You really moved me

[Sean Waters]

Long post. Sorry.

 

Here’s an idea I’ve floated before (and has been sunk before) but it may be time to consider it again, in the light of recent discussions and a, perhaps, more structured approach to presentation. Here it is:

 

Treating Stretching as a Movement Power.

 

Cool.

 

So, Stretching would cost 2 points for 1”.

It would have the normal indirect properties that all movement powers have: you can use it to go around stuff.

It would cost END to use.

It would have no turn mode.

It would allow you to do velocity based damage manoeuvres or otherwise add damage. The normal rules apply including having to use the movement in a straight line.

 

Now stretching would then work like any other movement power with a couple of special rules:

• Stretching and contracting both take movement, so you can reach out, grab something, then pull yourself to it, but you count the inches that you stretch to grab AND the inches you move yourself. This means that you cannot move more than ½ your inches in movement in a single combat phase. Similarly if your body remains stationary, and you Stretch to punch someone, you measure the distance to the target, then the distance back again as your total move – retracting after a stretch is an exception to the normal rule that you cannot move after an attack action, so long as the intention is declared before the roll to hit, BUT if you punch someone more than ½ your inches of stretching away, you will not be able to fully retract in that phase. If you are not fully retracted, you can be attacked at any point along your ‘length’.
  
• Anchoring: although stretching allows you to actually move by reaching and grabbing, and pulling yourself over, and allows vertical movement to anything you can reach, you don’t get any special ability to grab onto something, so it is still very difficult to scale a glass fronted skyscraper – buy clinging to cover this if it is what you want.
  
• Although the sfx of stretching would logically include, in many cases, defences and KBR (but see below), the power does not come with those abilities – buy them and link them if you want them.
  
• Although the sfx of stretching would logically include, in many cases, a change of ‘shape’ the power cannot be used to fool anyone into thinking that you are someone or something that you are not, except perhaps fleetingly, as a power trick or, for limited purposes, with an appropriate adder. To actually appear to be like something else, buy, for example, shapeshift.
  
• You can use stretching, like other movement powers, to increase your strength in appropriate situations, as per the rules on page 364, and to brace against KB.
  
• Acceleration and deceleration. If you can do velocity combat manoeuvres with stretching (see below) you do need to concern yourself with acceleration and deceleration, but as stretching has no turn mode, acceleration and deceleration do not limit the distance you can stretch in a phase with combat stretching.
  
• Maintaining a stretch: you are not required to retract, and can maintain a stretch for as long as you can pay END. Even if you are not stretching or retracting in a phase, you still need to pay END if you are stretched.
  
• Non-combat stretching uses the same rules as for other movement powers, although excessive non-combat stretching is probably a bit silly.

Advantages

 

 

No range modifiers + ½

 

Normally attacks made with stretching take a penalty based on range from the hex you start in. With this advantage, ‘no range penalty’ applies to any attacks made with stretching. NB you do not take range penalties if you, for instance, half move 8” toward the target, then punch them from an adjacent hex, BUT if you punch a target that is 8” away, remaining where you are by stretching and retracting (and thus avoiding ending your phase next to them) you would take a range penalty of –2 for that attack, if you did not have this advantage.

 

Useable as a second mode of movement + ¼

 

This advantage can be used to, for instance, allow stretching that can be used to make your legs really long so that you can run at high speed, or turn your hands into huge paddles to swim quickly, stretch your flesh into useable wings or whatever. Swinging also makes a lot of sense as a second mode of movement.

 

Adders

 

 

Pass through small gaps +5

 

Although stretching almost always involves redistribution of body mass, this is not ‘useful’ redistribution in game terms. With this adder, you can use stretching to pass through smaller or narrower gaps than you could otherwise. You can pass body parts though a gap approximately 1/4 of the normal size that you could otherwise. The body has to deform to accomplish this. This means you could get your head through a tube 5cm in diameter, and pass your whole body through a 10cm tube (or less, with a DEX roll or contortionist skill).

 

Pass through tiny gaps +10

 

As above but you can pass through tiny spaces, pretty much anything a glutinous liquid could pass through. This does not make you desolid, however, and you gain no special immunities or defences from being in this semi-liquid state.

 

Density decrease +5

 

You can decrease your density. Your overall mass does not change and nor do your characteristics, but you can appear to be bigger than you actually are by redistributing mass. This may help you, for example, float in water, but you cannot reduce your mass to the point where you float in air (buy flight or gliding for that). If you can actually increase or decrease your size, or increase your mass, buy the appropriate power (growth, shrinking, density increase).

 

Simple shapes +5

 

With this adder you can change your shape to resemble relatively simple geometrical shapes – for example, with this adder, you can take on the shape of a crate, albeit it will usually be obvious that you are not one, unless you are disguised in some way, for instance with shapeshift (so your appearance is also changed), or you are covered with a cloth.

 

Complex shapes +10

 

With this adder you can form complex shapes. For example, with this adder, you can take on the shape of a tree, albeit it will usually be obvious that you are not one, unless you are disguised in some way, for instance with shapeshift, or you are in silhouette.

 

All other adders, advantages and limitations for stretching apply, although you may wish to consider whether ‘does not cross intervening space’ is an appropriate advantage for stretching, or whether it should be allowed only if the character has some sort of teleportation ability. If you do allow it, then you cannot move your body without passing through intervening space (unless, possibly, you have stretching also useable as teleport), but only for attacks.

 

So. There you have it. What do you think?

[Doc Samson]

Re: You really moved me

 

Interesting idea. Stretching already does have some movement-like properties.

 

5ER 221

A character with Stretching can reach out,

Grab a large, solid object (such as a tree, the edge of

a roof or cliff , or the like), and pull himself up to it

(assuming he has the STR to lift himself). Th is typically

requires a Full Phase Action. It only requires a

Half Phase Action if the total of (inches Stretched

+ inches the character pulls himself) is less than or

equal to half his inches of Stretching.

 

I question whether your cost is a bit high. For 2 pts. you can stretch 1", but can only stretch 1/2 your movement in a phase. One could say the actual cost is then 4 pts. for 1". Using the above rule, I could do the same, plus everything else you can do with stretching for 5 pts. per inch. Thoughts?

[Sean Waters]

Re: You really moved me

 

Interesting idea. Stretching already does have some movement-like properties.

 

That is what got me thinking: in fact stretching has almost all the movement properties - velocity damage, movement (although the description is confusing, somewhat - stretching does not improve the character's movement capabilities, but (through grab and pull) can be used for movement, and movement is indirect in exactly the same way stretching is - you can go around stuff.

 

 

 

I question whether your cost is a bit high. For 2 pts. you can stretch 1"' date=' but can only stretch 1/2 your movement in a phase. One could say the actual cost is then 4 pts. for 1". Using the above rule, I could do the same, plus everything else you can do with stretching for 5 pts. per inch. Thoughts?[/quote']

 

You can stretch your full movement in a phase, just not there and back:

 

Say you have 16" of stretching, that would be 32 points.

 

You can punch someone who is 16" away, but you would have to remain stretched until your next phase as you do not have the points to retract. Or you could punch someone 8" away and fully retract, or you could do something in between.

 

To that extent it is more useful, as an attack enhancer, than running: 16" of running would not alow you to attack someone 16" away unless you used a move through or move by, which have their own problems (and which you could also do with stretching), and if you ran up to someone 8" away and punched them, you'd still be standing there until your next phase. Sure your actual move rate is slower, effectively, but you get better combat utility.

 

The way I figured it, running allows no turn mode but only horizontal movement, flight allows vertical movement with a turn mode, and teleport allows you to move without passing through the intervening space, a sort of indirect mvoement, where turn mode is not relevant, and you can move vertically, but you can't add velocity damage. If we were going to treat it as a movement power it had to bring something a bit different to the table: stretching allows (limited) post attack movement, but at the cost of total movement.

 

Anyway, you could buy that 16" of stretching for 32 points, and for another 8, the low, low total of 40 points, you could make it work as swinging, too: best of both worlds!

[Duke Bushido]

Re: You really moved me

 

Forgive the extent of the quote; as always, you've given me a lot to mull over...

 

I'd like to say that I see validity in some of your points, but for my own line of thought, well--

I don't like to see one power replace or recreate another. Generally, a framework or build of some sort to represent using the SFX of that power to effectively "have" the second power.

 

Confusing, yes. Hopefully I can explain as we go:

 

. The normal rules apply including having to use the movement in a straight line.

 

As mentioned by the first responder, there are rules governing using stretching as movement after a fashion. I liken it myself to "climbing" or "climbing across the ground." Climbing is more or less limited to your reach, and stretching increases your reach. So you can drag yourself along. Fair enough.

• You can use stretching, like other movement powers, to increase your strength in appropriate situations, as per the rules on page 364, and to brace against KB.

I've actually never been happy with that-- the whole "growth accelleration" thing. I don't allow it my table any more than the "disadvantage" of not having it with your SFX. There are regular discussions always of "STR is too cheap" and the like because of all the 'gimmes,' but 'velocity damage' of shape-changing powers, to me, fall into that same category. And of course, there's the over-lapping powers thing. If you want additional damage as an SFX of your growth or stretching, then buy HA or HKA or RKA or even extra STR and Link it to the use of the power.

 

That's just 'more right' to me personally. It's also-- and I know, at this point, with all the rules revisions and seeming contradictions, it's in keeping with the "more expensive is right" concept.

 

I feel the same about the KBR. IF you've Clinging, or have even bought KBR with the SFX that you 'grab _something_,; then fine. The anchoring I'd treat as sort of a Power Stunt, requiring a Held Action or an Abort To, and likely require an STR v KB contest. If the Character was already anchored to something, then skip to the STR v KB contest.

 

Maintaining a stretch: you are not required to retract' date=' and can maintain a stretch for as long as you can pay END. Even if you are not stretching or retracting in a phase, you still need to pay END if you are stretched.[/quote']

 

I assume that if you 'remain stretched,' then you don't get the "Stretching velocity" bonus inherent in the current rules should you re-attack the distant character?

 

 

The Range thing:

 

Doesn't stretching already pretty much allow a character to target a distant opponent without moving adjacent to him? No; I'm not being flippant; I'm a bit confused, because these options you're suggesting are hinting that I may not understand the current incarnation of Stretching....

 

Useable as a second mode of movement + ¼

 

This advantage can be used to, for instance, allow stretching that can be used to make your legs really long so that you can run at high speed, or turn your hands into huge paddles to swim quickly, stretch your flesh into useable wings or whatever. Swinging also makes a lot of sense as a second mode of movement.

 

A movement Pool or multipower already provide reasonable rates on a variety of movements. I'd sort of like to see a numbers analysis, if you happen to have one. With an advantage, the more Stetching the person has, the more expensive the movement itself would become. How do you determine the value of the movement power (did I overlook it? ) ?

 

With an actual purchased power, with or without a Framework, you are buying X amount of each movement. It's concise and the price does not vary depending on the amount of some other power a character has.

Adders

 

These interested me, but I _believe_ such things are available through limited Shapeshift already. If not, well-- I don't see an immediate _real_ issue with them, just a feeling of unease

Honestly, at the first level-- small gaps-- I would almost think that the ability depends on the SFX alone, and perhaps a power Stunt or a Skill Roll.

 

In general, I have always regarded the use of adders as "stop sign" or "look again" things, simply because they seem to be more, to me, like paying specifically for your SFX. I can build a cyborg with stretching via mechanical limbs (Bionic Commando, anyone? ) who by default would not be able to pass through holes which his torso would plug. To represent this, I'd think instead to place limitations on Stretching: Limbs only.

Buying an adder to make the character all-over pliable seems to suggest that Stretching should _only_ make a character's limbs stretch, and in no way imply that he could stretch his ear to a speaker or his neck through a locked gate. It would seem to default that he couldn't even use the Stretching to flex himself free from a coil of rope.

 

If default stretching _should_ imply these things, and _not_ having these minor abilities is indeed a Limitation, then the Adders are not really needed.

however, and you gain no special immunities or defences from being in this semi-liquid state.

Density decrease +5

 

I understand completely where you're coming from, but if this is going to be just an "appearance only" thing-- kind of a "scare the cougars" thing, then I'd think it's a gimme or a power stunt. If it's going to be useful, then Shapeshift sort of covers that. It declares that you can change your shape but not your mass.

 

And if it's going to be _this useful:

This may help you, for example, float in water,

 

Buy a limited Swimming, or reduce the END or your default swimming, or treat it as a power stunt for Shapeshift.

 

If you can actually increase or decrease your size' date=' or increase your mass, buy the appropriate power (growth, shrinking, density increase).[/quote']

 

Which, my friend, is kind of how I felt about some the suggestions of 'gimmes' with Stretching.

Simple shapes +5

 

Again, I have always held that simple shapes should be part of the power as a default. Complex shapes are the domain of ShapeShift. My opinion of course.

 

 

although you may wish to consider whether ‘does not cross intervening space’ is an appropriate advantage for stretching' date='[/quote']

 

Again, for raw opinion shopping, I've never found it appropriate for anything. We already had "Indirect." Simply apply it to things not ordinarily considered to be offensive powers. I have done that one for years. I get a lot of that same reaction you might know as "You can Haymaker _that_?" from players who felt that Haymaker was the exclusive domain of punching.

For me, that falls into that whole "why make a new power to represent an old one?" thing.

But to get back on course:

 

or whether it should be allowed only if the character has some sort of teleportation ability. If you do allow it, then you cannot move your body without passing through intervening space (unless, possibly, you have stretching also useable as teleport), but only for attacks.

 

This is what I'm talking about: limiting the gimmes. Obviously we both agree that there should be limits on the gimmes ("no free teleport" in this case); I just place my limits sooner.

So. There you have it. What do you think?

 

 

I think I could more readily accept what you were suggesting if you were to move Stretching _entirely_ into the movement category, and require some other build-- likely Shape Shift-- to simulate all non-movement aspects of Stretching. But given the combat utility of attacking and ending a phase at a distance, you may have to consider what would or what would not qualify in the current mechanics as a move-through/by, and how to handle the over-all pricing.

 

Currently, you're giving the results of a move-by without actually having to move, or take any 'incidental' damage. Even Flight can't give you that

 

I'm so glad to get back here.

 

Thanks, Sean! I've _really, really missed this sort of thing

[Trebuchet]

Re: You really moved me

 

Sean, stop using that awful tiny font and maybe I'll be able to read your proposal.

[schir1964]

Re: You really moved me

 

Sean' date=' stop using that awful tiny font and maybe I'll be able to read your proposal. [/quote']

What tiny font?

 

The font in his original post appears to be the same size as the fonts in your post. At least when viewing it with Firefox.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Sean Waters]

Re: You really moved me

 

Sean' date=' stop using that awful tiny font and maybe I'll be able to read your proposal. [/quote']

 

I think the font 'size' is the same but it is probably Times New Roman as I wrote the original in Word then copied it across. I'll amend the original post

[Sean Waters]

Re: You really moved me

 

Forgive the extent of the quote; as always, you've given me a lot to mull over...

 

I'd like to say that I see validity in some of your points, but for my own line of thought, well--

I don't like to see one power replace or recreate another. Generally, a framework or build of some sort to represent using the SFX of that power to effectively "have" the second power.

 

Confusing, yes. Hopefully I can explain as we go:

 

Thank you for taking the time.

 

I agree that there is little point in trying to simply replace or recreate a power, but stretching does have an awful lot of movement like effects, and involves, well movement sfx. Stretching even has 'noncombat stretching'. it is a movement power in all but name. Moreover, stretching is expensive at present. Look at the templates for larger than normal creatures, and after a few iterations, the single bigegst cost is that for stretching to simulate their extra reach. The cost/utility don't seem to balance well.

 

 

 

As mentioned by the first responder' date=' there are rules governing using stretching as movement after a fashion. I liken it myself to "climbing" or "climbing across the ground." Climbing is more or less limited to your reach, and stretching increases your reach. So you can drag yourself along. Fair enough.[/quote']

 

Always confused me - can't use stretching as movement, but can move with stretching. Hmm.

 

 

I've actually never been happy with that-- the whole "growth accelleration" thing. I don't allow it my table any more than the "disadvantage" of not having it with your SFX. There are regular discussions always of "STR is too cheap" and the like because of all the 'gimmes,' but 'velocity damage' of shape-changing powers, to me, fall into that same category. And of course, there's the over-lapping powers thing. If you want additional damage as an SFX of your growth or stretching, then buy HA or HKA or RKA or even extra STR and Link it to the use of the power.

 

That's just 'more right' to me personally. It's also-- and I know, at this point, with all the rules revisions and seeming contradictions, it's in keeping with the "more expensive is right" concept.

 

I feel the same about the KBR. IF you've Clinging, or have even bought KBR with the SFX that you 'grab _something_,; then fine. The anchoring I'd treat as sort of a Power Stunt, requiring a Held Action or an Abort To, and likely require an STR v KB contest. If the Character was already anchored to something, then skip to the STR v KB contest.

 

I think the reason it is included is to increase utility: IMO you are always better off buying strength than growth or density increase, for example, and this is an attempt to balance the scale without breaking the 5 points for one 'portion of power' meta-suggestion. I agree that it would be cleaner to have a simple mechanic for (say) growth: 5 points, you can grow up to twice your size, each +5 points, doubles again. This would have no effect other than increasing your size on the game board, and you could attack any hex that is now adjacent to you. Everything else (increased STR, Body, reach, KBR etc) you buy for yourself. Hell, you could even make it an adder for KBR.

 

Of course my suggestion takes away the slightly arbitrary nature of the 'growth momentum' mechanic, and you get your 'stretching meomentum' exactly the same way every movement power does - by using an appropriate manouvre, or buying a seperate power.

 

 

 

I assume that if you 'remain stretched,' then you don't get the "Stretching velocity" bonus inherent in the current rules should you re-attack the distant character?

 

That is right, although you could, retract and stretch again next phase to get it again. Unless you get grabbed or something in the meantime.

 

 

The Range thing:

 

Doesn't stretching already pretty much allow a character to target a distant opponent without moving adjacent to him? No; I'm not being flippant; I'm a bit confused, because these options you're suggesting are hinting that I may not understand the current incarnation of Stretching....

 

It does, but I'm suggesting a change to a movement power and logicking up the sfx a little - at present there is never any reason to remain stretched at the end of your phase (unless you are forming a bridge or something) and you can retract as a - the mechanic I suggest might require you to if you do not have the inches to get back to your normal shape. In effect what I'm suggesting is that you have the option of an adjacent move or a 'long punch', each with advantages and disadvantages - making the power more tactical than it is at present, and enhancing player choice (or so it says in the sales brochure).

 

 

 

A movement Pool or multipower already provide reasonable rates on a variety of movements. I'd sort of like to see a numbers analysis, if you happen to have one. With an advantage, the more Stetching the person has, the more expensive the movement itself would become. How do you determine the value of the movement power (did I overlook it? ) ?

 

With an actual purchased power, with or without a Framework, you are buying X amount of each movement. It's concise and the price does not vary depending on the amount of some other power a character has.

 

This is actually an existing advantage for movement powers in 5ER, so I was just pointing out that you could use it is stretching were a movement power. You could still use a MP, but that has potential problems unless all the slots are ultras.

 

 

These interested me, but I _believe_ such things are available through limited Shapeshift already. If not, well-- I don't see an immediate _real_ issue with them, just a feeling of unease

Honestly, at the first level-- small gaps-- I would almost think that the ability depends on the SFX alone, and perhaps a power Stunt or a Skill Roll.

 

In general, I have always regarded the use of adders as "stop sign" or "look again" things, simply because they seem to be more, to me, like paying specifically for your SFX. I can build a cyborg with stretching via mechanical limbs (Bionic Commando, anyone? ) who by default would not be able to pass through holes which his torso would plug. To represent this, I'd think instead to place limitations on Stretching: Limbs only.

Buying an adder to make the character all-over pliable seems to suggest that Stretching should _only_ make a character's limbs stretch, and in no way imply that he could stretch his ear to a speaker or his neck through a locked gate. It would seem to default that he couldn't even use the Stretching to flex himself free from a coil of rope.

 

If default stretching _should_ imply these things, and _not_ having these minor abilities is indeed a Limitation, then the Adders are not really needed.

however, and you gain no special immunities or defences from being in this semi-liquid state.

 

I am suggesting that you cannot stretch out of ropes, for example, as a 'freebie', because your stretching might be a sort of telescopic limb which does not appreciably change in diameter. The nice thing about adders, to my mind, as opposed to just applying sfx, is that it allows greater character definition. You can, on a point basis, build two quite different stretchy types: say Mr Fantastic and Machine Man. Mr F is far more flexible, if you'll pardon the pun, so should cost more.

 

Being able to squeeze through a pipe is a pretty useful and interesting thing to do, even though it rarely has a 'point cost' that can be accurately assessed, when you need it you need it, and again it helps to differentiate the character who can deform the whole of their body from teh character who can just deform part of it.

 

 

I understand completely where you're coming from, but if this is going to be just an "appearance only" thing-- kind of a "scare the cougars" thing, then I'd think it's a gimme or a power stunt. If it's going to be useful, then Shapeshift sort of covers that. It declares that you can change your shape but not your mass.

 

And if it's going to be _this useful:

 

This may help you, for example, float in water,

 

 

Buy a limited Swimming, or reduce the END or your default swimming, or treat it as a power stunt for Shapeshift.

 

It is more a way of logically allowing a character to decrease density with a game cost - something that you can't really do at present, unless you buy a very convoluted and limtied version of shrinking. the floating in water thing was an example - it would not in itself allow any movement - you just would be more difficult to sink. It is more of a definition thing. The power would be 'real' - you actually would be larger - not just 'appear' larger - but your mass would nto change.

 

 

 

Which, my friend, is kind of how I felt about some the suggestions of 'gimmes' with Stretching.

 

I agree but I've tried to limit the things I've suggested to things that you can't easily do with other powers - things you can you should sue those other powers for. I freely admit I'm trying to shift the 'actually changing shape' thing away from shapeshift, leaving it as a 'perfect illusion' power. It seems cleaner this way, and you could buy a small amount of stretching and appropriate adders to enhance your shapeshift power.

 

 

Again' date=' I have always held that simple shapes should be part of the power as a default. Complex shapes are the domain of ShapeShift. My opinion of course. [/quote']

 

An opionion that makes sense, but technically you can't change shape at all with stretching, as written in the rules and I thik there would be a lot less confusion about shapeshifting if you seperated the appears like something else' and 'change of shape' aspects of the power. I mean the 'change of shape' aspect is all a 'gimme' for touch shapeshift anyway, so it might as well move here where it at least makes more sense.

 

 

 

 

Again, for raw opinion shopping, I've never found it appropriate for anything. We already had "Indirect." Simply apply it to things not ordinarily considered to be offensive powers. I have done that one for years. I get a lot of that same reaction you might know as "You can Haymaker _that_?" from players who felt that Haymaker was the exclusive domain of punching.

For me, that falls into that whole "why make a new power to represent an old one?" thing.

But to get back on course:

 

 

Makes sense. I can sort of see where it is coming from, but I've never felt comfortable with it.

 

This is what I'm talking about: limiting the gimmes. Obviously we both agree that there should be limits on the gimmes ("no free teleport" in this case); I just place my limits sooner.

 

...and I thought I was stingy

 

 

I think I could more readily accept what you were suggesting if you were to move Stretching _entirely_ into the movement category' date=' and require some other build-- likely Shape Shift-- to simulate all non-movement aspects of Stretching. But given the combat utility of attacking and ending a phase at a distance, you may have to consider what would or what would not qualify in the current mechanics as a move-through/by, and how to handle the over-all pricing.[/quote']

 

We could do that: make stretching a mvoement power but remove the shape changing aspects and possibly put them in an entirely new power. Perhaps we could call it shapeshift, and do what shapeshift does by new adders for illussions: Perfect illusion +10 and lasting effect +10 (so your trail still smells like someone else even after you resume normal shape). Hmm....

 

Currently' date=' you're giving the results of a move-by without actually having to move, or take any 'incidental' damage. Even Flight can't give you that [/quote']

 

Well, technically you are moving and could be attacked at any point along your path, you are just ending up where you started. I'd still require you to take the incidental damage, BTW: you are using a 'powered punch' or whatever your sfx are, and if you hit something too solid that can still hurt.

 

I'm so glad to get back here.

 

Thanks, Sean! I've _really, really missed this sort of thing

 

...and it is very nice to have you back where you belong

[Lucius]

Re: You really moved me

 

Am I going to be the first one to suggest Megascale Stretch?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Defining the palindromedary as a speedster

[Sean Waters]

Re: You really moved me

 

Am I going to be the first one to suggest Megascale Stretch?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Defining the palindromedary as a speedster

 

Yes you are.

 

I'm going to suggest that the character's other powers should include duplication, and his name should be Mark.

[Duke Bushido]

Re: You really moved me

 

More later when I get home,

 

but I have to say that I had a very hard time, the first read through, not to just sing

"he's gonna be King of the Pirates! Yo-ho; yo-ho!"

 

:mrgreen:

[Duke Bushido]

Re: You really moved me

 

If I get something here that's confusing without proper reference, let me know; I'm trying to minimize the quote-of-a-quote-of-a-quote thing

 

 

 

Thank you for taking the time.

 

I agree that there is little point in trying to simply replace or recreate a power, but stretching does have an awful lot of movement like effects, and involves, well movement sfx.

 

Right. SFX. This may be one of those instances of reasoning from SFX as opposed to effect or results. If the SFX of Stretching are selected as some kind of pliability, then many other powers fall under that, after a fashion: running, via stretched legs, Swinging via stretched arms, etc.

 

But it's a common SFX; the powers already exist as a separate build.

 

For example, were I to buy Flight, I don't automatically default to having wings, rockets, or even a cape. If I have wings capable of lifting my mass off the ground, I should be able to get a Change Environment: light breeze. But I don't get it by default. I'd have to buy "change environment: light breeze" if it's something I wanted to do as more than an occasional power stunt. Similarly, simply buying Flight doesn't mean I get an automatic flamethrower with the exhaust on my rocket pack.

 

The pricing on stretching is high for what is, on the surface, a body-affecting power, and it doesn't have the perks of other body-affecting powers, such as Density Increase.

 

But it does something that the others don't: it adds Range to every physical ability you have, or at least this is the default that my group has always operated by. You have Range on your hand-to-hand skills and hand-to-hand powers. You have Range on your Strength. You even have 'Range' on your nostrils should you be trapped ten feet under the surface of the lake. He can even walk across the bottom of the lake should he get free-- he's got Range on his feet.

 

There _is_ a great deal of utility in Stretching already; there's just a trend to not fully appreciate utility that doesn't directly translate to combat.

 

Yes; you are right: there are some movement-like qualities, but those would seem to me to be rather limited. A person with Stretched arms might be able to use long arms to swing from tree to tree.

 

I don't see that as a Movement in itself. I can't remember how it is in 5e (remember that we play 2e), but isn't Swinging a Skill? If that's the case, then he will likely be required both a skill roll or Dex roll to keep from getting tangled, and sufficient STR to hold his grip while inertia does what it does to pendulums.

 

By the same token, a common man can swing from object to object, albeit much closer objects are required. But the character has paid for Stretching; he has effectively 'bought' a range for his arms.

 

The same goes for Climbing. Stretching allows him to graps handholds otherwise out of reach, but might not exceeding his 'normal' climbing rate by 'destretching' run him the risk of losing his handhold? Or running himself into an object?

 

And as for pulling himself across the ground or stretching his legs, without a skill or power -- Running, in this case-- he may be prone to losing his balance, or getting tangled in himself or an obstacle, or perhaps lack the sheer strength to move his now-distant feet against the leverage of his legs, at least at any accelerated rate that would grant him super-movement.

 

You mentioned that you do not think Stretching by default allows a limited pliability of the body; I disagree, but for the point of this discussion, I am willing to accept your view:

 

If this _is_ the case, however, then 'paddle hands" and "balloon boats" are also out of the equation without separate builds to represent them. In that, we agree. You suggest Adders; I suggest separate powers. If a Character buys an adder that makes him pliable enough for Paddle Hands and Balloon Boats then why is he not also pliable enough to pass through odd openings or assume a spherical shape?

 

I could be missing a key point in the discussion (I'll re-read it later), but wouldn't a character, assuming there is _no_ piability associated with Stretching, essentially need _all_ the suggested Adders to actually be pliable enough to pull of the power stunts needed for additional movements? If so, then the cost of useful, Mr Fantastic type stretching is extremely prohibitive.

 

As an aside to this point, isn't the 'complex shape' Adder stepping on the toes of ShapeShift? I would suggest, for the concept of Stretching as a Movement, that _all_ pliability-related Adders: balloon hands, squeezing through pipes, etc-- be moved to Shape Shift and left separate from a movement-type Stretching.

 

There's also the costing issue:

Basing Stretching as Running (long legs), leaping (slingshot arms or spring legs), Gliding (fan hands), and swimming (balloon boat) makes it rather high-dollar, and at the end of the day, it's still not Flight, which would be cheaper.

 

Sorry---

 

tangent; my fault.

 

The STR for extra reach on large creatures:

My group avoids that problem by playing 2e: Growth after a point adds some Range by default. It keeps the builds simple, clean, and sensible. Under 5e, you can have so much Growth that you can't fit in a single hex, but can still only attack what is directly adjacent to it....

 

AG! Another tanget.

 

Sorry--- the gal's asking questions and I'm losing my focus :oops:

 

I _do_ like getting rid of the 'stretching momentum' gimme; I do not particularly like the whole 'bonus combat utility' that the shape-altering powers have been given, simply because by default they assign a special effect: actually growing, in a rate and fashion as to make this bonus damage possible. Even "doesn't cross intervening space" (If I take that on my STR, is my Leap now a T-port? ) doesn't deny you the 'momentum damage.'

 

I'm sorry, Sean--

 

I can't finish this; the gal wants my time

 

Later!

[Comic]

Re: You really moved me

 

Another approach might instead be to have a -1/2 Limitation, "Anchored" on Movement powers.

 

E.g. 15" Flight, Anchored allows the character to fly up to 15" from their anchor (starting) point, or 30" Noncombat. It gives the slight advantage that the character's starting point takes knockback as if they weren't flying (though their endpoint does).

 

Anyone in or adjacent to any hex through which the character has flown can attack the character.

 

The character can move their anchor point normally with other abilities (Running, Leaping, Swimming, etc), or can as a separate half phase action change their anchor point to another hex through which they pass, using the other half of the phase to shift the 'used up' movement they've just freed. (So Segment 12, Fly 15" Anchored. Segment 3, change the anchor to a point 8" away from the first anchor, and slide both "old anchor" and endpoint up to 8" in the same direction.

 

Probably needs some work as a concept, but may be more in keeping with the intention to give a versatile 'stretchy' movement ability within the system.

[Sean Waters]

Re: You really moved me

 

If you built stretching as a movement power, it would do what any other movement power does (with the unique wrinkle that you have to stretch and retract to move, but you get no turn mode and vertical movement up to a point).

 

That is it. That is all you would get. You could do the walking along the bottom of the lake with stretch ed legs thing by stretching and using your normal running, but you could not extend your eyeball or your nostril. You could effectively punch at range because you are moving there and back, so all the 'movement like' qualities of stretching as it is are preserved, but the added utility that might or might not justify the current cost is not - yes it costs quite a bit to 'do' Mr Fantastic:

 

+10 Pass through tiny gaps

+5 Decrease density

+10 Complex shapes

 

25 point total. Mind you, it would only cost you another 16 points to get 8" of stretching with that for 41 points, and 'straight' stretching (as it is) would be costing you 40 points for 8" of stretching.

 

I think that the suggestion balances uitility and concept - at present you have to limit stretching if you just want 'extendable arms' - the suggestion gives a very 'pared down' version that works with system costing (i.e. the same as movement powers), but leaves the decsion as to how much added utility you want to the player.

 

And no, it does not intrude on shapeshift - it kicks its legs out and stamps on its head: 'shapeshift reexamined' is the title of a forthcoming thread that suggests that shapeshift should be a sense affecting power only, and should not allow any actual change of shape unless you buy adders (similar tot eh stretching ones I've sugegsted) or stretching.

[Mister E]

Re: You really moved me

 

I'm liking the idea of Stretching as a movement power... better than the current power. Nice one, Sean.

 

How's this new "Shape Shift" power you're talking about coming along.

[Duke Bushido]

Re: You really moved me

 

having found (finally) the time to re-read the thread, and being briefly free of distraction--

 

I don't have excessive qualms with Stretching as a movement _only_ power. I would posit, however, that should it become a movement power that such things as the adders for tiny gaps, pliability, etc, be done away with in relation to Stretching. These adders are _not_ movement-related. They are related to the shape and pliability of your body, and as such are more useful for body-affecting powers.

 

We are all familiar with various Desolid cobbles, and certainly with the adders you suggest, Sean, applied to shape-shift, the same results can be had while better achieving the divorce of Stretching from non-movement utility.

 

I think I said that right....

[Sean Waters]

Re: You really moved me

 

having found (finally) the time to re-read the thread, and being briefly free of distraction--

 

I don't have excessive qualms with Stretching as a movement _only_ power. I would posit, however, that should it become a movement power that such things as the adders for tiny gaps, pliability, etc, be done away with in relation to Stretching. These adders are _not_ movement-related. They are related to the shape and pliability of your body, and as such are more useful for body-affecting powers.

 

We are all familiar with various Desolid cobbles, and certainly with the adders you suggest, Sean, applied to shape-shift, the same results can be had while better achieving the divorce of Stretching from non-movement utility.

 

I think I said that right....

 

As it happens I was thinking about putting those cobbles in a seperate metapower, a sort of adder for any other power - so if you pick stretching or shapeshift or desolid, or any other power that makes sense, you could buy the ability to fit through small gaps and use it. I'd make it a straigh seperate power but there does not seem to be a single base ability. Possibly +5 Fit through small gaps?

[Comic]

Re: You really moved me

 

It occurs to me, why wouldn't your adders:

 

+10 Pass through tiny gaps

+5 Decrease density

+10 Complex shapes

 

apply to other movement forms? Flight by turning into energy, or flying so fast you reach relativistic speeds and distort dimensions of size? Likewise for density decrease. Complex shapes not so much, except to express a form of ultra-turn-mode that lets you sculpt shapes with your wake, for example flying with a rope and tying it into a knot as a flight stunt.

[Sean Waters]

Re: You really moved me

 

It occurs to me, why wouldn't your adders:

 

+10 Pass through tiny gaps

+5 Decrease density

+10 Complex shapes

 

apply to other movement forms? Flight by turning into energy, or flying so fast you reach relativistic speeds and distort dimensions of size? Likewise for density decrease. Complex shapes not so much, except to express a form of ultra-turn-mode that lets you sculpt shapes with your wake, for example flying with a rope and tying it into a knot as a flight stunt.

 

That is a pleasing idea, but no need necessarily to limit it to movement powers - I'd say that any power you can justify it for could take those adders.

[Duke Bushido]

Re: You really moved me

 

Well Sean--

 

there's been no further discussion for a couple of days now.

 

Sounds like it's time for a finalized write-up

[schir1964]

Re: You really moved me

 

Sean,

 

I've been following this thread. I'll give my comments once I digest your top post more thoroughly.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[schir1964]

Re: You really moved me

 

Overall, I think what you have come up with is fine based on how the current system works. However, Stretching touches on the whole Manipulation concept which is still a missing piece in the Hero System.

 

Therefore, I can only suggest the following to make your writeup complete as far as manipulation goes.

 

Stretching is still dependent on STR and limited in that for every additional appendage stretched simultaneously must share the STR and thus have reduced capabilities (STR, Damage, Lifting, Leaping). Also, mechanically speaking, Stretching is still limited to only being able to grab two separate things at most. Both of these restrictions fall short of many of the Stretching SFX.

 

Application:

List the Area Of Effect Advantage (Selective) as a unique advantage and spell out exactly what that would allow. Such and applications would allow one to stretch any number of appendages simultaneously and grab multiple targets.

List the Naked Power Advantage for STR that has the Area Of Effect Advantage applied to it so that each appendage may now have full STR capabilities.

 

It still doesn't fill the manipulation gap that exists, but it works well enough as far as the current system is concerned.

 

- Christopher Mullins