EC unsuitable?

[Kdansky]

Well, I wanted to hear some suggestions to a "problem" I have. A character in my game is a psi-genius, very good at all sorts of mind-X, but otherwise rather weak. I was thinking about doing this the EC way:

 

EC Mind Powers 75 AP

Telepathy 10d6, +1/2 invisible to normal sight

Mind Scan 10d6, invisible to normal sight (do I need that?)

Mind Control 10d6 invisible

 

Why invisible: He can just use his powers without anyone noticing he does it. That's just part of the concept (as a GM I don't think it will be too good, I've seen this in action already, mostly due to implicit "limitations" with psi powers in the world (for example god-like beings always have a mental damage shield)).

 

My problem: I want to add some sort of defense to him, because he's awfully squishy. Obvious approach: having a Force Field in the EC. Problems: Just too many AP. A 75 AP FF will outright destroy my game balance, there's nearly nothing that can even harm him anymore then. But since all powers in an EC have to be the same AP, the Field cannot be smaller, or it would have to be outside the EC, and then it's kinda small again (or expensive). Could I stack power defense, mental defense, flash defense all in one slot?

 

Sidenote: I also want to put a Mind link in this framework, but again, that's not expensive enough to fill the required 75 AP (well, one can just take about 1024 active links instead of the required 8, but it's not useful at all).

[Comic]

Re: EC unsuitable?

 

There are a lot of ways of making a Force Field 'less' powerful for the same points. Advantages add up quickly, for one thing - Reduced to Zero Endurance and Persistent comes to +1. Make the Force Field IPE, and that's a 15 rPD/ 15 rED Force Field, which isn't too overpowering usually.

 

Put other defenses into the force field - Mental Defense, say, and you're down to 10 rPD/ 10 rED/ 10 rMental. Harden it a couple of times, toss in Power Defense and Flash Defense as part of the Force Field for good measure, and for 75 AP, you're getting about 4 rPD/ 4 rED. Note that these defenses as Force Field belong in an EC, since they cost Endurance. Of course, if they fit the special effects, make dramatic and game sense, and so on, is up to you as the GM to work out.

 

Mind Link really doesn't belong in EC's, by my reading, so.. leave it out, or link it to the EC by special effects (perhaps with a -1/4 limitation) so if the EC is ever drained or suppressed, so is the Mind Link.

 

And Invisible Power Effects is very popular for mentalists, because it leaves pretty much only Danger Sense as the way to find the psychic, or even be aware they're using a power. Which is a big advantage, for most.

 

Just my $0.02.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: EC unsuitable?

 

First, Mental powers are already invisible vs. normal senses by default.

 

Second, Comic has the right idea. Add all the bells and whistles to the Force Field. Alternatively you could use Force Wall instead since Mental powers are not stopped by it.

 

If you still need 75 active points you could do something like:

 

75 Force Field (10 PD/10 ED/10 Mental Defense/10 Power Defense) (Protect Carried Items), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (75 Active Points) - END=0

75 Force Wall (12 PD/12 ED), Costs END Only To Activate (+1/4) (75 Active Points) - END=6

 

Also, see an unfinished mentalist character of mine:

 

I-Mind

[Kdansky]

Re: EC unsuitable?

 

Thanks for the replies, I need to think about that for a moment, but I have other questions in the mean time:

 

- Invisible advantage. Now what exactly does the target "see" when I use Telepathy on him without being invisible? Does he know "someone" is in his thoughts? Does he know it's me? Does anyone else see me doing that? Does anyone else see me doing that if he has mental awareness? Which of these can be prevented by invisible adv?

- Also, you have used a MP with I-Mind, which works great, except for Mind Scan (as soon as you switch points out of MS, you lose your telepathy target). I'm not sure what is cheaper, mind scan separate and multi for the rest, or all in one EC.

 

The reason for Mind link belonging to the EC: It's actually the "friendly telepathy", but since telepathy needs END and is a bit more than talking, using a different mechanic works better. Search per Mind Scan, set up Link. Mobile phone in the middle ages!

[Hyper-Man]

Re: EC unsuitable?

 

Thanks for the replies, I need to think about that for a moment, but I have other questions in the mean time:

 

- Invisible advantage. Now what exactly does the target "see" when I use Telepathy on him without being invisible? Does he know "someone" is in his thoughts? Does he know it's me? Does anyone else see me doing that? Does anyone else see me doing that if he has mental awareness? Which of these can be prevented by invisible adv?

- Also, you have used a MP with I-Mind, which works great, except for Mind Scan (as soon as you switch points out of MS, you lose your telepathy target). I'm not sure what is cheaper, mind scan separate and multi for the rest, or all in one EC.

 

The reason for Mind link belonging to the EC: It's actually the "friendly telepathy", but since telepathy needs END and is a bit more than talking, using a different mechanic works better. Search per Mind Scan, set up Link. Mobile phone in the middle ages!

 

 

Any bystandards with Mental Awareness will notice the use of mental powers without IPE. The target of the mental powers may or may not notice the powers depending on which one is being used. Example, the effect chosen at use and the roll on the dice determines whether Mind Control or Mental Illusions are noticed by the target. But Ego Attack has no built in function regarding IPE vs. the target. I believe the same applies to Telepathy but I suggest checking 5er to make sure.

 

re: Mind Scan and I-Mind.

 

The character was primarily an exercise in making a playable TK/Mentalist on 350 points. Using Telepathy or any of the other major mental powers via a long distance Mind Scan was not necessary for the character to possess at campaign outset. XP could certainly be saved to add a Mind Scan slot to the EC in the future though.

[Sean Waters]

Re: EC unsuitable?

 

Defences for mentalists are often a difficult thing to justify but can I just plug the sfx approach:

 

Combat telepathy:

 

You can avoid incoming attacks because you subconsciously move out of their way as you are connected menatlly to everyone around you, and can sense when they are going to attack you:-

 

Force Field (15 PD/15 ED/10 Mental Defense/10 Power Defense), Costs END Only To Activate (+1/4) (62 Active Points); Restrainable (-1/2), Limited Power Power loses about a third of its effectiveness (Not v opponents who do not have normal human minds, attacks launched from over 30" away or opponents with 15+ mental defence or environmental damage; -1/2), Limited Power Power loses about a fourth of its effectiveness (Half effect v AoE attacks; -1/4)

 

65 active, 27 real

 

Alternatively to actual defences buy a level or two of combat luck and a construct like the one above buy using DCV levels instead - you know when to move because you know when someone is targetting you. Not so good for an EC, of course....

[Psylint]

Re: EC unsuitable?

 

I prefer the PreCog defense

 

"Precognitive defense" using his superior psychic powers X knows when and where he is about to be targeted and adjusts appropriately +Z General Combat Levels (only towards DCV or DECV), costs endurance.

 

At 8 pts a level, it stack pretty quickly. Alternatively

 

"Iron will" using extreme power of Ego, X recognizes that most "damage" is really psychic in nature the giving up, summoning his Iron will, X shuts down pain receptors and otherwise shrugs off damage. +z rpd +yred +q mental defense + b power defense, hardened, 1/2 endurance cost.

 

"Telekinetic shield" Forcewall, no range, self only. X uses his telekinetic power to pickup debris scattered about the battle field and interpose it between himself and danger. [also used with missile deflection]

 

Alternatively you can just buy additional stun, body, constitution to represent the iron willed ability to shrug it off.

 

Peace

[pinecone]

Re: EC unsuitable?

 

You can also use Combat luck defined as "Unconsious use of PSI"....at 6 each they are plenty cheap and 3 or 4 makes for a stout defence...

[Duke Bushido]

Re: EC unsuitable?

 

Backing up to 'upping AP' on force wall:

 

As mentioned, Advantages add up quick. Stack a couple of "Hardened" on it for an interesting construct

 

Alternatively --

 

and I already know this will be met with with a less-than-happy atmosphere, as it goes against a very old canon:

 

Use GM Fiat. Allow him to build an 'appropriate' defense for your campaign, and just stick it in the EC even if it doesn't meet the cost requirement.

 

Yes, such an option _is_ subject to abuse, if it's made a sweeping rule. But I've allowed individual exceptions on almost every EC ever built at my table (most noteably "Instant Change" and cases like yours: the player wants _less_ defense than he's entitled to).

 

In twenty years, it's never been a balance issue. Yes; it has the potential to be abused: I can get a whole pile of smaller powers at 1/2 price if I pay full price for a big one, and I've got points left over to spend on other stuff! Yay, me!

 

But that's just a potential. If that actually happens, then you have failed your role as GM.

[Comic]

Re: EC unsuitable?

 

My prefered approach, for 'pure mentalist defenses' is a combination of Combat Luck, Danger Sense, and a defense-oriented martial art with some 3-pt skill levels.

 

It fits a smart, mentally-disciplined person with exotic training (Yogic martial arts, e.g.) by theme, allows a person to have purely non-physical psychic powers for a tighter EC, and works out to be fairly cost effective.

[casualplayer]

Re: EC unsuitable?

 

I can't believe I'm suggesting the use of a power that I despise the overuse of but it seems appropriate in this case.

 

Fear is the Mindkiller: 75% Physical resistant Damage Reduction + 25% Energy resistant Damage Reduction, both STUN Only, EGO based

 

Through force of will he ignores the pain, although his flesh may still be rended badly (BODY damage.) You may want to make the character have to be aware of the attack to mentally brace himself for the blow, and Damage Reduction requires GM approval to go in an EC.

[Kdansky]

Re: EC unsuitable?

 

All great ideas, but I should have gone to greater lengths to explain a bit about the character He's neither trained, nor very tough, nor anything to that matter. He's just a very gifted kid (yes, not even grown up), who has an extraordinary ability to read other peoples minds. So all the "I'm not feeling the pain" things are really ill suited, sorry He's actually afraid of getting hurt (btw, what's a good psych disadv on that?) and also easy to frighten (vulnerability against fear based PRE attacks).

 

Also note it's not a superhero campaign, but more of a Film noir Steam punk. The setting is pretty unusual, that makes character creation very easy (you can come up with nearly anything) and very hard (sometimes you just cannot justify a required power well. We just cannot have a 20 stun, 10 con, 10 body, 3/3 pd/ed character without resistant defenses in a game where most attacks are around 3d6 KA).

 

I think I will go for "please don't hurt me", cover on the ground and generate a massive force of telekinetic energy around him (either field or wall, probably field). Very nice idea with damage reduction, but it's actually more about body than stun.

 

At the moment it looks like this:

EC 60 pkt

Telepathy 12d6 (6 END / phase), Full Concentration (-0.5): 30/1.5 = 20 cp

Mind Scan 12d6 (6 END / phase), Full turn (-1.25), Full Concentration (-0.5): 30 / 2.75 = 11 cp

Mind Control 12d6 (6 END / phase), Full Concentration (-0.5): 30 / 1.5 = 20 cp

"I don't want to die!" - Big bunch of shields:

Force Field 40 cp: big 20/20 resistant defenses. 4 END / phase. 10 cp (+30 by EC)

Power Defense 10 cp (-0.5 costs END): 7 cp

Mental Defense 10 cp (-0.5 costs END): 7 cp

Mind Link, 15 pkt any target, +10 no Los, , +15 up to 8 people. invisible (+0.5). 0 END, 60 AP, 30 cp

(not happy with that yet) Mind Blast, 6d6 (6 END), no killing damage (+0), partial concentration (-0.25), Full turn (-0.25), 30 / 1.5 = 20 cp

 

Not in EC:

Healing, small part: 2d6, 20 AP, double END (-0.5, 4 END), full turn (-1.25) , total cost 7

Healing, big thing: +6d6, 60 AP, tripple END (-1, 18 END), full turn (-1.25), activation roll 11- (-0.5) total 16

 

total cost: 178, since the character will have pretty cheap stats (most of them are base, he IS a boy), this might be doable with about 200-250 total.

 

disads:

Afraid of battles / being hurt (not yet sure how to model)

Mute 20 cp

Just a Boy (social disad)

Despises physical labour

 

 

I'm actually the GM, not the player, but the player does not like the number crunching and his concept is rather powerful, so I'm "helping". I'm not yet entirely happy with what I have (most powers are extremly bland), so ideas are welcome

[Comic]

Re: EC unsuitable?

 

Oh.

 

He's going to die.

 

And take a lot of innocent people with him.

 

I like it.

[Kdansky]

Re: EC unsuitable?

 

Yes, I think there will be dieing involved in that campaign. And since you mention it, innocents always make good targets *scribbles something in a black, leather-bound book labeled CAMPAIGN OF UTTER DOOM AND DESTRUCTION in red, bloody letters, then cackles maniacally*

[Psylint]

Re: EC unsuitable?

 

Seems to me that an elemental control is just a special +1 limitation (in that it's taken off the top) combined with a +1/4 limitation (drained as a single power). In my compromise, I would try to keep that in mind.

 

So if the Elemental control was based on a 25 pt control cost and general 50 active points,

 

A player that wanted 30 active points of forcefield would get a 15 pt EC bonus, and just calculate off that. This I think helps prevent the abuse of giving it essentially for free (25pt EC bonus) while still rewarding the character for having a tight character conception and putting an appropriate EC power in the EC even if it has to be fudged a bit to fit mechanically in the rules.

 

Just my two bits

[Diamond Spear]

Re: EC unsuitable?

 

All great ideas, but I should have gone to greater lengths to explain a bit about the character He's neither trained, nor very tough, nor anything to that matter. He's just a very gifted kid (yes, not even grown up), who has an extraordinary ability to read other peoples minds. So all the "I'm not feeling the pain" things are really ill suited, sorry He's actually afraid of getting hurt (btw, what's a good psych disadv on that?) and also easy to frighten (vulnerability against fear based PRE attacks).

 

Also note it's not a superhero campaign, but more of a Film noir Steam punk. The setting is pretty unusual, that makes character creation very easy (you can come up with nearly anything) and very hard (sometimes you just cannot justify a required power well. We just cannot have a 20 stun, 10 con, 10 body, 3/3 pd/ed character without resistant defenses in a game where most attacks are around 3d6 KA).

 

I think I will go for "please don't hurt me", cover on the ground and generate a massive force of telekinetic energy around him (either field or wall, probably field). Very nice idea with damage reduction, but it's actually more about body than stun.

 

At the moment it looks like this:

EC 60 pkt

Telepathy 12d6 (6 END / phase), Full Concentration (-0.5): 30/1.5 = 20 cp

Mind Scan 12d6 (6 END / phase), Full turn (-1.25), Full Concentration (-0.5): 30 / 2.75 = 11 cp

Mind Control 12d6 (6 END / phase), Full Concentration (-0.5): 30 / 1.5 = 20 cp

"I don't want to die!" - Big bunch of shields:

Force Field 40 cp: big 20/20 resistant defenses. 4 END / phase. 10 cp (+30 by EC)

Power Defense 10 cp (-0.5 costs END): 7 cp

Mental Defense 10 cp (-0.5 costs END): 7 cp

Mind Link, 15 pkt any target, +10 no Los, , +15 up to 8 people. invisible (+0.5). 0 END, 60 AP, 30 cp

(not happy with that yet) Mind Blast, 6d6 (6 END), no killing damage (+0), partial concentration (-0.25), Full turn (-0.25), 30 / 1.5 = 20 cp

 

Not in EC:

Healing, small part: 2d6, 20 AP, double END (-0.5, 4 END), full turn (-1.25) , total cost 7

Healing, big thing: +6d6, 60 AP, tripple END (-1, 18 END), full turn (-1.25), activation roll 11- (-0.5) total 16

 

total cost: 178, since the character will have pretty cheap stats (most of them are base, he IS a boy), this might be doable with about 200-250 total.

 

disads:

Afraid of battles / being hurt (not yet sure how to model)

Mute 20 cp

Just a Boy (social disad)

Despises physical labour

 

 

I'm actually the GM, not the player, but the player does not like the number crunching and his concept is rather powerful, so I'm "helping". I'm not yet entirely happy with what I have (most powers are extremly bland), so ideas are welcome

 

Full concentration plus low defenses in a world with lots of killing attacks could prove to be a very poor design choice. Average STUN on a 3d6 KA is 30-32 so with a 10 CON and 20 points of defense an average attack will stun him which will result in the force field going down and a nice squishy target for any following shots. It gets worse when you factor in the fact that he'll have a DCV of 0 when using most of his powers. Called shots with killing atttacks at people with a 0 DCV can quite easily result in a dead character and lots of hurt feelings.

[Kdansky]

Re: EC unsuitable?

 

You got a point there. Although I'm not allowing called shots usually. Vitals is just way too easy to hit and instagib all the time.

[SteveZilla]

Re: EC unsuitable?

 

- Invisible advantage. Now what exactly does the target "see" when I use Telepathy on him without being invisible? Does he know "someone" is in his thoughts? Does he know it's me? Does anyone else see me doing that? Does anyone else see me doing that if he has mental awareness? Which of these can be prevented by invisible adv?

 

The Perceivability of Mental Powers

...

However, the target of a mental attack can sense the source of the attack and knows what Power he's been attacked with. This identification occurs immediately for Ego Attack, Mind Scan, and Telepathy; for Mind Control or Mental Illusions it usually occurs after the Power no longer affects the character. Of course, a mentalist can buy a Mental Power with the Power Advantage Invisible Power Effects (versus Mental Senses); in this case, the target would not be able to sense the source of the attack (but would know he'd been attacked with a particular Mental Power). A mentalist can prevent a target from knowing he's been attacked with a Mental Power by achieving a +20 effect on his Effect Roll.

 

And...

 

Keywords: Invisible Mental

Since Invisible Power Effects at double cost hides the effects as well as the source of a power, does that mean it could makes the use of a Mental Power from its target without the Mental Power having to achieve the +20 effect normally required to do that?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

No. The Advantage makes the effects of the power completely undetectable by other characters (and, in the case of Cumulative, prevents the victim from feeling the "building" power). The +20 effect hides the effect (the "damage," if you will) from the victim himself, which IPE can’t do. By analogy, think of an ordinary attack that caused pain the victim somehow didn't feel so that he didn’t know how badly hurt he was.

 

The reason for Mind link belonging to the EC: It's actually the "friendly telepathy"' date=' but since telepathy needs END and is a bit more than talking, using a different mechanic works better. Search per Mind Scan, set up Link. Mobile phone in the middle ages![/quote']

 

I Know My Allies: Mind Link (Any 8 Minds), No LOS Needed + Zero END(+½), Invisible Power Effects(+½)(80 Active Points); Costs Half END(-¼)

 

80 Active Points, costs 4 END to allow it to be put into an EC. Normally, the No LOS Needed adder limits that type of connection to INT/5 people who must be defined when the power is purchased. Changing who is "on the list" is difficult and time consuming. I would allow a mentalist to buy +1 mind for +2 Adder Points -- about the same cost as buying 5 INT - Only To Raise the No LOS Needed Limit(-1), but it's part of the power.