VPPs and Game World Logic

[Warp9]

A cool thing about Hero is that I can use it to create characters for a large number of different worlds.

 

A cool thing about Variable Point Pools is that they can simulate a character with a very flexible power.

 

So let us imagine that I want to simulate (in Hero terms) a specific character concept from a specific world. This character has a very versatile psychokinetic ability. He can use this ability to accomplish a wide variety of tasks, only limited by his imagination and the raw force he can generate with his psyche.

 

It would seem that using a VPP for this character would be the perfect choice—but there is a problem: the logic of this world doesn’t match the logic of the game in terms of point equivalence.

 

From the “world view” the character is limited by raw PK force, but that force, used in different applications is not always equal value in Hero terms. . . .

 

For example, if the character focuses his PK into an almost infinitely thin blade, then it doesn’t take much raw force to do a HUGE amount of damage. Or the character could also very easily do massive internal damage with very little force by focusing his power inside a target’s brain. However, just hovering in the air requires lifting one’s whole body mass against the force of gravity which would be a significant application of force.

 

By the world logic, the character should be able to easily chop off a target’s head with a nigh infinitely thin psi blade much more easily that it would be for him to levitate, but by game-logic, an attack that would chop off a target’s head would be much more expensive point wise (massive killing attack), than simple levitation (small number of points in flight).

 

So how is the best way to create this character, in Hero terms, as he is in the source material?

 

I’m specifically curious if people have suggestions about setting up something like VPPs as a versatile pool of power. But in ways which do not follow Hero game point logic, and instead represent some other logic (like the pool of raw PK force which I mentioned above).

 

This same issue could apply to other situations:

 

For example, a gadget pool which is limited by tech level and materials. Or an expense account where things of equal $$$ costs are not always equal in Hero point costs.

 

I’m not expecting any simple answers here. And what I’m looking for is, in many ways, almost by definition, outside of Hero rule logic, but I am curious what people think. . . .

[Captain Obvious]

Re: VPPs and Game World Logic

 

You're right. This is outside the scope of the rules. It's just something that is defined loosely and then the main enforcement is the player himself roleplaying to that defined standard.

 

A limitation might be in order on the VPP, but at what level...that's pretty murky. Maybe you could go to Surbrook's Stuff and look at the Mage: the Ascension conversion done by Robert Harrison. His Paradigm limitations are about the best answer I could give here.

[Warp9]

Re: VPPs and Game World Logic

 

You're right. This is outside the scope of the rules. It's just something that is defined loosely and then the main enforcement is the player himself roleplaying to that defined standard.

Still, imagine what would happen if a Player came to me with that PK concept I just described, and asked my how to do that in my game. Given that I've probably already told him that "Hero is the most awesome game, where you can build almost anything you can imagine," it would be nice to be able to give a more specific answer than: "this is outside the scope of the rules."

 

 

A limitation might be in order on the VPP, but at what level...that's pretty murky. Maybe you could go to Surbrook's Stuff and look at the Mage: the Ascension conversion done by Robert Harrison. His Paradigm limitations are about the best answer I could give here.

 

I'll definitely check that stuff out.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: VPPs and Game World Logic

 

Still' date=' imagine what would happen if a Player came to me with that PK concept I just described, and asked my how to do that in my game. Given that I've probably already told him that "Hero is the most awesome game, where you can build almost anything you can imagine," it would be nice to be able to give a more specific answer than: "this is outside the scope of the rules."

 

Yeah, but how many other systems would let him have such an open-ended power?

[Warp9]

Re: VPPs and Game World Logic

 

Yeah' date=' but how many other systems would let him have such an open-ended power?[/quote']

 

 

Yeah, but how many other systems would I describe as "allowing you to build almost anything you can imagine?"

 

Answer: "very few."

 

 

 

And actually there are many "non-effect" based games where you have fairly open ended world-logic abilities which might be hard to transfer over to Hero.

 

TeleKinesis in GURPS 3rd edition works in very much this manner. You have a power and you can do various things with it, limited by your character's level of power, his level of control of that power, your imagination, and (of course) what the GM will allow. For example, you can even use your (GURPS 3rd ed) TK to attack things from the inside, especially if you have some other means of seeing inside said objects.

 

Or for an even better example, if you are familiar with some of the powers in the Amber Diceless RPG, consider how open ended they are. Unfortunately that gets back to being very "loosely defined" as I believe that you touched on earlier.

 

Hero allows for very flexible powers (like VPPs) the only problem is that it also inflicts some game world logic on such powers. It would be nice to find a good way to define very flexible powers while keeping to the logic of the source material.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: VPPs and Game World Logic

 

Hero allows for very flexible powers (like VPPs) the only problem is that it also inflicts some game world logic on such powers. It would be nice to find a good way to define very flexible powers while keeping to the logic of the source material.

 

The more I think about it, the more I believe that the best way to use this concept in game would be to give it a cursory description, list some examples of what the power can do (like in your previous example, list those attacks and how much effect they have, and also note that Flight is limited to a lesser AP cap), put an appropriate Limitation on the VPP using Bob's Paradigm notes as a guide, and refine details in-play in such a way that the player and GM are both happy.

 

Obviously, such a flexible power will require the player to be accommodating on occasion if he really does want the Limitation. Otherwise, an un-Limited VPP will do everything the power as described can do, and if the player won't stick with the parameters he described for his power, he can pay full un-Limited points for it.

 

I guess in a nutshell what I'm saying is that the GM can throw the player a bone in the form of a Limitation if he plays according to the spirit of the Limitation (since in this case there's no hard letter of the law to fall back on), but that even failure to do so doesn't stop Hero from modeling the power.

 

Do you actually have a player that wants to use this power, or is this a mostly theoretic exercise?

[ghost-angel]

Re: VPPs and Game World Logic

 

You really have to ask yourself "What is this raw force"?

 

Is it active points (mechanical aspect for balance)? Or END Cost (Game World aspect for amount of effort required)?

 

I would put something like x5 END Cost (or more) on the Flight to represent the In Game Effort (Force) required to levitate.

 

Active Points are a Game Balance vs other mechanics. But they don't really need to represent other in game aspects like "It requires a TON of force to levitate, so all Flight in this game has to take a x10 END Limitation" but a thin psychokinetic blade is easy, and can even take the 1/2 END Advantage if you'd like.

 

And also - don't forget simple In Game Access - you can say "You can't buy Powers of this type until you've reached a certain point - like 5 points in a Perk, which will be heavily regulated." Kind of thing.

 

Hero imposes no such Game World logic if you don't want it to. You just have to think about how you're going to control your games aspects.

[Sean Waters]

Re: VPPs and Game World Logic

 

What you've got there is a munchkin.

 

We can all come up with devastatingly powerful 'concepts' that the rules will have a job describing in game terms, given a limtied number of points to play with.

 

What I'd do is this - ask huim what his most devastating, powerful ability is, and cost that out. If it is resonable for the campaign, then that is the pool size, and everything else has to eb that or less.

 

'But', he whinges, ' I need hardly any force for my infinitely thing PK blade, so it should hardly use any of my power up at all!'

 

'No,' you respond, 'you do not need a lot of the force potential, but you need an immense amount of concentration to get the force so thin that it can cut, and an immense amount and a lto of power to compress the blade to that thinness.'

 

What he has to 'get' is that, given an infinite number of points, he can do anything, but he has not got an infinite number of points, and if he is given the ability to chop someone's head off with a thought, teh game is not going to be great fun.

 

SO, if he can't do everything he thinks he ought to be able to do, that can be explained in terms of his concept - in the game universe it doesn't work quite how he thinks.

 

Alternatively just give him quad penetrating 1 pip indirect invisible effect killing attack. Doesn't cost that much, and can easily kill someone in less than a minute at almost no risk to him. Sounds powerful, but it is rubbish when it comes to an average Hero combat.

 

I could suggest a new power pool mechanism, but it would not be Hero.

 

I really wish the back of the book read 'The Hero System provides you with unfettered flexibility, allowing you to exercise your own creativity without hinderance BUT DON'T TELL YOUR PLAYERS THAT.' That would save so much trouble,

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: VPPs and Game World Logic

 

You can always adjust the costs of powers to fit the nature of the game world you're creating. If a 4d6 HKA psychokinetic blade is equivalent to 6" of psychokinetic levitation, then you can say that each 1" of Flight costs 10 points in this game. (Or you could make the each d6 of HKA cost 3 points, but I wouldn't recommend that.)

 

Alternatively, you could say that this is an added charge based on the particular power source (in this case psychokinetics). He could take a limitation on his VPP control cost like "Power costs are adjusted to reflect equivalent psychokinetic force". So that his particular Flight is more expensive, but a non-PK guy with a jet pack or wings, pays the normal price.

 

There is plenty of precedent for adjusting costs based on the nature of the campaign world.

[Warp9]

Re: VPPs and Game World Logic

 

The more I think about it, the more I believe that the best way to use this concept in game would be to give it a cursory description, list some examples of what the power can do (like in your previous example, list those attacks and how much effect they have, and also note that Flight is limited to a lesser AP cap), put an appropriate Limitation on the VPP using Bob's Paradigm notes as a guide, and refine details in-play in such a way that the player and GM are both happy.

 

Obviously, such a flexible power will require the player to be accommodating on occasion if he really does want the Limitation. Otherwise, an un-Limited VPP will do everything the power as described can do, and if the player won't stick with the parameters he described for his power, he can pay full un-Limited points for it.

 

I guess in a nutshell what I'm saying is that the GM can throw the player a bone in the form of a Limitation if he plays according to the spirit of the Limitation (since in this case there's no hard letter of the law to fall back on), but that even failure to do so doesn't stop Hero from modeling the power.

 

Do you actually have a player that wants to use this power, or is this a mostly theoretic exercise?

 

I do not actually have a player who wants this power. However, I have had a number of instances where I've had a VERY specific idea about an open ended ability that a character would have, and I mean very specific in game world terms, but when I try to express this ability in VPP terms I run into the problem of being forced into Hero Game logic.

 

BTW I'm having a bit of trouble finding the M:TA stuff on Surbrook's site---I must not be looking in the right place. Where should I be looking?

[Warp9]

Re: VPPs and Game World Logic

 

You really have to ask yourself "What is this raw force"?

 

Is it active points (mechanical aspect for balance)? Or END Cost (Game World aspect for amount of effort required)?

 

I would put something like x5 END Cost (or more) on the Flight to represent the In Game Effort (Force) required to levitate.

 

Active Points are a Game Balance vs other mechanics. But they don't really need to represent other in game aspects like "It requires a TON of force to levitate, so all Flight in this game has to take a x10 END Limitation" but a thin psychokinetic blade is easy, and can even take the 1/2 END Advantage if you'd like.

Off hand, I'd be inclined to equate the max force with active points.

 

I'll admit that the following is somewhat subjective, but IMO the real difference is between max power and END can be seen in sprinter vs marathon runner. The sprinter has more max active points, but the distance runner can run for less END.

 

The distance runner just doesn't have the power to go as fast as the sprinter, and it is not a matter of END. And if we are describing the limitations of this PK ability, I'd tend to think in the same terms of Power vs End. It could very possibly simply require more power to levitate than the person with the PK has.

 

 

 

 

And also - don't forget simple In Game Access - you can say "You can't buy Powers of this type until you've reached a certain point - like 5 points in a Perk, which will be heavily regulated." Kind of thing.

 

Hero imposes no such Game World logic if you don't want it to. You just have to think about how you're going to control your games aspects.

The above statement is a good point, although at some point along these lines we could just begin implementing custom costs for different powers.

[Spidey88]

Re: VPPs and Game World Logic

 

I could think of this from another angle:

 

You've got some experience with GURPS, it seems. That being said, HERO doesn't have as obvious a split between psychic "power" and psychic "skill" - both can be represented somewhat by the VPP itself (though a VPP can be created with or without the need for a skill roll).

 

Obviously, creating a small but incredibly sharp PK blade is a much smaller effect than using the same PK abilities to fly. However, using that power to create a near-monomolecular blade would likely take exponentially more focus and control than the relatively brute-force approach of flinging yourself around. You could easily rationalize that creating a more powerful blade (ie. one that costs more points than you could throw into flight) is simply beyond your willpower/ability to concentrate. Using this sort of rationalization, you could say that you could lift extremely heavy objects, as long as you weren't doing anything complex with them. You don't need to lock onto every single molecule and hold them under rigid and precise control, just give that mass over yonder a rough shove.

 

I'd say there's potentially a lot more to the equation than "raw force," as you put it. If you approach the issue as a tradeoff between power and control, a VPP should work decently well as-is, without any wacky adjustments or complicated power constructs.

 

My two cents.

[Warp9]

Re: VPPs and Game World Logic

 

What you've got there is a munchkin.

 

We can all come up with devastatingly powerful 'concepts' that the rules will have a job describing in game terms, given a limtied number of points to play with.

 

What I'd do is this - ask huim what his most devastating, powerful ability is, and cost that out. If it is resonable for the campaign, then that is the pool size, and everything else has to eb that or less.

 

 

'But', he whinges, ' I need hardly any force for my infinitely thing PK blade, so it should hardly use any of my power up at all!'

 

'No,' you respond, 'you do not need a lot of the force potential, but you need an immense amount of concentration to get the force so thin that it can cut, and an immense amount and a lto of power to compress the blade to that thinness.'

My problem is that we are back to "world logic" here. But what if one doesn't visualize the PK as working so that it "takes a lot of power to compress the blade to that thinness" ?

 

One might visualize Power and Precision as being two very separate things, as they are in GURPS 3rd edition Psionics (you have raw power and a skill level which represents control of that power).

 

Sure I could, as GM, say that I don't like that concept, and simply refuse the world logic behind this character---problem solved!

 

---but what if I do like the world logic?

[Warp9]

Re: VPPs and Game World Logic

 

You can always adjust the costs of powers to fit the nature of the game world you're creating. If a 4d6 HKA psychokinetic blade is equivalent to 6" of psychokinetic levitation, then you can say that each 1" of Flight costs 10 points in this game. (Or you could make the each d6 of HKA cost 3 points, but I wouldn't recommend that.)

 

Alternatively, you could say that this is an added charge based on the particular power source (in this case psychokinetics). He could take a limitation on his VPP control cost like "Power costs are adjusted to reflect equivalent psychokinetic force". So that his particular Flight is more expensive, but a non-PK guy with a jet pack or wings, pays the normal price.

 

There is plenty of precedent for adjusting costs based on the nature of the campaign world.

That is very much along the lines of what I was thinking so far.

 

I like the idea of modified power costs, although the problem is that there is some overhead to setting that up---still, that is the way I'd tend to go.

[archermoo]

Re: VPPs and Game World Logic

 

My problem is that we are back to "world logic" here. But what if one doesn't visualize the PK as working so that it "takes a lot of power to compress the blade to that thinness" ?

 

One might visualize Power and Precision as being two very separate things, as they are in GURPS 3rd edition Psionics (you have raw power and a skill level which represents control of that power).

 

Sure I could, as GM, say that I don't like that concept, and simply refuse the world logic behind this character---problem solved!

 

---but what if I do like the world logic?

 

You just need to determine what if any game mechanic represents "raw power". If there isn't one, you will need to determine on a case by case basis what powers/power levels fall within the character's capabilities.

 

It sounds like AP isn't what you are looking for, since as you pointed out cutting someone's head off is more AP than floating is, but requires more "raw power" to do. Give them a VPP, and discuss with them what powers and power levels are appropriate to the amount of "raw power" they have at their disposal. Make the VPP large enough to let them build the most expensive of them (not necessarily the most "powerful"), and go from there. They just can't use powers out of the VPP that use more "raw power" than they have access to, even if they have the points in the VPP to do so. You'd probably have to come up with a custom limitation on the control cost for that.

[Warp9]

Re: VPPs and Game World Logic

 

I could think of this from another angle:

 

You've got some experience with GURPS, it seems. That being said, HERO doesn't have as obvious a split between psychic "power" and psychic "skill" - both can be represented somewhat by the VPP itself (though a VPP can be created with or without the need for a skill roll).

 

Obviously, creating a small but incredibly sharp PK blade is a much smaller effect than using the same PK abilities to fly. However, using that power to create a near-monomolecular blade would likely take exponentially more focus and control than the relatively brute-force approach of flinging yourself around. You could easily rationalize that creating a more powerful blade (ie. one that costs more points than you could throw into flight) is simply beyond your willpower/ability to concentrate. Using this sort of rationalization, you could say that you could lift extremely heavy objects, as long as you weren't doing anything complex with them. You don't need to lock onto every single molecule and hold them under rigid and precise control, just give that mass over yonder a rough shove.

 

I'd say there's potentially a lot more to the equation than "raw force," as you put it. If you approach the issue as a tradeoff between power and control, a VPP should work decently well as-is, without any wacky adjustments or complicated power constructs.

 

My two cents.

That would definitely be one way to approach the problem. . . .

But, as I said above, that gets back to World Logic.

 

And it makes perfect sense if there is a trade off between power and control. But, if that is not how the source material describes the funtion of the power (if there is no real trade off between power and control), then we have a problem.

 

As you point out: in GURPS 3rd edition psionics, power and control are both separate, I'd like to explore the question as to what happens if we try to stay true to such a vision of the world (or more generally, other visions of abilities which may not fit into Hero game logic).

[Warp9]

Re: VPPs and Game World Logic

 

You just need to determine what if any game mechanic represents "raw power". If there isn't one, you will need to determine on a case by case basis what powers/power levels fall within the character's capabilities. It sounds like AP isn't what you are looking for, since as you pointed out cutting someone's head off is more AP than floating is, but requires more "raw power" to do. Give them a VPP, and discuss with them what powers and power levels are appropriate to the amount of "raw power" they have at their disposal. Make the VPP large enough to let them build the most expensive of them (not necessarily the most "powerful"), and go from there. They just can't use powers out of the VPP that use more "raw power" than they have access to, even if they have the points in the VPP to do so. You'd probably have to come up with a custom limitation on the control cost for that.

In some ways this is close to the custom cost concept (which I faver), but there are subtle differences.

 

This approach would be more in line with keeping the standard Hero rules, and costs, while simply using custom limitations to keep the character's power in line. Interesting.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: VPPs and Game World Logic

 

I do not actually have a player who wants this power. However, I have had a number of instances where I've had a VERY specific idea about an open ended ability that a character would have, and I mean very specific in game world terms, but when I try to express this ability in VPP terms I run into the problem of being forced into Hero Game logic.

 

BTW I'm having a bit of trouble finding the M:TA stuff on Surbrook's site---I must not be looking in the right place. Where should I be looking?

 

http://surbrook.devermore.net/whitewolf/WODmage.html

[ghost-angel]

Re: VPPs and Game World Logic

 

Look at it from a different angle..

 

AP = Potential or Capability.

 

I don't understand why AP would equal how much power a Character In Game can throw around. Consider if they have low END, but a high AP Power, now they can't use that Power because they don't have the END to use it (unless they burn STUN). But a high END Person can - seems to me that END is equal to Power.

 

Take your Long Distance Runner vs Sprinter. First - note that they would use different END Rules, one short term (a 100 Yard Dash would take place at the Phase Level) and one longer term (a 10 Mile Marathon would most certainly use Long Term END).

 

Second the Sprinter may in fact have a large amount of END to run at fast burst speeds; he certainly can't keep up his Speed in a long term situation - to me that might even be modeled as Inches Running; x2 END.

 

Raw Capability (lots of Powers with high AP) means nothing if you can't power them for long.

 

There are a number of other Limitations we can use to represent difficulty in doing something. Increase END. Requires Skill Roll. Side Effect. Activation Roll. Extra Time.

 

All of those can use "it's harder" as SFX.

 

The AP really isn't a great measure of Easier/Harder beyond higher AP requires more END, which can be seen as "harder" or at least, more taxing.

 

Take the conjuration spells in Fantasy Hero Grimoire I. It makes a note that while a Summon Monster spell can summon a more dangerous and powerful creature, the Summon Imp Spell is considered not only more powerful but more dangerous due to the difficulties in dealing with Demons In Game; even while it summons a lower point cost creature.

 

It seems you're trying to use Mechanics (or your player is) to justify what could simply be a lot of In Game roleplaying and or properly modeled Powers.

[OddHat]

Re: VPPs and Game World Logic

 

I'd treat this as -1/4 "Limited Class of Powers Available: Pre Approved Psychokinetic Abilities with Limited Raw Power". Then I'd discuss what I felt Raw Power meant with the player, and write up a list of sample powers. "You can have no more than STR 10 TK, but a 2d6KA NND Does Body defined as reaching into his brain is fine". No different than the limits on a magic system as you create a fantasy world. Maybe I'd go to -1/2 on if I felt the list was limited enough.

[incrdbil]

Re: VPPs and Game World Logic

 

 

So how is the best way to create this character, in Hero terms, as he is in the source material?

 

 

You give him an insanely high ampount of points, and despair as game balance goes down the tube-unless the game is filed with characters of similar powers, and very amazing defenses that shrug off this sort of thing.

 

Really--any game system has to have a point where just because you could make it doesnt mean you should let a player make it.

 

You can rationalize so many things with a lot of common comic book powers. A mind controlling destroy the word supervillain should have wiped out the DC earth long ago, just by having Supes, Green Lantern, or a host of other heroes fly as fast as they can over every major population center.

 

there a all sorts of good reasons not to do this, genre, game balance, and you can always find a way to ratioonalize them. There's already good advoice towards that through the thread, won't repeat it. Sean Waters was spot on.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: VPPs and Game World Logic

 

I don't think I have ever seen a character built with ALL their powers within a single VPP or Multipower. A secondary suite of passive abilities always accompanies the framework.

 

The issue described with TK regarding powerfull flight vs. a razor-thin TK blade could easily be handled by limiting the VPP to not include self targeting powers (Flight, Force Field, Invisibility etc..). The character could still buy those abilities but only outside the primary VPP (this could be a smaller secondary framework). If the character wants to use the VPP for defense they have to use something like Force Wall or Images instead. This also helps explain the most common reaction-less sfx's of most TK abilities.

 

re: razor-thin TK blade

I don't think this sfx demands a huge amount of damage. Rather, it's the perfect place for multiple levels of AP, Penetrating and/or NND which won't need many DC's to be effective. Add IPE and AOE 1 hex accurate and you have pretty deadly 1d6 RKA at =60 active points.

[ghost-angel]

Re: VPPs and Game World Logic

 

Hyper-Man has a point...

 

what exactly is meant bu "huge amounts of damage"?

 

I regularly see Champions characters with 60AP in Offensive, buy only 20AP in Movement

Powers.

 

Is this "huge amounts" compared to a Normal? then we might be talking 3D6KA or so - only 45AP. That same AP in Flight is a lot of inches. 20" x4 Non Combat, not slow by any means.

 

Is it "Harder" to get Flight because the AP Restriction on Movement is lower (you can get at best 10AP or 5" of Flight; compared to 60AP in a KA or 4D6.

 

That sounds like it's "harder" to achieve flight that it is a killing blade.

 

Perhaps what is called for is not Flight to cost more comparitely, but to have different limits, requirements and mandatory Limitations.

 

Again with Hyper-Man's ideas ... VPPs are "Attack Powers Only" or as he suggested "Non Self Affecting Powers"

 

Everything else must be bought either strait - now your Power is limited by Character Points.

 

Sometimes when you're stuck on one idea of how a Character is put together (everything must go in the VPP or EC, or strait) you will run into limitations on how well that concept plays out and is built.

[Warp9]

Re: VPPs and Game World Logic

 

Look at it from a different angle..

 

AP = Potential or Capability.

 

I don't understand why AP would equal how much power a Character In Game can throw around. Consider if they have low END, but a high AP Power, now they can't use that Power because they don't have the END to use it (unless they burn STUN). But a high END Person can - seems to me that END is equal to Power.

In Physics terms, work is a measure of the net impact you can have on the world, without consideration of time.

 

Climbing to the top of a mountain represents Work (or Energy).

 

Power is Work / Time. You can have a large amount of power by doing a moderate amount of work over a very small amount of time.

 

Now a character with 10" Flight, and a large amount of END, may fly to the top of a mountain, but again the net travel distance is not a measure of power. Power represents the ability to go from 0 mph to 30 mph in 0.1 seconds, but that doesn't have any bearing on how long you can keep going.

 

I'd compare raw power to active points, which is the maximum amount of raw energy you have available at a given instant. Net impact on the world over some undefined period of time is a different matter, but that isn't really a matter of raw power.

 

 

 

 

Take your Long Distance Runner vs Sprinter. First - note that they would use different END Rules, one short term (a 100 Yard Dash would take place at the Phase Level) and one longer term (a 10 Mile Marathon would most certainly use Long Term END).

 

Second the Sprinter may in fact have a large amount of END to run at fast burst speeds; he certainly can't keep up his Speed in a long term situation - to me that might even be modeled as Inches Running; x2 END.

The long distance guy has more total energy output in the long term, but the sprinter has more power.

 

Unless you just assume that the sprinter has a higher SPD (which I guess is doable), then you have the assume that the sprinter has more APs in running than the distance guy.

 

Raw Capability (lots of Powers with high AP) means nothing if you can't power them for long.

Not so: the Death Star only needs to fire once!

 

 

There are a number of other Limitations we can use to represent difficulty in doing something. Increase END. Requires Skill Roll. Side Effect. Activation Roll. Extra Time.

 

All of those can use "it's harder" as SFX.

 

The AP really isn't a great measure of Easier/Harder beyond higher AP requires more END, which can be seen as "harder" or at least, more taxing.

I agree that it is some what ambigious where the line is between "it's hard to do because I'm at the limit of what my power can do" and "it's hard to do because this action is simply more draining."

 

What you're suggesting could be very useful in some cases.

 

But I'm not really sure the example of the Telekinetic it is a simple matter of strain on the character's part. In the example, Raw Force represents what the character can and can't do. Perhaps another Telekinetic character, with similar abilities (but a smaller pool), may be too weak to fly at all, but he can still do massive damage.

 

 

 

It seems you're trying to use Mechanics (or your player is) to justify what could simply be a lot of In Game roleplaying and or properly modeled Powers.

That is possible.

[Warp9]

Re: VPPs and Game World Logic

 

http://surbrook.devermore.net/whitewolf/WODmage.html

 

Thanks!