game play stand point.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: VPPs and Game World Logic

 

Sometimes when you're stuck on one idea of how a Character is put together (everything must go in the VPP or EC, or strait) you will run into limitations on how well that concept plays out and is built.

 

 

I'd rep you if I could...

(If only to keep you from getting stuck in the 80's!)

[Warp9]

Re: VPPs and Game World Logic

 

re: razor-thin TK blade

I don't think this sfx demands a huge amount of damage. Rather, it's the perfect place for multiple levels of AP, Penetrating and/or NND which won't need many DC's to be effective. Add IPE and AOE 1 hex accurate and you have pretty deadly 1d6 RKA at =60 active points.

If we are dealing with a hyper-thin blade that can carve through flesh and bone like a hot knife through butter, we may be talking about something that can cut people in half with a single swipe, that would be a pretty big attack.

[Warp9]

Re: VPPs and Game World Logic

 

Hyper-Man has a point...

 

what exactly is meant bu "huge amounts of damage"?

 

I regularly see Champions characters with 60AP in Offensive, buy only 20AP in Movement

Powers.

 

Is this "huge amounts" compared to a Normal? then we might be talking 3D6KA or so - only 45AP. That same AP in Flight is a lot of inches. 20" x4 Non Combat, not slow by any means.

 

Is it "Harder" to get Flight because the AP Restriction on Movement is lower (you can get at best 10AP or 5" of Flight; compared to 60AP in a KA or 4D6.

 

That sounds like it's "harder" to achieve flight that it is a killing blade.

 

Perhaps what is called for is not Flight to cost more comparitely, but to have different limits, requirements and mandatory Limitations.

You could definitely approach things that way with this example, but once you go far enough along that route, it seems like it is not too much different than changing the point cost.

 

Again with Hyper-Man's ideas ... VPPs are "Attack Powers Only" or as he suggested "Non Self Affecting Powers"

 

Everything else must be bought either strait - now your Power is limited by Character Points.

The problem with that solution is that IMO it is too narrow.

 

The real problem in the TK example is not that we are dealing with a specific class of power, the problem is that the world logic doesn't mesh with the game logic. It is a conflict between equality of abstract Hero point values vs the equality of various theoretical applications of force.

 

There are many other things which you could do with a very flexible TK, the problem is that often times (from a world logic perspective) X units in power A are not the same as X units in power B. The flight vs psi-blade is just one example of the problem.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: VPPs and Game World Logic

 

Here is what I am hearing from your request --

 

"Despite the obvious fact that this is a game system that is intended to be played with at least a modicum of power balancing, wherein the ability to kill other characters is priced at a premium due to the total potential affect on a campaign of killing key characters, I'm going to pretend that the rules should instead be balanced against my rather fuzzy conceptualization of how force and the application of force by a person with a mind that is able to do such things by will alone should work."

 

 

So, ok, if thats the way you think it should work and you're ok with the clear and obvious issues this would cause in an actual game, go ahead and make it work like that. The most direct way is to change the costs of powers by SFX. To be fair, if you do it for one character, you should do it for all, right?

 

So, how this would work in practice is like a new Power Framework. We'll call it a "SFX Reserve" for now.

 

With a SFX Reservethe Player puts aside a Pool of points which represents the maximum Active Points of Powers a Player can take with the Reserve at any given time.

 

The GM and Player then work out and document an "Effect Contract" that simply states what kind of effects (not Powers or Power constructs) should be difficult, routine, or easy based upon their character's SFX. Regardless of the Power Constructs involved, things that are not covered by the Effect Contract are simply not possible with the Reserve.

 

The Effect Contract functions by applying a cost differential to effects that are easy or difficult, allowing a character to use abilities of variable Active Point values based upon how difficult it is for their character rather than using the default costs of effects in the HERO System mechanics.

 

Things that are agreed to be difficult in the Effect Contract have a cost differential of x2 -- whatever the Active Points of the power are, they are multiplied by x2 to determine if they fit into the Reserve. Thus in a SFX Reserve with 50 points in it, Difficult effects would be limited to 25 AP or less.

 

Things that are agreed to be routine in the Effect Contract have no cost differential; their Active Points are not adjusted to determine if they fit into a SFX Reserve. Thus routine effects with 70 Active Points or less could be used in a SFX Reserve with 70 points.

 

Things that are agreed to be easy in the Effect Contract have a cost differential of x.5 -- whatever the Active Points of the Power are, they are multipled by x.5 (or divided by 2 if you prefer) to determine if they fit into a SFX Reserve. Thus easy effects with 100 Active Points or less could be taken in a SFX Reserve with 50 points.

 

Only one Power construct can be taken in a SFX Reserve at any given time, but this Power construct can be changed as a 0 Phase Action with no Skill Roll required. Since only one Power construct is usable at a time, unlike a VPP the Real Cost of the Power construct effectively has no meaning.

 

In addition to the cost of the SFX Reserve at a 1:1 ratio, each Difficult effect costs the Reserve / 20 in character points, each Routine effect costs the Reserve / 10 in character points, and each easy effect costs the Reserve / 5 in character points. Further a character must have one difficult effect for each easy effect, and the number of easy effects must be less than the number of routine effects. A character can have as many difficult effects as they like (at the normal cost).

 

Thus, assuming a 50 point Reserve, an easy effect costs 10 points, a routine effect costs 5 points, and a difficult effect costs 2.5 points rounded to 2 points.

 

A SFX Reserve cannot be mixed with other Frameworks; you can't take a SFX Reserve inside of a VPP or vice versa for instance (a character can have multiple separate Frameworks including a SFX Reserve as normal). A character can also have more than one SFX Reserve, either for multiple SFX of for the same SFX. Powers used from within a SFX Reserve are subject to all normal rules including END costs, activation, targeting, and so forth.

 

Modifiers can be applied to a SFX Reserve, but if they are then they are automatically applied to any effects taken in the Reserve and effects that cannot legally have such modifiers applied to them are not valid. Modifiers do not affect the cost of Effect Contract items.

 

Example:

 

Forceboy has a SFX Reserve with the SFX of Psychokinetic Force Manipulation. He has 50 points in his Reserve. Forceboys Player and GM have agreed on the following contract:

 

* Levitate self (Hard): 2 points

* Move other things around by will alone (Routine): 5 points

* Make protective force barriers (Routine): 5 points

* Project force attacks (Routine): 5 points

* Make monomolecular-width force planes (Easy): 10 points

 

Total Cost: 77

 

 

Example:

 

Firechick has a SFX Reserve with the SFX of Fire Generation and Manipulation. She has 100 points in her Reserve. Firechick's Player and GM have agreed on the following contract:

 

* Control Fire (Hard): 5 points

* Evaporate / Melt Ice / Water (Routine): 10 points

* Rocket flight (Routine): 10 points

* Make a protective fire aura (Routine): 10 points

* Project fire attacks (Easy): 20 points

 

Total Cost: 155

 

 

 

That's from the hip, but theres probably something playable in there somewhere.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: VPPs and Game World Logic

 

It would seem that using a VPP for this character would be the perfect choice—but there is a problem: the logic of this world doesn’t match the logic of the game in terms of point equivalence.

 

From the “world view” the character is limited by raw PK force, but that force, used in different applications is not always equal value in Hero terms. . . .

 

For example, if the character focuses his PK into an almost infinitely thin blade, then it doesn’t take much raw force to do a HUGE amount of damage. Or the character could also very easily do massive internal damage with very little force by focusing his power inside a target’s brain. However, just hovering in the air requires lifting one’s whole body mass against the force of gravity which would be a significant application of force.

 

This is where game balance steps on logic. Is it easier to acquire a handgun and the rudiments of its use, to become a proficient user of 3 languages or to gain professional-level skill in three separate fields? Clearly the handgun is the easiest of the three. It costs more points, not for realism, but for balance - it will be the most useful, most frequently, in most games, so it carries the highest cost.

 

An "instant death" power may be perfectly logical based on the power suite, but it's unbalancing to the game. Levitation is not so potent, so it costs less.

 

In-game reasoning? Focusing your PK energy on a task that fine, and an area that minute, requires vastly more focus, soncentration and skill than the gross task of shifting a large object through space.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: VPPs and Game World Logic

 

This is a great example of why it is important to understand the gamist/narrativist/simulationist perspective.

 

I would describe your argument as coming from a gamist perspective, which is fine. And you are correct about the game balance thing--that is a concern.

 

However, I am coming from a simulationist perspective (at least at the moment). And I'm not so interested right now as to whether or not this concept is a good idea from a pure game play stand point.

 

Then the simple answer is to design the desired abilities mechanically, but ignore the point costs. The character can achieve whatever damage levels you feel are appropriate for his psi-blade, and levitate at whatever speeds you feel are appropriate for his psi-power. Characters need not have equal points - their concept defines what they can and cannot do. The player coould well have a 150 point VPP, but not have any movement powers over 20 AP that he can put in that VPP, based on its SFX.

[Warp9]

Re: VPPs and Game World Logic

 

Here is what I am hearing from your request --

 

"Despite the obvious fact that this is a game system that is intended to be played with at least a modicum of power balancing, wherein the ability to kill other characters is priced at a premium due to the total potential affect on a campaign of killing key characters, I'm going to pretend that the rules should instead be balanced against my rather fuzzy conceptualization of how force and the application of force by a person with a mind that is able to do such things by will alone should work."

 

 

So, ok, if thats the way you think it should work and you're ok with the clear and obvious issues this would cause in an actual game, go ahead and make it work like that. The most direct way is to change the costs of powers by SFX. To be fair, if you do it for one character, you should do it for all, right?

 

So, how this would work in practice is like a new Power Framework. We'll call it a "SFX Reserve" for now.

 

With a SFX Reservethe Player puts aside a Pool of points which represents the maximum Active Points of Powers a Player can take with the Reserve at any given time.

 

The GM and Player then work out and document an "Effect Contract" that simply states what kind of effects (not Powers or Power constructs) should be difficult, routine, or easy based upon their character's SFX. Regardless of the Power Constructs involved, things that are not covered by the Effect Contract are simply not possible with the Reserve.

 

The Effect Contract functions by applying a cost differential to effects that are easy or difficult, allowing a character to use abilities of variable Active Point values based upon how difficult it is for their character rather than using the default costs of effects in the HERO System mechanics.

 

Things that are agreed to be difficult in the Effect Contract have a cost differential of x2 -- whatever the Active Points of the power are, they are multiplied by x2 to determine if they fit into the Reserve. Thus in a SFX Reserve with 50 points in it, Difficult effects would be limited to 25 AP or less.

 

Things that are agreed to be routine in the Effect Contract have no cost differential; their Active Points are not adjusted to determine if they fit into a SFX Reserve. Thus routine effects with 70 Active Points or less could be used in a SFX Reserve with 70 points.

 

Things that are agreed to be easy in the Effect Contract have a cost differential of x.5 -- whatever the Active Points of the Power are, they are multipled by x.5 (or divided by 2 if you prefer) to determine if they fit into a SFX Reserve. Thus easy effects with 100 Active Points or less could be taken in a SFX Reserve with 50 points.

 

Only one Power construct can be taken in a SFX Reserve at any given time, but this Power construct can be changed as a 0 Phase Action with no Skill Roll required. Since only one Power construct is usable at a time, unlike a VPP the Real Cost of the Power construct effectively has no meaning.

 

In addition to the cost of the SFX Reserve at a 1:1 ratio, each Difficult effect costs the Reserve / 20 in character points, each Routine effect costs the Reserve / 10 in character points, and each easy effect costs the Reserve / 5 in character points. Further a character must have one difficult effect for each easy effect, and the number of easy effects must be less than the number of routine effects. A character can have as many difficult effects as they like (at the normal cost).

 

Thus, assuming a 50 point Reserve, an easy effect costs 10 points, a routine effect costs 5 points, and a difficult effect costs 2.5 points rounded to 2 points.

 

A SFX Reserve cannot be mixed with other Frameworks; you can't take a SFX Reserve inside of a VPP or vice versa for instance (a character can have multiple separate Frameworks including a SFX Reserve as normal). A character can also have more than one SFX Reserve, either for multiple SFX of for the same SFX. Powers used from within a SFX Reserve are subject to all normal rules including END costs, activation, targeting, and so forth.

 

Modifiers can be applied to a SFX Reserve, but if they are then they are automatically applied to any effects taken in the Reserve and effects that cannot legally have such modifiers applied to them are not valid. Modifiers do not affect the cost of Effect Contract items.

 

Example:

 

Forceboy has a SFX Reserve with the SFX of Psychokinetic Force Manipulation. He has 50 points in his Reserve. Forceboys Player and GM have agreed on the following contract:

 

* Levitate self (Hard): 2 points

* Move other things around by will alone (Routine): 5 points

* Make protective force barriers (Routine): 5 points

* Project force attacks (Routine): 5 points

* Make monomolecular-width force planes (Easy): 10 points

 

Total Cost: 77

 

 

Example:

 

Firechick has a SFX Reserve with the SFX of Fire Generation and Manipulation. She has 100 points in her Reserve. Firechick's Player and GM have agreed on the following contract:

 

* Control Fire (Hard): 5 points

* Evaporate / Melt Ice / Water (Routine): 10 points

* Rocket flight (Routine): 10 points

* Make a protective fire aura (Routine): 10 points

* Project fire attacks (Easy): 20 points

 

Total Cost: 155

 

 

 

That's from the hip, but theres probably something playable in there somewhere.

 

Those are some good ideas.

 

My main problem with that set up is that, if one really wanted to be able to cover all variations of a flexible power, then having to pay points for each effect would get pretty expensive.

 

I'm thinking that it might be better if it was set so that easy effects were 1:1 and everything else was more expensive than 1:1, that way it could be more like a VPP with a limitation. You'd just buy a pool that was large enough to cover the biggest "easy" power, then the other powers would fall into place from there.

[Warp9]

Re: VPPs and Game World Logic

 

Then the simple answer is to design the desired abilities mechanically' date=' but ignore the point costs. The character can achieve whatever damage levels you feel are appropriate for his psi-blade, and levitate at whatever speeds you feel are appropriate for his psi-power. Characters need not have equal points - their concept defines what they can and cannot do. The player coould well have a 150 point VPP, but not have any movement powers over 20 AP that he can put in that VPP, based on its SFX.[/quote']

 

As you say, characters do not need to have equal points, in fact all the point costs could even be hidden from the Players and the Characters as well. The problem is that once you get to the stage of VPPs, and multipowers, the cost of one ability compared to another becomes a part of the character's awareness.

 

Anyway, to get to your specific example, a character with a 150 point VPP using a 20 point movement power would still have 130 points left in the pool, this does not give the same feel as a character who has been pushed to the very outmost limits of his TK ability.

 

It has already been pointed out that high END cost might simulate "being at the very outmost limits of TK ability" but it is more likely that this END limitation would simply stop the character from doing a given action for an extended period---it seems to me that we'd want things to be a bit more limited than that.

[Oruncrest]

Re: VPPs and Game World Logic

 

Oddhat's got the basics of it: Limit the powers that can be used and replace the powers you don't want with more expensive alternatives. For example, lets say your character has a 75pt PK Pool and he wants to levitate over everyone's heads while slicing off one or two. the slicing off heads part is easy (3D6 RKA costing 45 pts), but instead of using Flight (15" costing 30 pts), buy Flight-Capable Telekinesis (from The Ultimate Mentalist). 20 STR Flight-Capable TK costs 45 active points, but if you allow the Self Only Limitation, it becomes 30 real points. Using it on yourself means that you can 'throw' yourself 4" (as a Standing Throw, assuming you weigh in the neighborhood of 100kg). If you devote the whole 75 APs to F-CTK, you can have 33 STR, enough to 'throw' yourself 9". Is F-CTK much more expensive than Flight? Sure is. Does it provide the effect you're looking for? I'll let you be the judge of that.

 

Alternately, you can define the amount of force you're using with the other great equalizer of HERO - END Cost. determine beforehand the END cost of your power mechanics (say, for instance, RKA and TK cost ×1 END, Flight costs ×3 END), now 5 inches of Flight costs as much END as 2D6 RKA or 20 STR TK, even though it's Real Cost is significantly less than either (5 RP compared to 30RP for TK or RKA).

 

Hope one of these ideas helps.

[Oruncrest]

Re: VPPs and Game World Logic

 

Somehow I missed Ghost-Angel's post when I was thinking about END. M'i bad.

 

It has already been pointed out that high END cost might simulate "being at the very outmost limits of TK ability" but it is more likely that this END limitation would simply stop the character from doing a given action for an extended period---it seems to me that we'd want things to be a bit more limited than that.

 

You could also add a limitation to your VPP defining how much END one could use at one time (say, Maximum Total END usable by VPP = 25, -½ if you want to be able to use one power at full effectiveness and another power at slightly less).

[Killer Shrike]

Re: VPPs and Game World Logic

 

Those are some good ideas.

 

My main problem with that set up is that, if one really wanted to be able to cover all variations of a flexible power, then having to pay points for each effect would get pretty expensive.

Actually, if you do the math, its much less expensive than a VPP already. At a certain point the difference between a VPP style "Only for X"; -1/4 and having to pay for each general broad type of effect would meet somewhere in the middle.

 

Also, if you really think about it, at the level of generality I gave as examples, there aren't really _that many_ different potential effects. You'd have to start getting very specific to make a really long list.

[ghost-angel]

Re: VPPs and Game World Logic

 

The only issue I have is that you're focusing on Active Points being the defining characteristic of "difficult"

 

Two players come to you and say "I have psychokensis, here's how it works - making a physical force blade is very easy. Moving existing objects very hard" and the other says "I'm a Telekinetic, moving objects around is very easy to do, but creating force out of apparent nothing is hard to do - like a 'solid air' force wall."

 

Now you have two conflicting statements about what is easy and hard - but both are valid concepts to work with. One creates force with their mind, one moves forces around with their mind.

 

Do you now, as a GM, have to go around and rewrite the costs of every Power in the book depending on how they might be used by each SFX?

 

Whil Killer Shrikes suggestion/example is a solid idea it seems to undermine the idea of the game. Now you're munchkinising not only Power Builds but SFX Builds "If I define it just right ... it'll be cheaper!!"

 

And quite frankly - I think it'll end up being 1) more trouble than you want 2) severely break the game and 3) aggravate people.

 

Imagine the player that says I'm gonna play Cosmic Force Man - everything is really easy to create for me; It's all just some force of Cosmic Force after all.....

 

It sounds like a can of worms you don't want to open.

[Warp9]

Re: VPPs and Game World Logic

 

Actually, if you do the math, its much less expensive than a VPP already. At a certain point the difference between a VPP style "Only for X"; -1/4 and having to pay for each general broad type of effect would meet somewhere in the middle.

 

Also, if you really think about it, at the level of generality I gave as examples, there aren't really _that many_ different potential effects. You'd have to start getting very specific to make a really long list.

You might be right, although, on the other hand there might be more effects than you'd think. I'm guessing that, if you spend some time looking at every effect you could possibly imagine, you'd get a pretty long list.

 

For example, you'd have to include off the wall stuff like using your PK power to create vibrations, and thus make sound images. Once you include Pyro/Cyro Kinesis and all the things you could do with that, the list expands further.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: VPPs and Game World Logic

 

As you say, characters do not need to have equal points, in fact all the point costs could even be hidden from the Players and the Characters as well. The problem is that once you get to the stage of VPPs, and multipowers, the cost of one ability compared to another becomes a part of the character's awareness.

 

Anyway, to get to your specific example, a character with a 150 point VPP using a 20 point movement power would still have 130 points left in the pool, this does not give the same feel as a character who has been pushed to the very outmost limits of his TK ability.

 

Limit the VPP (or the power within it) with Lockout that causes it to take up more AP than it normally would. You're changing the rules, so go ahead and change them!

[Warp9]

Re: VPPs and Game World Logic

 

The only issue I have is that you're focusing on Active Points being the defining characteristic of "difficult"

 

Two players come to you and say "I have psychokensis, here's how it works - making a physical force blade is very easy. Moving existing objects very hard" and the other says "I'm a Telekinetic, moving objects around is very easy to do, but creating force out of apparent nothing is hard to do - like a 'solid air' force wall."

 

Now you have two conflicting statements about what is easy and hard - but both are valid concepts to work with. One creates force with their mind, one moves forces around with their mind.

I asssume that moving objects requires Force.

 

Force = Mass X Acceleration

 

Both those examples you gave above are thus examples of creating a force with one's mind.

 

The difference that you are talking about is (in Physics terms) Pressure. The same force could applied over a large area, for a gentle push (low pressure), or a very small area for an effect like that of landing on a razor blade (high pressure).

 

Like I said, it sounds to me like both examples are dealing with the same thing---so I don't see the contradiction.

 

Do you now, as a GM, have to go around and rewrite the costs of every Power in the book depending on how they might be used by each SFX?

Maybe. That is one possble outcome of what we are talking about.

 

Whil Killer Shrikes suggestion/example is a solid idea it seems to undermine the idea of the game. Now you're munchkinising not only Power Builds but SFX Builds "If I define it just right ... it'll be cheaper!!"

 

And quite frankly - I think it'll end up being 1) more trouble than you want 2) severely break the game and 3) aggravate people.

 

Imagine the player that says I'm gonna play Cosmic Force Man - everything is really easy to create for me; It's all just some force of Cosmic Force after all.....

 

It sounds like a can of worms you don't want to open.

That is why I don't like the part of Killer Shrike's suggestion/example of making some powers cheaper than they are in the book. It seems that the way to go is to get a huge pool (enough to buy the high AP effects) and make some specific effects more expensive. That way nobody gets a good deal, but some people get a bad deal.

 

Of course that means you'd have to actually give the points to buy that HUGE pool. Aut that would also entail specifying a new price list for each effect in each pool.

[Warp9]

Re: VPPs and Game World Logic

 

Limit the VPP (or the power within it) with Lockout that causes it to take up more AP than it normally would. You're changing the rules' date=' so go ahead and change them![/quote']

Yep. That is basically what I'm currently thinking.

[Warp9]

Re: VPPs and Game World Logic

 

You could also add a limitation to your VPP defining how much END one could use at one time (say' date=' Maximum Total END usable by VPP = 25, -½ if you want to be able to use one power at full effectiveness and another power at slightly less).[/quote']

That is an interesting concept.

[Trebuchet]

Re: VPPs and Game World Logic

 

If we are dealing with a hyper-thin blade that can carve through flesh and bone like a hot knife through butter' date=' we may be talking about something that can cut people in half with a single swipe, that would be a pretty big attack.[/quote']One wonders what would be "easy" about poking a precise "telekinetic knife" through the epidermis and skull of another metahuman who is not at all interested in allowing this character to peacefully perform his illicit psychic surgery?

 

And if he can only do it to normals, what's so special about that? Most supers can kill a normal in a single blow, especially if we're talking about using Hit Location: Head. An 8d6 or 10d6 Punch to the skull of almost any normal for a 2X BODY multiple of will kill them almost instantly.

[ghost-angel]

Re: VPPs and Game World Logic

 

I asssume that moving objects requires Force.

 

Force = Mass X Acceleration

 

Both those examples you gave above are thus examples of creating a force with one's mind.

 

The difference that you are talking about is (in Physics terms) Pressure. The same force could applied over a large area, for a gentle push (low pressure), or a very small area for an effect like that of landing on a razor blade (high pressure).

 

Like I said, it sounds to me like both examples are dealing with the same thing---so I don't see the contradiction.

 

Well - now that you've brought real world physics into a conversation about creating "knives" of psychokinetic force ....

 

I don't think you're interested in our actual opinions on the matter.

 

Do whatever.

 

 

Because - no they are NOT the same. One guy said he could create psychic force into a physical object (PK-knife) easily the other said he could move existing objects easily. They have difficulty with their opposing counterparts. I don't see how that's the same.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: VPPs and Game World Logic

 

Mixing Logic and Telekinesis is a fun exercise...

 

Built as a multipower instead of VPP only for ease of viewing example slots.

 

130 Realistic Psychokinesis: Multipower, 87-point reserve, all slots Invisible to Sight Group (+1/2) (130 Active Points) - END=

9u 1) Mental Hands: Telekinesis (10 STR), Affects Porous, Fine Manipulation, Indirect (Same origin, any direction; +1/2), Line Of Sight (+1/2), Area Of Effect (One Hex; +1/2) (87 Active Points) - END=9

9u 2) Squeeze Internal Organs: Killing Attack - Ranged 1d6, Area Of Effect Accurate (One Hex; +1/2), Line Of Sight (+1/2), Indirect (Any origin, any direction; +3/4), No Normal Defense ([standard]; +1), Does BODY (+1), Continuous (+1) (86 Active Points) - END=9

9u 3) Mental Knife: Killing Attack - Ranged 1d6, Line Of Sight (+1/2), Area Of Effect Accurate (One Hex; +1/2), Indirect (Any origin, any direction; +3/4), Armor Piercing (x2; +1), Continuous (+1), Penetrating (x2; +1) (86 Active Points) - END=9

8u 4) Mental Movement: Flight 14", Position Shift, x4 Noncombat, combat acceleration/deceleration (+1/4), No Turn Mode (+1/4), Usable Underwater (+1/4), No Gravity Penalty (+1/2) (85 Active Points) - END=8

 

And here's a more powerful version that only allows "attack action" abilities.

 

182 Realistic Psychokinesis 2: Multipower, 52-point reserve, all slots Costs END Only To Activate (+1/4), Area Of Effect Accurate (One Hex; +1/2), Line Of Sight (+1/2), Invisible to Sight Group (+1/2), Indirect (Any origin, any direction; +3/4) (182 Active Points) [Notes: Because it has Advantages that are only legal on powers that target others (like AOE) self targeting powers (like Flight) cannot be put in this Multipower.] - END=

5u 1) Mental Hands: Telekinesis (21 STR), Affects Porous, Fine Manipulation (52 Active Points) - END=5

5u 2) Squeezing Internal Organs: Killing Attack - Ranged 1d6-1, No Normal Defense ([standard]; +1), Does BODY (+1), Continuous (+1), +5 Increased STUN Multiplier (+1 1/4) (52 Active Points) - END=5

5u 3) Mental Knife: Killing Attack - Ranged 1d6, Armor Piercing (+1/2), Continuous (+1), Penetrating (x2; +1) (52 Active Points) - END=5

[Warp9]

Re: VPPs and Game World Logic

 

One wonders what would be "easy" about poking a precise "telekinetic knife" through the epidermis and skull of another metahuman who is not at all interested in allowing this character to peacefully perform his illicit psychic surgery?

The question of "being able to hit" with the power is not the same as what happens when you do apply your attack to the target.

 

And if he can only do it to normals, what's so special about that? Most supers can kill a normal in a single blow, especially if we're talking about using Hit Location: Head. An 8d6 or 10d6 Punch to the skull of almost any normal for a 2X BODY multiple of will kill them almost instantly.

I believe that you are missing the point here.

 

Yes, most superheroes can do fairly major attacks, but that is not the point.

 

My question is about creating specific character concepts using VPPs. One specific example was a character concept of a VPP being based upon Telekinetic force. The character could use this force for a number of different options limited by his max force, his control (which we are going to assume is excellent), and his imagination. In many ways this ability fits into the VPP concept. The problem is that the tradeoffs between abilities do not always fit Hero active point schemes.

 

In Hero, 2d6 RKA = 30 points = 15" Flight

 

But that set of equalities do not fit with the character's VPP concept. The character would not be able to do 15" flight, and yet he could manage a much larger KA.

 

 

To use a different example, let us imagine that we want to simulate characters from a book about Teleporters. In the book, we have mages who can do a wide variety of tricks based upon Teleportation and space warps. In the book, Teleportation is based upon mass and distance. Therefore a mage, who may not be powerful enough to teleport himself 3 feet, could still teleport a much lighter target, like some target's head, across the room (thus killing the target).

 

This is all well and good but there is a contradiction here. The Hero rules have been crafted with game balance in mind. Because of this fact, they tell us that Teleporting a target's head off his body is a very high point attack, whereas teleporting yourself 3 feet is pretty cheap. However our source material makes it so that it takes less "Teleport Power" to teleport the target's head only.

 

Now, if we are just going to build the characters in a very straightf orward manner, we can give them any abilities that we want. The characters don't have to know anything about Hero point structure. But once the characters start using things like VPPs, it puts point costs back into the game play situation. For example, my character knows that he has a choice between X" flight and Y points Growth. And in most cases this equivalence between abilities is set by the Hero rules.

 

I'm just exploring different ways to make VPPs work like the source material. Having a mage who can barely t-port 3 feet, and yet can kill almost any target by teleporting his head off of his body, may not be a good idea for a game. But, I'd like to have the best option to do such things if I wanted to.

[Warp9]

Re: VPPs and Game World Logic

 

Well - now that you've brought real world physics into a conversation about creating "knives" of psychokinetic force ....

 

I don't think you're interested in our actual opinions on the matter.

 

Do whatever.

 

 

Because - no they are NOT the same. One guy said he could create psychic force into a physical object (PK-knife) easily the other said he could move existing objects easily. They have difficulty with their opposing counterparts. I don't see how that's the same.

I guess I was misunderstanding you, I assumed that the PK knife was a simple manifestation of force.

 

But to address the point which I now believe that you were making: yes, there could be many conflicting cost schemes for buying a power based upon the individual pool. Maybe one guy could do only very limited Force Walls and yet could apply force to objects effectively, whereas a different character could make more powerful Force Walls, but not have much ability to apply his power to moving objects.

 

Or maybe one mage has great power over the physical world with his magic, but only small ability to do illusions. And an illusionist-mage might have the opposite problem.

[Warp9]

Re: VPPs and Game World Logic

 

Mixing Logic and Telekinesis is a fun exercise...

 

Built as a multipower instead of VPP only for ease of viewing example slots.

 

130 Realistic Psychokinesis: Multipower, 87-point reserve, all slots Invisible to Sight Group (+1/2) (130 Active Points) - END=

9u 1) Mental Hands: Telekinesis (10 STR), Affects Porous, Fine Manipulation, Indirect (Same origin, any direction; +1/2), Line Of Sight (+1/2), Area Of Effect (One Hex; +1/2) (87 Active Points) - END=9

9u 2) Squeeze Internal Organs: Killing Attack - Ranged 1d6, Area Of Effect Accurate (One Hex; +1/2), Line Of Sight (+1/2), Indirect (Any origin, any direction; +3/4), No Normal Defense ([standard]; +1), Does BODY (+1), Continuous (+1) (86 Active Points) - END=9

9u 3) Mental Knife: Killing Attack - Ranged 1d6, Line Of Sight (+1/2), Area Of Effect Accurate (One Hex; +1/2), Indirect (Any origin, any direction; +3/4), Armor Piercing (x2; +1), Continuous (+1), Penetrating (x2; +1) (86 Active Points) - END=9

8u 4) Mental Movement: Flight 14", Position Shift, x4 Noncombat, combat acceleration/deceleration (+1/4), No Turn Mode (+1/4), Usable Underwater (+1/4), No Gravity Penalty (+1/2) (85 Active Points) - END=8

 

And here's a more powerful version that only allows "attack action" abilities.

 

182 Realistic Psychokinesis 2: Multipower, 52-point reserve, all slots Costs END Only To Activate (+1/4), Area Of Effect Accurate (One Hex; +1/2), Line Of Sight (+1/2), Invisible to Sight Group (+1/2), Indirect (Any origin, any direction; +3/4) (182 Active Points) [Notes: Because it has Advantages that are only legal on powers that target others (like AOE) self targeting powers (like Flight) cannot be put in this Multipower.] - END=

5u 1) Mental Hands: Telekinesis (21 STR), Affects Porous, Fine Manipulation (52 Active Points) - END=5

5u 2) Squeezing Internal Organs: Killing Attack - Ranged 1d6-1, No Normal Defense ([standard]; +1), Does BODY (+1), Continuous (+1), +5 Increased STUN Multiplier (+1 1/4) (52 Active Points) - END=5

5u 3) Mental Knife: Killing Attack - Ranged 1d6, Armor Piercing (+1/2), Continuous (+1), Penetrating (x2; +1) (52 Active Points) - END=5

Cool!