Is MultiForm Broken?

[LoneStarChamp]

I am sort of new to the HERO system. Over my years of gameing I have seen it in stores but never really gave it much thought before. Untill a few months ago when I was looking for something to do a good superhero and scifi game. When sitting down taking a look at the system and powers I came to Multiform. From what I can tell even with active point limits and rules of X one can make 16 forms built on the same points as every other player that can shift from each form as a 0 phase action. From what I gather you could make 16 other characters and cover all attacks and defensive bases. Question is am I just reading wrong or can you really do anything you want as is the point of a VPP but not pay the points or is there a flaw I am missing.

[Checkmate]

Re: Is MultiForm Broken?

 

There is no flaw you aren't missing anything. Multiform is just one of those things a GM REALLY has to keep a tight reign on. 4th edition was quite as bad, since the most expensive form had to pay for the Multiform. 5th edition says any form can carry the cost of it, which means you can have Joe Normal be nothing but a 150pt Multiform, and all your powerful form you get for 1/5th the cost.

 

Like a lot of things in HERO respect the stop sign next to the power.

[Doc Samson]

Re: Is MultiForm Broken?

 

Multiform is often UNDERpowered in campaigns with an AP limit. For example, in a 350 pt. campaign with a 60 AP max, your strongest form would be (60x5) 300 pts. Unrestricted, Multiform can of course be broken (350x5 = 1750pts.!). Your GM needs to set some sort of limit.

[pinecone]

Re: Is MultiForm Broken?

 

It's not broken...but it certainly Can be.....

[ghost-angel]

Re: Is MultiForm Broken?

 

There are many examples of the Hero System Rules that can be used to break a game completely. Multiform just has the distinction of being blatantly obvious about it.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Is MultiForm Broken?

 

Also, the reason why (IMO) the cost of Multiform is what it is, and why it relies more on GM oversight to prevent abuse (instead of increasing the cost to prevent abusive constructs), is that if it did increase the cost to curb abuse, then it would be more costly than it's worth for the applications that aren't abusive. (And the same logic also applies for other similarly arguably "broken" Powers like Summon, Extra-Dimensional Movement, and Variable Power Pool.)

 

Personally, I like that. I like that the system tries harder to balance costs for non-abusive applications (and rely on the GM to smack-down abusers), instead of stacking the costs to try and thwart abusers ("punishing" reasonable builds in the process).

[jkwleisemann]

Re: Is MultiForm Broken?

 

As others have said, it certainly *can* be broken. I'm still a little leery of the fact that I let one character in whose main difference between forms was if he had points in a magical Vehicle or not, but... ah well.

 

Personally, I find that the easiest way to nerf the abusive applications of Multiform is simply to modify an (old?) rule about Followers.

 

If the form you're buying at the 1/5 discount is bigger than your original form, you lose the discount.

 

In other words, standard Superheroic game, you get your 1/5 points up to 350 (70 AP base), as many forms as you want (but really, it gets ridiculous after a certain point). Beyond that, 1/1 - so a 400 point form costs 120 points.

 

Now, I *think* that's built into the default, but I could be wrong. At any rate, it does an admirable job of killing the worst offenses.

 

As for characters using Multiform to be a one-man party... I've got a real easy way to keep *that* from getting out of hand.

 

Have a brick and a mentalist attack them at the same time. Generally, the different builds mean they're either splattered, or finding new ways to say "yes master" within 2 phases.

[Doctor Agenda]

Re: Is MultiForm Broken?

 

Yes, I was able to use Multiform to realize one of my dreams--a character who could copy other people's powers without being really weak otherwise, and keep the powers he copied. I just got 64 multiforms and defined them as the base hero plus the powers of the person he was copying. I agree about the 1 for 1 cap after it passes your own points, I kept it to 350. I only went through about six of my potential multiforms over the course of that game and once copied a much more powerful character that ate up two forms: one for the mental powers and one for the physical, I couldn't handle them all together. I thought that was a cool way to handle it and without a structure like multiform I never would have thought of it.

 

On the other hand I tend to run very modest and humble characters so the GM won't regret me having VPPs or big Multiforms. You've got to be careful not to step on other player's toes when you have that kind of versatility. And after that game I sort of got it out of my system and haven't played a similar character since.

[MPT]

Re: Is MultiForm Broken?

 

Yes it can be broken since both Multiform and Followers allow you to create character(s) with a higher points cost than that of other characters.

 

As a GM I ban multiforms/followers where the cost of the forms/followers (characteristics+powers+skills etc.) is greater than the campaign limit minus 1/5 of that limit.

 

So in a 150pt campaign (75 base points + 75 disadvantages) the maximum is 150 - (150/5) = 120pts.

[casualplayer]

Re: Is MultiForm Broken?

 

Multiform is as broken as the player and GM allow it to be.

 

Animal shapeshifters abound in the genre material and, written up in HERO, some innocuous animals can be a ridiculous amount of points. It's best not to get too hung up on points and focus instead on whether Menagerie being able to turn into hundreds of different animals would imbalance the game or stomp on other players' schticks.

 

With old Multiform you used to have silliness like Hulk having to pony up the points for Bruce Banner or Captain Marvel having to support Billy Batson, meaning the superpowered character was built on fewer relative points for the dubious honor of occasionally being able to be dramatically weaker. It also left you with no good in-game way to force a change to the "core" form by Suppressing the Multiform, because the core form wasn't really what anyone had in mind.

 

The only real way to keep Multiform under control is through role playing. The GM has to put the Multiform character in situations where his cheap, burly form is not appropriate or even harmful.

[Checkmate]

Re: Is MultiForm Broken?

 

Multiform is often UNDERpowered in campaigns with an AP limit. For example' date=' in a 350 pt. campaign with a 60 AP max, your strongest form would be (60x5) 300 pts. Unrestricted, Multiform can of course be broken (350x5 = 1750pts.!). Your GM needs to set some sort of limit.[/quote']

I still disagree and can still be the most potentially abuse character, even with this limitation. I can have a 240pt character add a 60pt Multiform and have a 240pt character and a 300pt character. Now, I take that 240pt character and load him up with the non-combat, detective, and science skills and and all the perks. Then I have a 300pt character that can be nothing but pure combat effectiveness.

 

So while limits may help, it's still a power a GM has to watch VERY closely.

[Doc Samson]

Re: Is MultiForm Broken?

 

I still disagree and can still be the most potentially abuse character, even with this limitation. I can have a 240pt character add a 60pt Multiform and have a 240pt character and a 300pt character. Now, I take that 240pt character and load him up with the non-combat, detective, and science skills and and all the perks. Then I have a 300pt character that can be nothing but pure combat effectiveness.

 

So while limits may help, it's still a power a GM has to watch VERY closely.

 

You make alot of sense, but if you play in a group of powergamers like I do, a 350 pt. character is usually going to be stronger than a 300 pt. multiform (with or without skills).

If the base character points in the group is 240 (below standard), then I think a 60 AP cap is too high to be very restrictive anyway.

[Checkmate]

Re: Is MultiForm Broken?

 

Most characters do have less than 50 points in non-combat skills. This would probably make them better than in combat. So let's use examples Multi-Man (MM) Uses a multiform. Combat Monster (CM) is the teams combat specialist, and Skill Lord (SL) is the teams Batman, great at the detective stuff.

 

CM has to spend SOME points in non-combat skills, let's assume the GM wants a character not a collection of points. So let's say CM spends 20 points in non-combat stuff. That makes him 330 points of combat.

 

Now SL has a ton of non-combat skills, he spent 60 points in Wealth, contacts, Perks and just general detective/science stuff. That means his combat effectivness, took a hit, he's only 290pts of combativeness.

 

Now we have MM. He has a 240pt character that needs absolutely NO combat skills what so ever. None. He can spend 240 points and be entirely non-combat. He could buy the vehicles, wealth, contacts and all of the skills to be more effective than SL, and what has he sacraficed for it (remember SL took a hit on his combat side)? Nothing. He still has 300 points of combat effectiveness. So while he'll be 30 points less than CM, he's still a pretty effective combatant, and has just rendered SL useless.

[transmetahuman]

Re: Is MultiForm Broken?

 

Now we have MM. He has a 240pt character that needs absolutely NO combat skills what so ever. None. He can spend 240 points and be entirely non-combat. He could buy the vehicles' date=' wealth, contacts and all of the skills to be more effective than SL, and what has he sacraficed for it (remember SL took a hit on his combat side)? Nothing. He still has 300 points of combat effectiveness. So while he'll be 30 points less than CM, he's still a pretty effective combatant, and has just rendered SL useless.[/quote']Technically, MM shouldn't have access to Wealth, Vehicles, etc. in his combat monster mode - or he should have to buy them for both forms. Doesn't solve the problem, I know, but it's a point worth making.

[jkwleisemann]

Re: Is MultiForm Broken?

 

Actually, I *could* see a logical reason for the build that Checkmate mentioned... the Jekyll/Hyde approach, if Jekyll hadn't been so careful to make sure that Hyde had access to his resources and house.

 

However, as a GM, I'd only allow that with some *serious* limitations. Which, actually, would reduce the point discrepancy further. Just add on a -1 OAF, and they end up cutting the split in half right there.

 

And, unless you're *trying* to gut the others in your team, you have to admit that the 300 point form you can buy with the usual AP limits is still pretty weak. Especially since the only reason your base form is weaker than that one is because it costs 60 to lose 50 points.

 

Buy more than one form... say, 4 forms, and the 60 AP limit rapidly means you can get nothing more than 250 point forms - remember, each doubling you buy means you lose 25 points from your multiforms.

 

So I tend to agree with the folks who feel that the AP limits make multiforms underpowered, unless a concerted effort is made to be nasty about it.

[Cancer]

Re: Is MultiForm Broken?

 

Multiform is as broken as the player and GM allow it to be. ...

 

As someone whose main Champions character is a multiform guy, I think is this the real truth. Of course, this can put a GM and a player in diametric opposition. But if you stay true to your roleplaying, and cooperate, then things will be cool.

[JmOz]

Re: Is MultiForm Broken?

 

Also IMO it is harder to justify some limitations as a MF

[ghost-angel]

Re: Is MultiForm Broken?

 

Multiform is as broken as the player and GM allow it to be.

 

Animal shapeshifters abound in the genre material and, written up in HERO, some innocuous animals can be a ridiculous amount of points. It's best not to get too hung up on points and focus instead on whether Menagerie being able to turn into hundreds of different animals would imbalance the game or stomp on other players' schticks.

 

This outlines why I really actively hate it when GMs just go "you can't have more than X Points in Multiform" - you've prematurely crippled too many ideas with no basis.

 

Sure it works in your game, but who is to say not limiting the points and taking builds on a Case-By-Case basis won't work either?

 

Multiform needs to be watched, but you also need to understand what the Player is trying to do and why and not cripple a concept based on numbers alone. Bad form. Bad GMing.

[Kirby]

Re: Is MultiForm Broken?

 

Multiform is not broken, it is malleable.

 

Think about it.

 

[Checkmate]

Re: Is MultiForm Broken?

 

So I tend to agree with the folks who feel that the AP limits make multiforms underpowered, unless a concerted effort is made to be nasty about it.

Take your favorite character you've created. Take out anything that doesn't help directly in combat. Drop your INT to 8 your COM to 0, take out any skill that doesn't relate to combat. I would dare say that a 300pt Combat Monster would be close if not just as effective as a 350pt character, and by character I mean a character that has an origin and bought skills to reflect that origin. Bought there INT to a reasonable level and didn't skim points on the COM if the concept didn't allow it. Get rid of the "fluff" powers or utility powers. A multiform character wouldn't need them in Combat Monster mode. They could all be jammed into his 240pt alt.

 

Sure he wouldn't have access to his wealth or contacts in Combat Mode, well all it takes is what 1 phase to change to Non-Combat mode.

 

So like I said, while an active point cost MAY help, as a GM, don't count on it.