0" Flight?

[Tonio]

How do I build a power which would let the character simply hover in place? He would not be able to move anywhere, but he wouldn't fall, either.

 

The Levitation (-1/2) limitation sounds like it'd work, except that limits flight to up/down only, whereas I want to limit it to NO movement at all.

 

I guess I could fudge it with a, say, Limited Power (Can't move; -2), but since I'd be buying only 1" of Flight this way, the whole power would only cost 1cp, even if 0 END and Persistent.

 

Is there a better way to build this?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: 0" Flight?

 

So it costs 1 point. You have to gain altitude using some means other than your flight. You can't decelerate a fall (that would be based on inches of flight being used to "move" by opposing movement). You're at the mercy of the wind or anyone who decides to push, pull or drag you somewhere else since, again, 0" Flight means no momentum to resist.

 

Maybe 1 point is a reasonable cost for an ability that really only lets you float wherever someone else put you.

[Sean Waters]

Re: 0" Flight?

 

How do I build a power which would let the character simply hover in place? He would not be able to move anywhere, but he wouldn't fall, either.

 

The Levitation (-1/2) limitation sounds like it'd work, except that limits flight to up/down only, whereas I want to limit it to NO movement at all.

 

I guess I could fudge it with a, say, Limited Power (Can't move; -2), but since I'd be buying only 1" of Flight this way, the whole power would only cost 1cp, even if 0 END and Persistent.

 

Is there a better way to build this?

 

Well you can use X" of flight (only for deceleration) -1 1/2, maybe -2.

 

That way you can always slow down, including not falling, but can't actually go anywhere. There is an advantage to buying more flight as it enables you to decelerate faster: if you have any velocity at al, 1" will only let you decelerate by 1" per phase: OK if you step off a building, more of a problem if you are thrown off one: 10" of downward velocity would take 10 phases to cancel!

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: 0" Flight?

 

Well you can use X" of flight (only for deceleration) -1 1/2, maybe -2.

 

That way you can always slow down, including not falling, but can't actually go anywhere. There is an advantage to buying more flight as it enables you to decelerate faster: if you have any velocity at al, 1" will only let you decelerate by 1" per phase: OK if you step off a building, more of a problem if you are thrown off one: 10" of downward velocity would take 10 phases to cancel!

 

Would it take 10 phases or 20? Upward movement is halved.

[Comic]

Re: 0" Flight?

 

Halving rounds up, in this case.

 

Now, if you're of the 'Minimum cost' school for powers, you'd be facing the (usually) 5" minimum (10 AP). Then the difference in limitation matters a bit more (Real Cost of 4 vs 7), but you also get a more practical amount of deceleration (3", x2 noncombat).

 

Which seems about fair for a (partial, but pretty good) defense from falling.

[Sean Waters]

Re: 0" Flight?

 

Would it take 10 phases or 20? Upward movement is halved.

 

I did think about that and ignored it

 

Whilst deceleration is technically upward movement, we don't actually bother modelling gravity properly anyway (you should be adding downward velocity, so very small flight powers should not be able to stop you fall ing, just slow you). You have to draw the detail line somewhere or your graphics card won't be able to cope. Er...

[Tonio]

Re: 0" Flight?

 

Why wouldn't he be able to decelerate a fall? A character with 1" Flight with no Limitations can fly at 1", even if he's falling, no? Or does he have to decelerate to 0" velocity before being able to control his flight? If the latter, I guess buying, say, 20" limited to hovering only would allow me to decelerate at 20", just not move anywhere?

 

Edit: Heh, you guys post fast... these questions were answered, thanks! =)

[Sean Waters]

Re: 0" Flight?

 

Why wouldn't he be able to decelerate a fall? A character with 1" Flight with no Limitations can fly at 1", even if he's falling, no? Or does he have to decelerate to 0" velocity before being able to control his flight? If the latter, I guess buying, say, 20" limited to hovering only would allow me to decelerate at 20", just not move anywhere?

 

Edit: Heh, you guys post fast... these questions were answered, thanks! =)

 

It is a nightmare, isn't it You start to reply and suddenly what was a single post is a three page discussion!

[Hyper-Man]

Re: 0" Flight?

 

Why wouldn't he be able to decelerate a fall? A character with 1" Flight with no Limitations can fly at 1", even if he's falling, no? Or does he have to decelerate to 0" velocity before being able to control his flight? If the latter, I guess buying, say, 20" limited to hovering only would allow me to decelerate at 20", just not move anywhere?

 

Edit: Heh, you guys post fast... these questions were answered, thanks! =)

 

Reverse the question.

 

How much Flight does it take to move 1" straight up?

 

Answer: at least 2" of Flight

 

Based on that alone I would argue for a bare minimum ACTIVE cost of 4 points before an Limitations.

[SteveZilla]

Re: 0" Flight?

 

How do I build a power which would let the character simply hover in place? He would not be able to move anywhere, but he wouldn't fall, either.

 

The Levitation (-1/2) limitation sounds like it'd work, except that limits flight to up/down only, whereas I want to limit it to NO movement at all.

 

I guess I could fudge it with a, say, Limited Power (Can't move; -2), but since I'd be buying only 1" of Flight this way, the whole power would only cost 1cp, even if 0 END and Persistent.

 

Is there a better way to build this?

 

Primarily because it's only 1", and that means that *any* move using it would be a Full Move, I'd say that Can't Move would be only -1.

 

Reverse the question.

 

How much Flight does it take to move 1" straight up?

 

Answer: at least 2" of Flight

 

Based on that alone I would argue for a bare minimum ACTIVE cost of 4 points before an Limitations.

 

5th edition got rid of minimum purchases though. Which leaves just the increments of the power as the minimum purchase (unless the GM says otherwise). Since the requested build was just for someone to hover in place, 1" of flight does that. And 1" of Flight can still decellerate a fall by 1" per Phase.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: 0" Flight?

 

Why wouldn't he be able to decelerate a fall? A character with 1" Flight with no Limitations can fly at 1"' date=' even if he's falling, no? Or does he have to decelerate to 0" velocity before being able to control his flight? If the latter, I guess buying, say, 20" limited to hovering only would allow me to decelerate at 20", just not move anywhere?[/quote']

 

I would require the falling character to cancel out his falling velocity first, after which he can fly normally. Note that you can move 1" laterally for every 1" downward, however. With 1" Flight, I would allow:

 

- no further acceleration of the fall (if he steps off a building, he may commence flying immediately, so he does not accelerate once he uses his flight)

 

- canceling 1" downward velocity for every 1" upwards (he's not trying to move up, just stop moving down).

[Tonio]

Re: 0" Flight?

 

Reverse the question.

 

How much Flight does it take to move 1" straight up?

 

Answer: at least 2" of Flight

 

Based on that alone I would argue for a bare minimum ACTIVE cost of 4 points before an Limitations.

 

Hm, I'd forgotten to take that into consideration... takes 2" of Flight to fly upwards at 1".

 

Given that, wouldn't 1" Flight, Levitation (-1/2) acheive the effect I initially described? Meaning I can't actually fly upwards, since I can't overcome gravity, but I won't fall. And I can't fly sideways because of the limitation. Although I could decide to fly downwards at 2", which isn't part of the original power description...

 

On the other hand, thinking about deceleration, I think I'd rather go with a heftier amount of Flight, with a "Only to decelerate" limitation, worth at least -1 1/2 (I'd give -2 as a GM... I mean, you can't MOVE with this "movement" power!), maybe adding "No Noncombat Movement" (not needed to simulate the power... can always say he can decelerate faster if he takes CV penalties).

[Kelcyron]

Re: 0" Flight?

 

Reverse the question.

 

How much Flight does it take to move 1" straight up?

 

Answer: at least 2" of Flight

 

Based on that alone I would argue for a bare minimum ACTIVE cost of 4 points before an Limitations.

 

Since Flight comes with a default x2 noncombat multiplier, you could move straight up 1" with only 1" of Flight purchased; you'd just be moving at non-combat speed.

 

Kelcyron

[Sean Waters]

Re: 0" Flight?

 

Even if you do need 2" of flight to cancel 1" of downward movement (and you probably do to be honest - p 364 says 'when working in a direction against gravity, you need 2" of movement to move 1", effectively halving your move rate'), even 1" of flight will allow you to remain unmoving in the air. The rule is not 'you automatically fall 1" per phase'. It is that move rate is effectively halved, so you could only, effectively, (as Hugh and others poitned out) decelerate at 1/2" per phase, if you were already moving down, but if not (or once you have cancelled downward velocity) you could hover.

 

Maximum falling velocity on Earth for a normal human is 30" per segment, or 360" per turn. If you are at teminal velocity, even 20" of flight will mean you need (360/10) = 36 phases to stop falling. That is over a minute for most superheroic characters.

 

Hmm. Blimey.

 

That's the problem with segmented/phase moves. Arguably you are falling 30" on your phase, so you can reduce that by 10" per phase and stop in 3 phases, but that fails to take into considerationt hefact that you are falling (and accelerating) every segment.

 

OK, what does everyone think: how long does it take to decelerate to a stop from terminal velocity if you have 20" flight?

 

Normally, of course, this is not a problem - you would not decelerate, you'd use your turn mode to change vector, and you could do that in a single phase if you had sufficient room, but that is not what I'm asking here: how long will actual deceleration take?

[Hyper-Man]

Re: 0" Flight?

 

OK, what does everyone think: how long does it take to decelerate to a stop from terminal velocity if you have 20" flight?

 

African or European...

 

What's the character's SPD?

 

Once we know that we can figure out their per/Turn and per/Segment movement so we can compare 'apples to apples'.

[Comic]

Re: 0" Flight?

 

OK' date=' what does everyone think: how long does it take to decelerate to a stop from terminal velocity if you have 20" flight?[/quote']

 

Not long. The segment you hit the ground, you stop.

 

If you have Megascale movement, then it's only going to take you one phase to cancel a terminal velocity fall.

 

If you have Teleport with No Relative Velocity, you also cancel downward movement in one phase.

 

If it's 20" and you don't mind Noncombat penalties, then you can accelerate 5" per inch of movement until you reach your maximum flight speed (halved, for upward). Since you're going so incredibly fast at terminal velocity, it's unlikely you will take more than one phase to reach your maximum noncombat speed.

 

If this is the standard 2x combat speed, that's the 18th phase after you start decelerating. (A fair reason to invest in a couple of noncombat multiples.)

 

If you can use your Turn Mode to change direction and bleed off velocity, ie you can fly fast enough to make this a controlled flight instead of a fall (you need enough noncombat multiples to go 30"/segment), then it takes three evenly spaced turns (one phase) to be heading upward again, so you can now slow at twice the rate (1" of downward movement gives you 2"). Which means you pretty much stop in under 2 phases.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: 0" Flight?

 

At the risk of undercomplicating the question, if I am flying, I don't also fall.

 

With that in mind, I would approach the deceleration question from the perspective that, once the Flight is activated, you only need to cancel existing falling velocity. No further falling acceleration will occur.

 

As such, the character with 20" Flight who awakens in mid-air, at terminal velocity [30"], would activate his flight, and decelerate 10" in one phase [velocity now 20"]. As he is now flying, he does not further accelerate downwards. In his next phase, he can cancel another 10" downward velocity, and his third phase allows him to cancel the last 10" downward velocity.

 

He could go noncombat to cancel 20" per phase. IIRC, you can accelerate to full combat velocity in one phase, then add that amount in each subsequent phase to your maximum multiple, so 20" would cancel 10" velocity in the first phase, and 20" (since you now have a 40" noncombat move) in the second phase.

 

That 1" of Fight will require 60 phases of deceleration, 31 if he goes noncombat (the first still getting only 1" velocity).

[Vestnik]

Re: 0" Flight?

 

How about 1" Teleport, Position Shift, No Relative Velocity, Triggered (when character begins to fall), Only to the Same Location?

[Sean Waters]

Re: 0" Flight?

 

African or European...

 

What's the character's SPD?

 

Once we know that we can figure out their per/Turn and per/Segment movement so we can compare 'apples to apples'.

 

Coconuts to coconuts, surely?

 

Let us assume a SPD of 6.

 

That would give a total 'move up' per turn of 6 x (20/2) or 60", or 6 turns to cancel 360" of downward velocity. if that is the right way to do the calculation.

[Sean Waters]

Re: 0" Flight?

 

Not long. The segment you hit the ground, you stop.

........................

 

 

 

As to the rest of the post, well, yes, there are all sorts of different ways that you can stop, and you ennumerate them beautifully. I'm going to reply to Hugh and maybe address some of the points below.

[Sean Waters]

Re: 0" Flight?

 

At the risk of undercomplicating the question, if I am flying, I don't also fall.

 

With that in mind, I would approach the deceleration question from the perspective that, once the Flight is activated, you only need to cancel existing falling velocity. No further falling acceleration will occur.

 

As such, the character with 20" Flight who awakens in mid-air, at terminal velocity [30"], would activate his flight, and decelerate 10" in one phase [velocity now 20"]. As he is now flying, he does not further accelerate downwards. In his next phase, he can cancel another 10" downward velocity, and his third phase allows him to cancel the last 10" downward velocity.

 

He could go noncombat to cancel 20" per phase. IIRC, you can accelerate to full combat velocity in one phase, then add that amount in each subsequent phase to your maximum multiple, so 20" would cancel 10" velocity in the first phase, and 20" (since you now have a 40" noncombat move) in the second phase.

 

That 1" of Fight will require 60 phases of deceleration, 31 if he goes noncombat (the first still getting only 1" velocity).

 

You oversimplifier you

 

Actually this is probably the official answer to the problem but highlights (in a way I have not previously thought of) the phase/segment move dichotomy. After phase 1 you are falling (but not accelerating) at 20", after phase 2 at 10" and after phase 3 not at all.

[Sean Waters]

Re: 0" Flight?

 

How about 1" Teleport' date=' Position Shift, No Relative Velocity, Triggered (when character begins to fall), Only to the Same Location?[/quote']

 

 

Never mind all the damn philosophy, solve the problem

 

As you (and Comic) point out, teleport comes with a handy way to cancel velocity, so here is an 'instant stop falling power' (I'm SOOOO good at naming stuff ). OK it is pretty expensive at 30 points, but then it works whenever you are falling, even if you are unconscious and out of END. Take away the reduced END and the trigger and the whole thing becomes a measly 12 points. Bargain. Actually a bit more expensive because you cannot technically use two movement modes, so if you had to activate manually you'd TP, stop moving, then start falling until your next phase when you activate flight. So, 14 points then, witht he trigger still in place (only the trigegr is now 'when teleport to cancel velocity). Still a bargain.

[size=3][size=3][font=Times New Roman]Instant Stop Falling Power  [/font][/size]
[size=3][font=Times New Roman]6          1)   Flight 1", Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Persistent (+1/2), Trigger (Activating the Trigger is an Action that takes no time, Trigger resets automatically, immediately after it activates; +1) (6 Active Points)  0[/font][/size]
[font='Times New Roman']24        2)   Teleportation 1", No Relative Velocity, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Trigger (Activating the Trigger is an Action that takes no time, Trigger resets automatically, immediately after it activates; +1) (30 Active Points); Must Pass Through Intervening Space (-1/4)            0[/font]

[font='Times New Roman']

[/font][/size]

[Warp9]

Re: 0" Flight?

 

Actually, in my perfect idea of a game, a wingless flier would have the fact that he needs to counter gravity built into the definition of the flight power. Such a flying character would need to buy at least 1 g of acceleration, just to hover. This way of doing things would also allow for a kind of "minimum buy in" for flight that could take into consideration the fact that flight is more useful than something like running.

 

Although to do things accurately you'd have to look at vector addition. 2g's acceleration would allow for going straight up at 1g (with 1 g going to resist gravity), but character with 1.4g's acc (a diagonal 1.41g vector) would allow for 1g to resist gravity, and 1g for horizontal motion.

 

Which is basically what the rules say now, although the difference between going straight up and going horizontal would become less and less as the acceleration increases.

 

At 2g's the character could go straight up at 1g, or resist the pull of gravity and go horizontal at 1.73g's.

 

While at 10g's the character could do 9gs acc straight up, or do a bit more than 9g's on a horizontal plane while resisting the pull of gravity.

[Warp9]

Re: 0" Flight?

 

He could go noncombat to cancel 20" per phase. IIRC, you can accelerate to full combat velocity in one phase, then add that amount in each subsequent phase to your maximum multiple, so 20" would cancel 10" velocity in the first phase, and 20" (since you now have a 40" noncombat move) in the second phase.

 

That 1" of Fight will require 60 phases of deceleration, 31 if he goes noncombat (the first still getting only 1" velocity).

 

I do agree that according to the rules the character should not have to deal with downward acceleration due to gravity.

 

But, on the non-combat velocity thing, I'm not sure I'd agree with the idea that it would help any.

 

I'd describe acceleration as the ability to change velocity. And that is what we are looking at here, a character is moving at 30" per segment, and he wants to change that to 0" per segment.

 

Having a high amount of non-combat velocity does not mean that the character has any greater acceleration, it just means that the character has a greater limit to the max velocity that he can achieve, it does not mean he can get there any faster.

 

The same thing applies to subtracting velocity, only, in this case max total velocity is IMO irrelevant.

[Sean Waters]

Re: 0" Flight?

 

Actually, in my perfect idea of a game, a wingless flier would have the fact that he needs to counter gravity built into the definition of the flight power. Such a flying character would need to buy at least 1 g of acceleration, just to hover. This way of doing things would also allow for a kind of "minimum buy in" for flight that could take into consideration the fact that flight is more useful than something like running.

 

Although to do things accurately you'd have to look at vector addition. 2g's acceleration would allow for going straight up at 1g (with 1 g going to resist gravity), but character with 1.4g's acc (a diagonal 1.41g vector) would allow for 1g to resist gravity, and 1g for horizontal motion.

 

Which is basically what the rules say now, although the difference between going straight up and going horizontal would become less and less as the acceleration increases.

 

At 2g's the character could go straight up at 1g, or resist the pull of gravity and go horizontal at 1.73g's.

 

While at 10g's the character could do 9gs acc straight up, or do a bit more than 9g's on a horizontal plane while resisting the pull of gravity.

 

 

I love this. I want this in 6th edition. I also want a new brain with some sort of major graphics chip and HeroPlay software installed

 

You forgot air resistance

 

No, really, I do love this, and the fact that the movement chapter would be almost as long as 5ER is now and require A level phyics is irrelevant.

 

Do it Steve. We have faith!

 

GM: OK guys, combat commences: phase 12, DEX 29, it's your go, Human Missile.

 

Gaming group: *SIGH*

 

Human Missile: Cool. I'm thinking about a move through.

 

GM: Oh Good Lord. OK, everyone, same time next week.