Is Leaping too Cheap?

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Is Leaping too Cheap?

 

Regarding physics' date=' leaping and enclosed spaces: given fixed gravity, starting point A, and ending point B, there are (infinitely) many leaping trajectories that could get one from A to B. One could take a higher or lower arcing trajectory, and it is not clear what the minimum height for a given horizontal distance should be.[/quote']

Well, from a physics perspective (which may not necessarily be the right approach to take for the sake of the game), the maximum horizontal distance is covered by an initial leap at 45 degrees above the horizontal. Using maximum leaping "force", an angle higher than that will go up higher, but you'll land closer. An angle lower than that won't get you as far because you won't have as much time in the air before gravity pulls you back down to the ground.

 

Therefore, the height you get to with a maximum distance leap is one-fourth of the distance. That's how high you are at the half-way point - the highest point in the arc. But wait, because there's more! That one-quarter figure is the height off the ground, and doesn't take into consideration the height of the person leaping. So the ceiling would be even higher than that, by the height of the leaper.

 

So if you're 1" tall and you can leap 20", then you'll need at least a 6" high ceiling to leap that far. But you might be able to get away with a bit less than that by crouching down a bit at the peak of the leap, but that might require some fancier maneuvering. Say 5.5" and a successful Acrobatics roll.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Is Leaping too Cheap?

 

But that isn't what 5ER says. It says you cannot turn off a movement power until you've reached 0" velocity from that power. It doesn't say that you cannot turn on another movement power until then.

 

The purpose of the rule from what I can tell is to stop people from thinking that they can come to an instant stop just by turning off their Flight.

 

Mostly I was just pointing out that the "loophole" you mentioned (being able to use Leaping to get a quick acceleration for your Flight) isn't a loophole in the system. It is only a loophole if you take a sharp knife to some of the existing rules. Kind of a cut your own loophole thing.

 

And I can think of at least one balance issue with allowing someone with Leaping in a MP to switch the points out mid-leap. One of the ways in which you are limited with a MP is that you can only get the effects of powers with active costs in total equal to or smaller than the MP pool. If you let people switch out of Leaping during the Leap, what's to stop them from switching out of Leaping during a multi-phase Leap, only to switch back in time to land?

 

The game mechanics in and of themselves do not describe the physics of the game world. We, as Refs and Players, decide how our Power constructs fit into the physics of the game world.

 

Nice points (as the actress said to the Bishop, or possibly the other way around).

 

On the multiphase leap thing, I'm not sure why someone would want to switch out of the leap unless it was to another movement power. I mean, if you switch to an attack you are moving non combat and, if you don't have a movement power in operation, in freefall. Good luck hitting anything. I suppose there is a potential END saving, but I'd want anyone switching off the power and then switching it on again to make a pretty heavily penalised DEX or acrobatics or breakfall roll to land under control. If not they do a non-combat speed movethrough on, well, the planet. That is going to hurt. If I felt the need for balance, that is where I'd be placing the fulcrum.

[Just Joe]

Re: Is Leaping too Cheap?

 

Well, from a physics perspective (which may not necessarily be the right approach to take for the sake of the game), the maximum horizontal distance is covered by an initial leap at 45 degrees above the horizontal. Using maximum leaping "force", an angle higher than that will go up higher, but you'll land closer. An angle lower than that won't get you as far because you won't have as much time in the air before gravity pulls you back down to the ground.

 

Therefore, the height you get to with a maximum distance leap is one-fourth of the distance. That's how high you are at the half-way point - the highest point in the arc. But wait, because there's more! That one-quarter figure is the height off the ground, and doesn't take into consideration the height of the person leaping. So the ceiling would be even higher than that, by the height of the leaper.

 

So if you're 1" tall and you can leap 20", then you'll need at least a 6" high ceiling to leap that far. But you might be able to get away with a bit less than that by crouching down a bit at the peak of the leap, but that might require some fancier maneuvering. Say 5.5" and a successful Acrobatics roll.

I think you're assuming that initial velocity is independent of the initial angle. That works for howitzers, but I don't think it works for leaps, especially not running ones. Also, even if everything you write is true for maximum leap, I don't see a way to infer the required height for leaps shorter than a character's maximum.

 

I still think your approach is helpful as a general guideline, but I would view it more as an upper limit for possible required clearance, rather than a true minimum.

[BoneDaddy]

Re: Is Leaping too Cheap?

 

In the calculations I used for my earlier posts, I calculated the height of the jump by first calculating the duration of the jump, and dividing it by two, and then applying GT^2/2, where G = the force of gravity, 32'/sec, t is the amount of time in seconds, and 2 is 2.

 

How long is the jump, in seconds? A combat leap (a half move) is half a second, by my reasoning. A 32 second noncombat leap would take you about 3/4 of a mile in the air. "I think I can see my house from here!"

 

The fun part (?) is that leap might take someone with 2" of leaping and X32 ncm just down the block, and over half a mile up.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Is Leaping too Cheap?

 

I think you're assuming that initial velocity is independent of the initial angle. That works for howitzers' date=' but I don't think it works for leaps, especially not running ones.[/quote']

Yes. I'm simplifying for the sake of easier physics. Though it seems that by some peoples' interpretation running leaps are impossible since you have to slow your running down to 0" before you can switch to a leap.

 

Also, even if everything you write is true for maximum leap, I don't see a way to infer the required height for leaps shorter than a character's maximum.

True. For a less-than-maximum leap, a character could use his "maximum leaping force" at a less efficient angle, or he could use less leaping force, or a combination of both.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Is Leaping too Cheap?

 

FWIW I experimented with a new +5 Adder for Leaping, "Rapid." The Rapid Adder offsets the extra Phase for each Noncombat doubling of Leaping distance, i.e. it would allow you to Leap your full Noncombat distance in a single Phase.

 

I originally charged an additional +5 Rapid to offset every additional Noncombat Multiplier bought for Leaping, so that each NCM would effectively cost +10 points. Because of the initial low cost of the Leaping Power, this made Leaping competitive with Flight or Running up to about the x8 NCM level; but beyond that it became unbalancingly expensive IMO. So, I decided to cap Rapid at +10 to work for any NCM. Once you add in the cost for the Accurate Adder for Leaping, the end result seemed to balance pretty well in price and benefits/drawbacks with other Movement Powers. So, the final description for the Adder would look something like this:

 

Rapid: This Adder offsets the additional Phases which a character with Leaping would spend "in the air" while Leaping for Noncombat distance. For +5 points the character can move double his base Leaping distance in a single Phase. For +10 points the character can move any Noncombat Multiple of his base Leaping distance in a single Phase, regardless of how many Noncombat Multipliers he purchases for Leaping.

[Zed-F]

Re: Is Leaping too Cheap?

 

You can only accelerate at your combat speed, if you are using NC running or flight. Thus, leaping is often already faster at non-combat movement than running or flying. Basically, leaping already gets the equivalent of the advantage 'Rapid Noncombat Movement' for free.

 

To counterbalance that, with flight or running, once you get to your top speed, you can stay at that speed as long as you can maintain it, so over very long distances, flight or running will be faster.

 

OTOH, teleport tends to be still faster, since it takes only 2 phases to do any arbitrarily long teleport.

 

Of course if we get into megascale, it renders the discussion moot, since Megascale completely obviates the need to worry about doublings or acceleration concerns.