Is Leaping too Cheap?

[Just Joe]

Forgive me if this has come up 100 times before. I tried a search, but as usual, I failed to find a pertinent thread.

 

Leaping seems awfully cheap to me for superheroic and similar power-level games. This is especially true for stronger characters, but let's take a 10 STR character, just for the sake of argument. For 18 points, you can buy +13" of leaping and the "accurate" adder, for 15" accurate leaping. Or you can buy +9" of running for 15" of running. This seems about right to me. The running allows you to turn corners and such, the leaping allows you to punch a flying opponent, get you on top of a 3 story building, etc. Roughly evens out. But for another 18 points, you can have 24" of running or 33" of leaping. Of course the 24" running has some advantages, but isn't the 33" leaping better overall?

[Psylint]

Re: Is Leaping too Cheap?

 

Interiors.

 

Leaping is of very limited value in places with low ceilings. Leaping is ballistic, i.e. you can only go from point a to b point directly, whereas running, flight and swimming all allow a character to weave through obstacles.

 

The other issue is, what would you do? Make each inch 1.5 pts? Leaping isn't as useful as flight, as flight is unbounded in the altitude it can attain, can hover, etc.

 

As to which is better overall, you have to look at the circumstances, it's hard to creep with leaping, it's essentially worthless inside buildings. So I'm okay with it.

 

Your mileage may differ.

 

Peace

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

Re: Is Leaping too Cheap?

 

With leaping, you're screwed 0.01 seconds after you take off. If you cannot see your target hex, even if you have 'accurate', you still don't know what's in that hex. Which means that after you take off, if anyone can get in your way, and wants to get in your way, they will get in your way. It's all fun and games. With Running you can dodge; with Flight, you can dodge. Even with Swimming, you can dodge. You can't dodge with Swinging or with Superleap; when you take off, you're committed. And if the GM has people smart enough to hold their actions, I would allow you your movement DCV, or maybe 1/2 your DCV.

 

Because, you see, you can't Dodge. And that's why it's cheaper.

[Comic]

Re: Is Leaping too Cheap?

 

One way to judge is to look at how often it's used.

 

Bargains are snatched up by low-rent players, after all.

 

And.. I don't see a lot of leapers, especially, and especially not in theme/concept breaking ways.

 

No leaping mentalists, for example, ever seem to come up.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Is Leaping too Cheap?

 

I look at Leaping as the flip side of Gliding. When added together they equal Flight.

 

Since it takes x2 to x4 Y" in any movement power to actually gain y" of altitude it's not that big a deal to allow 30+" of Leaping.

[BoneDaddy]

Re: Is Leaping too Cheap?

 

Leaping & Physics: I'll wait for The Ultimate Leaper to go to publication before speculating too heavily. I'm a big fan of leaping under certain circumstances, and I'd be interested to figure out the ceiling height necessary to make a combat leap (all of which have the same height for any given gravity, thanks to our good friend physics, specifically acceleration and gravity).

 

The question (as I see it, and remember, this is a game and not a physics simulator) is how long a non-combat leap takes. Is it 12/(2SPD) seconds for a non-combat move? This seems more likely than half a second, but I guess that's possible, too. Either one leads to irrational results.

 

I'll take half a second, first, since it's easier. That's about one lousy foot (two feet, really, but one of them is up, and one of them is back down. That also means that the Amazing Po-Go Boy, with 40" of leaping, leaps 20" in a half-move at an astonishing 288 KPH.

 

The option two produces startlingly irregular results. The Amazing Pogoslug, SPD 2, has 40" of leaping. It takes her three seconds to to make that half move. She launches herself 36 feet (5.5") into the air with each leap. The previously mention Po-Go Boy, SPD 6, makes his half move in a second, launching himself a mere 4 feet into the air. These are weird results because even Werner Heisenberg couldn't figure out how anybody ever hits anybody in combat using these calculations.

 

Me, I use option 3, and I disregard gravity, acceleration, and physics in favor of handwaivity and fun. Noncombat, half-move leaping can be made indoors under most circumstances, as far as I care. Longer leaps after that take more time.

 

As for the price points, Psylint pretty much covered it, but I will add this - non-combat leaping is slow. Really slow. I won't even get into the physics argument.

[Talon]

Re: Is Leaping too Cheap?

 

It bugs me that the active cost of Leaping is so low, but I think the overall cost is about right.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Is Leaping too Cheap?

 

Leaping can't turn.

 

You would be AMAZED how useful turning is.

[Vondy]

Re: Is Leaping too Cheap?

 

I think, in terms of practical use, its priced correctly in relation to flight. It has significantly less versatility.

[Bloodstone]

Re: Is Leaping too Cheap?

 

Leapers can change direction with the Bouncing rules, appropriate surfaces permitting of course.

 

I dislike that Movement Powers add to velocity based maneuvers at the same rate regardless of the active point costs. It's one of those situations where the number of dice of effect does not relate to the cost. Of course, the opportunities to use those forms of movement for attack should be less frequent, but sometimes it just doesn't play out that way.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Is Leaping too Cheap?

 

Leaping adds to strength based base leaping, which for a very strong character makes it very cheap and quite effective, but slow if you don't have lots of long straights.

 

For terrifyingly effective try this:

 

14" of gliding + 3" of flight (linked: gliding)

 

That looks like 18 points to me and gets you a 17" move, a very effective movement speed, but I'd probably spring the extra point to get to 18", for a power that is as good as flight in 90% of situations, costs 2 END (as opposed to 4 for 18" of flight) and, well, just works really well for not a lot of points.

 

Swimming, swinging, leaping: personally I'd have preferred to see them as 2 point per 1", with some sort of mandatory limitation at -1: then you could still have cheap, but the END cost and active points would be consistent for all movement powers.

[casualplayer]

Re: Is Leaping too Cheap?

 

Leaping would be costed fine if STR didn't provide figured Leaping and everyone started with just 2".

 

Accurate tends to hose up the costing some also because you used to have to spend points to leap to your target, ameliorating the cheapness. Eventually the lightbulb would go on above Leapers heads and they would turn bargain basement +OCV Leaping levels into multi-use ones for Move-By, Move-Thru, DCV, etc. Then you get a glimpse of why Spider-Man is such a bad-arse.

[Duke Bushido]

Re: Is Leaping too Cheap?

 

 

For terrifyingly effective try this:

 

14" of gliding + 3" of flight (linked: gliding)

 

That looks like 18 points to me and gets you a 17" move, a very effective movement speed, but I'd probably spring the extra point to get to 18", for a power that is as good as flight in 90% of situations, costs 2 END (as opposed to 4 for 18" of flight) and, well, just works really well for not a lot of points.

 

I gotta get me a new keyboard.

 

The "Smite" button is all worn out on this one....

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Is Leaping too Cheap?

 

Another thing to keep in mind about Leaping vs. other movement forms, is that Noncombat Leaping is significantly inferior in terms of actual speed of travel when compared to Running or Flight. Athough the distance traveled increases, since characters have to spend an extra Phase "in the air" for each Noncombat Multiple, they cover ground at a far slower rate.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Is Leaping too Cheap?

 

Leapers can change direction with the Bouncing rules, appropriate surfaces permitting of course.

 

I dislike that Movement Powers add to velocity based maneuvers at the same rate regardless of the active point costs. It's one of those situations where the number of dice of effect does not relate to the cost. Of course, the opportunities to use those forms of movement for attack should be less frequent, but sometimes it just doesn't play out that way.

 

The Bouncing Rules are both optional and sketchy at best too.

 

So Leaping really could be: Flight; May Only Turn Using Appropriate Surface (-1)

[Trebuchet]

Re: Is Leaping too Cheap?

 

The Bouncing Rules are both optional and sketchy at best too.

Where exactly may the optional bouncing rules be found?

[Vondy]

Re: Is Leaping too Cheap?

 

Where exactly may the optional bouncing rules be found?

 

I'm pretty sure they are referring to "bouncing an attack," which is an optional combat maneuver in the main rule-book. Of course, I could be completely wrong about this...

[Vondy]

Re: Is Leaping too Cheap?

 

Another thing to keep in mind about Leaping vs. other movement forms' date=' is that Noncombat Leaping is significantly inferior in terms of actual speed of travel when compared to Running or Flight. Athough the distance traveled increases, since characters have to spend an extra Phase "in the air" for each Noncombat Multiple, they cover ground at a far slower rate.[/quote']

 

And become sniper bait...

[ghost-angel]

Re: Is Leaping too Cheap?

 

Where exactly may the optional bouncing rules be found?

 

First note: By "sketchy" I meant, not reliable since they require outside forces (appropriate surfaces) to work.

 

Bouncing Rules:

(Leaping) Ultimate Speedster p38

(Acrobatics) Champions p162; Ultimate Skill p73

 

The Acrobatics Bouncing is part of the Skill, while the Leaping Bouncing are optional/alternate rules.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Is Leaping too Cheap?

 

I'm pretty sure they are referring to "bouncing an attack' date='" which is an optional combat maneuver in the main rule-book. Of course, I could be completely wrong about this...[/quote']

 

You are, there are rules for using Bouncing as a form of movement (either as part of the Acrobatics Skill or Leaping).

[BoneDaddy]

Re: Is Leaping too Cheap?

 

And become sniper bait...

No matter the cost savings, do not purchase your extra inches of leaping with the Incantation "Pull!"

[Trebuchet]

Re: Is Leaping too Cheap?

 

First note: By "sketchy" I meant, not reliable since they require outside forces (appropriate surfaces) to work.

 

Bouncing Rules:

(Leaping) Ultimate Speedster p38

(Acrobatics) Champions p162; Ultimate Skill p73

 

The Acrobatics Bouncing is part of the Skill, while the Leaping Bouncing are optional/alternate rules.

Your Hero-fu is strong, GA-san!

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

Re: Is Leaping too Cheap?

 

For terrifyingly effective try this:

 

14" of gliding + 3" of flight (linked: gliding)

 

That looks like 18 points to me and gets you a 17" move, a very effective movement speed ...

 

Interesting thought. Explain to me your theory behind this.

 

I didn't figure you could combine two movement powers into one movement -- unless, of course, you were going to half-move using one, then half-move using the other. So, really, you get to move 7" gliding and 1" of flying -- or 8", going by your two movements. 9", if you tack on that extra 1" of Flight.

 

NIMGYD.

[Comic]

Re: Is Leaping too Cheap?

 

Interesting thought. Explain to me your theory behind this.

 

I didn't figure you could combine two movement powers into one movement -- unless, of course, you were going to half-move using one, then half-move using the other. So, really, you get to move 7" gliding and 1" of flying -- or 8", going by your two movements. 9", if you tack on that extra 1" of Flight.

 

NIMGYD.

 

I'd require +1/4 'Usable as Gliding' as an advantage on the Flight component, and wouldn't allow the linked disadvantage, since two different movement modes combine according to a lot of different conditions: does the character use a full move or half move, do the modes both have the same noncombat multiplyer, is a combat maneuver being attempted, etc.?

 

Mixing running and leaping is a great example of how these might relate (comparing standing leap with running leap, and applying the rules for adding ground speed to leaping distance, e.g.)

 

Also, I really distrust powers bought at less than the old standard power minimums. Paying for less than 5" of Flight just seems wrong, to me. If the concept is 1" of Flight, buy 5" and just don't go any faster than 1". Power minimums seem to help balance characters, in my experience.

 

So, you'd get 12" Gliding + 5" Flight (+1/4 Usable as Gliding), for 24 APs, which would give you 17" Gliding for 1 END, or 5" Flight, or 12" Gliding for 0 END, or 3" Flight + 6" Gliding as two half moves.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Is Leaping too Cheap?

 

I gotta get me a new keyboard.

 

The "Smite" button is all worn out on this one....

 

It is working fine: I have a shield mouse