Bag of Holding...How Would You Do It?

[HalloweenKnight]

I ran out of time and money when Fantasy Hero 5th Ed. hit the shelves, so if this is already in there I apologize.

 

In some "fantasy" settings, adventurers can sometimes buy a "Bag of Holding" - just a relatively harmless little draw-string leather sack with a "minor" magical enchantment on it that allows the bag to hold way more than its physical volume would normally limit. In other rules systems, this translated into "pay X gold for the Bag of Holding, increase your inventory capacity by +N items". Simple enough.

 

So how would it work in the HERO System? I ask this not so much for Fantasy HERO but for Champions as well (plenty of magic-using superheroes could certainly use one). I've come up with two possibilities already:

 

1) Extra-Dimensional Movement (to the Bag's "pocket dimension" of storage), Usable As Attack

 

2) Transform: Major (target into "stored" target), Cumulative

 

What else is possible?

 

From what I know and remember about Bags of Holding, nothing "living" could be stored in them (there was no air inside the bag, living creatures would suffocate)...but in a fantasy setting, the term "living thing" was really skewed. Obviously, small creatures like kittens and imps and dragon eggs were out of the question. But then there were "non-living" things like re-animated corpse parts and "intelligent" weapons with spirits bound to them and genies in bottles...but there's got to be a common ground somewhere, right?! And just how "safe" were stored items, anyway, if, say, the bag was jostled or thrown or trampled over by a war-elephant?

 

So many questions for so simple a thing. *sigh*

[Mike W]

Re: Bag of Holding...How Would You Do It?

 

I would think either Extra Dimensional Movement, Usable as an Attack or possibly Shrinking with the same advantage. Extra Dimensional Movement would probably be more appropriate though as a certain game by WOTC, which shall remain nameless here, specifically talks about a Bag of Holding being an extra dimensional space and the bad consequences of taking it into another extra dimensional space.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Bag of Holding...How Would You Do It?

 

Well, one simple (possibly over-simple) way of doing it would be something like:

 

+10 STR, only for carrying contents of Bag of Holding, 0 END (+1/2), IAF Bag (-1/2), Bag may only contain items whose total weight is less than or equal to the maximum lift capacity of the Strength bonus bestowed by the bag (-0)

 

...and the fact the things stored in the bag are larger than would normally fit is just the special effect of the power...

[JmOz]

Re: Bag of Holding...How Would You Do It?

 

Well, one simple (possibly over-simple) way of doing it would be something like:

 

+10 STR, only for carrying contents of Bag of Holding, 0 END (+1/2), IAF Bag (-1/2), Bag may only contain items whose total weight is less than or equal to the maximum lift capacity of the Strength bonus bestowed by the bag (-0)

 

...and the fact the things stored in the bag are larger than would normally fit is just the special effect of the power...

 

The good Dr beat me to it (Except I would have said Str 15, + Invisible Power Effect)

 

HOwever Shinking used as an attack is an option as well

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Bag of Holding...How Would You Do It?

 

From an older thread on the same subject. Note that the total cost listed is for the bag built as a vehicle. The owning character would only need to pay 1/5th of that per the vehicle rules.

 

Why not use the vehicle rules?

 

Bag of Holding

Val Char Cost Roll Notes

20 STR 10 13- Lift 400.0kg; 4d6 [2]

0 DEX -30 9- OCV: 0/DCV: 0

 

10 BODY 0 11-

 

0 SPD -10 Phases: (none)

 

 

Total Characteristic Cost: -44

 

Movement:

 

Cost Powers END

120 It's Just a Bag!: Shrinking (0.0314 m tall, 0.0004 kg mass, -12 PER Rolls to perceive character, +12 DCV, takes +18" KB), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Persistent (+1/2) (120 Active Points)

 

Total Powers & Skill Cost: 120

Total Cost: 76

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Bag of Holding...How Would You Do It?

 

Physical Limitation: If an extra-dimensional space (another open Bag of Holding, portable hole, etc.) is placed inside the Bag of Holding, the whole thing explodes in a giant flash of anti-matter and unpossible physics. The goggles will do nothing!

[ghost-angel]

Re: Bag of Holding...How Would You Do It?

 

Enchanted Items has a bag of holding (last item in the book actually).

 

Two powers are involved:

EDM; UAA

Stretching; Transdimensional (how else will you reach in and get stuff)

 

The fact that you can't put a bag inside a bag is not a Limitation, merely a Setting Rule - things go boom. Or at worse a -0 Limitation on everything.

[Rapier]

Re: Bag of Holding...How Would You Do It?

 

Bags and BackPacks are like Spoons. To build them with points get to costs way out of proportion to the utility. The main point of a holding device (eg bag or backpack) is that they allow you to carry things without using your hands.

 

You could call it simply Extra Limbs (Only to Carry), Extra STR (Only to Carry) with an OAF. The rest (eg the transdimensional aspect) is simply SFX.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Bag of Holding...How Would You Do It?

 

Bags and BackPacks are like Spoons. To build them with points get to costs way out of proportion to the utility. The main point of a holding device (eg bag or backpack) is that they allow you to carry things without using your hands.

 

You could call it simply Extra Limbs (Only to Carry), Extra STR (Only to Carry) with an OAF. The rest (eg the transdimensional aspect) is simply SFX.

 

The only, and best, argument for using EDM instead of any form of STR construct is that with EDM the objects literally go somewhere else.

 

In the case of the build I proposed, the bag/backpack is the SFX for a small extra-dimensional space where stuff is. Technically, the E-D Space has no weight limit beyond being able to only put in 100kg at a time (the limit of EDM).

 

It nicely circumvents any concept of how much/how. Your construct for example is susceptible to Entangle.

STR builds become subject to STR Drains.

 

Both of which are fairly common curses and spell in a Fantasy style game. (sapping the warrior of his great strength, a Spell of Holding). EDM has none of those drawbacks.

 

And the weight limit is what the GM says it is. And completely independent of the character (a +5 STR can mean going from 100kg -> 200kg or from 400kg -> 800kg. It's not a constant variable of lifting capacity).

 

remember, for STR the maximum number listed is the "pick it up and stagger a few steps then I put it down" variety. A STR20 character cannot walk around with 400kg worth of stuff.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Bag of Holding...How Would You Do It?

 

And the weight limit is what the GM says it is. And completely independent of the character (a +5 STR can mean going from 100kg -> 200kg or from 400kg -> 800kg. It's not a constant variable of lifting capacity).

And that little issue is why when I made my suggestion, I specifically stated:

 

Bag may only contain items whose total weight is less than or equal to the maximum lift capacity of the Strength bonus bestowed by the bag (-0)

 

[Rapier]

Re: Bag of Holding...How Would You Do It?

 

The only, and best, argument for using EDM instead of any form of STR construct is that with EDM the objects literally go somewhere else.

 

In the case of the build I proposed, the bag/backpack is the SFX for a small extra-dimensional space where stuff is. Technically, the E-D Space has no weight limit beyond being able to only put in 100kg at a time (the limit of EDM).

 

It nicely circumvents any concept of how much/how. Your construct for example is susceptible to Entangle.

STR builds become subject to STR Drains.

 

Both of which are fairly common curses and spell in a Fantasy style game. (sapping the warrior of his great strength, a Spell of Holding). EDM has none of those drawbacks.

 

And the weight limit is what the GM says it is. And completely independent of the character (a +5 STR can mean going from 100kg -> 200kg or from 400kg -> 800kg. It's not a constant variable of lifting capacity).

 

remember, for STR the maximum number listed is the "pick it up and stagger a few steps then I put it down" variety. A STR20 character cannot walk around with 400kg worth of stuff.

 

While I can understand what you are saying and agree with you, I would not allow someone to Drain the STR from a backpack or bag. I would just look at them and say "you want to do what?" If they mentioned that the bag o' holding was built using +x STR, I would thwap them soundly with a stinky makarel and tell them to quit metagaming.

 

Using EDM seems kind of expensive, but of course once you tack on a -1 OAF and the rest, I guess it does bring the cost down to a reasonable amount.

 

Shrug.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Bag of Holding...How Would You Do It?

 

While I can understand what you are saying and agree with you, I would not allow someone to Drain the STR from a backpack or bag. I would just look at them and say "you want to do what?" If they mentioned that the bag o' holding was built using +x STR, I would thwap them soundly with a stinky makarel and tell them to quit metagaming.

 

Using EDM seems kind of expensive, but of course once you tack on a -1 OAF and the rest, I guess it does bring the cost down to a reasonable amount.

 

Shrug.

 

Most Magic Items aren't paid for with points.

 

Personally - I just find the EDM, UAA simply much more graceful.

[SteveZilla]

Re: Bag of Holding...How Would You Do It?

 

Why would you need UAA on the EDM to make a BoH?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Bag of Holding...How Would You Do It?

 

Why would you need UAA on the EDM to make a BoH?

 

So you can put things in it. EDM is a Self Only Power.

[HalloweenKnight]

Re: Bag of Holding...How Would You Do It?

 

Many good answers, but none suggest the use of Transform, which I personally find to be the best all-around:

 

Bag of Holding (Active Cost 30 Points, Real Cost 11 Points)

1d6 MAJOR Transform (Target object into object "stored" in unique pocket dimension, reversed when storer retrieves from Bag); Penetrating [for use against "Unbreakable" Foci which would otherwise resist the Transform] (+1/2); Reduced Endurance (0 END) (+1/2); No Range (-1/2); Limited Target(s) [only vs "unliving", non-sentient targets that fit through Bag's opening] (-1/4); OAF (Leather bag), Personal, Unbreakable (-1)

Note that Transform is already "Cumulative". This build answers almost all questions about potential targets, their "pocket dimension" destination, their pre-Transformed "weight" as defined by the target's BODY (anything that fits through the Bag's opening is viable, higher-BODY objects just take longer to stuff in if they do fit and some objects won't fit at all), is usable as part of a larger framework (ie Multipower) if desired and doesn't seem unbalancing.

 

But just because it looks good and fair to me doesn't make it "legal". I still don't know what the official Fantasy HERO build is (if there is one) and further input is greatly appreciated.

[Talon]

Re: Bag of Holding...How Would You Do It?

 

Often I wouldn't bother; I would just list the effects of the bag and not worry about points.

 

Assuming I did want to build the bag with points, I would ideally want a method which provided an appropriate scale. By that I mean that a bag with a larger capacity should cost more than a bag with a smaller capacity.

[SteveZilla]

Re: Bag of Holding...How Would You Do It?

 

Many good answers, but none suggest the use of Transform, which I personally find to be the best all-around:

 

 

Bag of Holding (Active Cost 30 Points, Real Cost 11 Points)

1d6 MAJOR Transform (Target object into object "stored" in unique pocket dimension, reversed when storer retrieves from Bag); Penetrating [for use against "Unbreakable" Foci which would otherwise resist the Transform] (+1/2); Reduced Endurance (0 END) (+1/2); No Range (-1/2); Limited Target(s) [only vs "unliving", non-sentient targets that fit through Bag's opening] (-1/4); OAF (Leather bag), Personal, Unbreakable (-1)

Note that Transform is already "Cumulative". This build answers almost all questions about potential targets, their "pocket dimension" destination, their pre-Transformed "weight" as defined by the target's BODY (anything that fits through the Bag's opening is viable, higher-BODY objects just take longer to stuff in if they do fit and some objects won't fit at all), is usable as part of a larger framework (ie Multipower) if desired and doesn't seem unbalancing.

 

But just because it looks good and fair to me doesn't make it "legal". I still don't know what the official Fantasy HERO build is (if there is one) and further input is greatly appreciated.

 

Why should it take different times to stuff in two identically sized and shaped swords, one made of Adamantite and a mock-up made of balsa wood? Size is not the only way an object can have more or less Body.

[Rapier]

Re: Bag of Holding...How Would You Do It?

 

Often I wouldn't bother; I would just list the effects of the bag and not worry about points.

 

Assuming I did want to build the bag with points, I would ideally want a method which provided an appropriate scale. By that I mean that a bag with a larger capacity should cost more than a bag with a smaller capacity.

 

That is, of course, the real answer. If no one is tracking the points, and everyone knows how it works and what it does, who cares how it is built?

 

The only reason I was looking into build concepts was for the exercise. I freely hand out bandages (1 Resource Point per use), flashlights, cell phones and other little bits of fun without much (and sometimes any) Resource Point cost. Did I build a flashlight to figure out how many points it's worth? Nope, just decided 2 was about right.

[Talon]

Re: Bag of Holding...How Would You Do It?

 

How I would really really build it is fairly house-ruley...I have somewhere a writeup (don't recall where I got it) for a "Space" power, which effectively creates space (for vehicles, "distance distortion" effects, and extra-dimensional spaces). The sizes start out pretty small, so doing a bag of holding becomes a straightforward exercise.

 

Outside that, I would probably look at Shrinking with an overall mass/bulk limitation (i.e., it can only shrink so much at a time, regardless of how many individual items are involved).

[SteveZilla]

Re: Bag of Holding...How Would You Do It?

 

So you can put things in it. EDM is a Self Only Power.

 

Umm, right! I knew that!

 

Though I'd probably use Usable By One Other instead (like a Gate).

 

But my Preferred Method is below:

 

Bag of Hefty Capacity: 1" Stretching + Transdimensional(Bag-Space; +½), Zero END(+½)(10 Active Points); OAF(BoHC; -1), Cannot Do Damage(-½), No Noncombat Stretching(-¼), Only into Bag-Space(-1), Bag-Space Can Only Hold ____ Kg of Mass(-0), Side Effects(Extra Dimensional Movement: Random Location on Ethereal Plane, x32 Mass + Safe Blind Travel(+¼) on Character and Those Within 5" When Two Bag-Spaces Intersect; -1), Independent(-2)

 

1 Real Point. If this isn't a Heroic Level game, leave off Independent and the Real Cost rises to 2 points. The GM+Player determine what value to write into the blank for Kg Mass.

 

Note that the Side Effects *do not* destroy the bag or deprive the user of it's contents. Being thrown to a random location on a foreign plane (with likely no means to get back when it happens) is bad enough IMO.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Bag of Holding...How Would You Do It?

 

Often I wouldn't bother; I would just list the effects of the bag and not worry about points.

 

Assuming I did want to build the bag with points, I would ideally want a method which provided an appropriate scale. By that I mean that a bag with a larger capacity should cost more than a bag with a smaller capacity.

 

The answer is, of course, two fold.

 

First is initial storage weight - an EDM,UAA bag can only put in items of 100kg or less. To put larger items in you need to use the Mass Adder.

 

That doesn't address overall storage capacity though. So, let's move onto Limitations:

 

Really Big Bag: Stores everything!

Sack: Only 200kg worth of stuff (-1/4)

Bag: Only 100kg worth of stuff (-1/2)

Pouch: Only 50kg worth of stuff (-1)

Pocket: Only 20kg worth of stuff (-2)

 

Mouth opening for object size decreases accordingly as well. Adjust weights to taste.

[CTaylor]

Re: Bag of Holding...How Would You Do It?

 

I build it as a shrinking device: put things in, it shrinks on others.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Bag of Holding...How Would You Do It?

 

I build it as a shrinking device: put things in' date=' it shrinks on others.[/quote']

 

That's exactly what my previous build does. It's a shrinking vehicle with no movement. You put stuff in it, shrink it and carry it with you. The advantage I see it having vs. many of the other proposals is that it actually has a decent chance of surviving incidental damage (like being caught in the AOE of a fireball or something similar).

[archermoo]

Re: Bag of Holding...How Would You Do It?

 

That's exactly what my previous build does. It's a shrinking vehicle with no movement. You put stuff in it' date=' shrink it and carry it with you. The advantage I see it having vs. many of the other proposals is that it actually has a decent chance of surviving incidental damage (like being caught in the AOE of a fireball or something similar).[/quote']

 

Unless of course the others are built as an Indestructible Focus, at which point they will too.

[CTaylor]

Re: Bag of Holding...How Would You Do It?

 

I just built it as a focus, not a vehicle. It has Defense and Body like everything else does except the extremely rare indestructible items in the game - ones I wouldn't allow PCs to make.