Rinse and repeat

[Sean Waters]

Here's a question for you.

 

Whilst flexibility is all very nice, I'm not sure Hero encourages it. For example, you buy yourself 5 levels with punch and (say) +4d6 HtH with punch, your punch is awesome and, because you've only bought it for punch, cheap.

 

If all you ever do is punch, punch, punch, you'll be effective in combat, despite the fact that you are, in fact, desperately predictable and pretty much anyone should be able to work out a strategy to defeat you in seconds.

 

Unless the GM wants to strain reality by having you spend most of your time with your hands tied up, or go the whole hog and have them cut off, you're a pugilistic powerhouse. That or all your opponents turn out to be wrestlers who grab your wrists and won't let go.

 

Anyway, the question: have you enountered this as a problem, the one shot wonder, and what can you do about it without straining credibility or out and out picking on the character? OK that was more than one question, and the answer is probably 'No, I vet characters properly', but I'm wondering if there is not a slightly less trite way to encourage combat variation.

[casualplayer]

Re: Rinse and repeat

 

Were this my player, I would address it in game.

 

Punches are High Shots unless there is some terrain discrepancy, so the very common Helmet & Torso body armor will almost always be effective against his main attack leaving the player vulnerable to agent swarm. There is the limitation of only being as effective as the length of his arm. Grab and Entangle would make this player soil himself. I would confront the player with situations that play to the implied Disadvantages he took by buying HA and effectively limited Levels; disadvantages that don't disadvantage the player aren't worth points, and all....

 

One-trick ponies get rode hard and put up wet in my games.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Rinse and repeat

 

Sean,

 

Are you familiar with Mixed Martial Arts?

 

If you're asking how a Traditional Boxer* would do in that arena the answer is that they would get grabbed or kicked and lose every time.

 

*Assuming roughly the same overall TOTAL amount of points dedicated to combat characteristics, CSL's, MA's and/or HA's.

[Utech]

Re: Rinse and repeat

 

There may or may not be a problem here. And that will really depend on your point of view.

 

From my point of view...

 

One Problem

The player is interested in making the most efficient combat machine possible. Their focus is on min-maxing, working the numbers, and they don't give a fig about character development or storytelling.

My solution: Discuss with the player what we want out of this game. Explain that I am most interested in telling a good story. If we cannot work out our differences, go our separate ways.

 

Another Problem

The player is interested in character development and storytelling. They don't give a fig about combat and have created a character that is simple to run when their character must fight.

My solution: Discuss with the player what we want out of this game. Explain that I am very happy about the way he is playing his character outside of combat and suggest that we gin up a list of alternative words to "punch". Instead of always saying, "I punch him", he can use other words to describe what is mechanically the same thing. He can kick, slap, headbutt, elbow strike, club with both hands, backhand, etc.

 

Problems problems(?) everywhere

Of course there might be a million other problems here. Or, in fact, no problem at all. If all involved like to keep things simple, then all is well.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Rinse and repeat

 

Gee, Sean, I thought this topic sounded kinda familiar : http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30694

 

My own suggestion for dealing with this is on Post #10 from above.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Rinse and repeat

 

Ranged Attack - ANY!

 

Too bad his levels don't apply to thrown weapons of opportunity.

 

Opponent with Very High PD (or Physical Damage Reduction) - but not much defense vs Energy attacks.

 

A half-way decent GM should be able to demonstrate the folly of the one-shot wonder in his sleep.

[Steve]

Re: Rinse and repeat

 

One-trick ponies tend to be self-correcting in my experience. If other characters are spending experience points to expand their capabilities to do "cool things" in combat, one-trick types tend to get boring for the player of the one-trick pony.

[Kdansky]

Re: Rinse and repeat

 

I encountered the problem, because we were playing low powered with a high AP limit. Suddenly, it did not make sense to buy two attacks (was nearly unaffordable anyway), and so my HKA character mopped the floor with nearly anything. It leads to another problem: Hero *needs* AP limits. And AP limits are very boring: hey look, everyone has OCV/DCV 7 and does either 15d6, 10d6 AP, 5d6 hka +str or 5d6 rka. Wow, how awesome! We are so different!

 

We tried a rather complicated houserule: Every AP over 20 costs 1.5, every AP over 40 costs twice.

 

Result? Complicated Math (99% of the cases can easily be solved in excel though, only Frameworks are really tricky), everyone taking a lot of limitations on their attacks to be able to pay the points and else not much of a change. Perhaps a progressive formula would work better, but that would be awfully complicated to calculate.

 

Also:

Actually I haven't seen kdansky around for a few days. Wonder what he's up to?

 

Installing Leopard + Bootcamp + Vista on his Mac. Now it's running, but it felt like Win95 :/ Driver problems, random crashes, data loss (well, at least I did backups before starting, so I did not really lose anything yet).

[casualplayer]

Re: Rinse and repeat

 

One-trick ponies tend to be self-correcting in my experience. If other characters are spending experience points to expand their capabilities to do "cool things" in combat' date=' one-trick types tend to get boring for the player of the one-trick pony.[/quote']

 

 

And actually this type of character, when they get a clue, does actually "grow" really well as they use XP to turn Punch levels into HTH or All Combat Levels. It's really when they are only interested in being a Rock Em Sock Em Robot that they hamper a campaign.

[Kdansky]

Re: Rinse and repeat

 

I completely forgot: It might be easy to stop a punch-one-trick pony with entangles, range or similar. But what do you do against: "RKA - I r shoot lazer beamz teh eyes?". There is really not much you can do against a solid ranged Killing attack (well, desolid and damage reduction, but that is very useful against 90% of all attacks too). Immunity against the special effect is really not a good way, darkness stops anyone and even force walls against the stun won't work due to RKAs high body damage.

 

Yes, this is (again) also a KA problem (KA is numerically a lot better than EB, we all know it). Less predictable result is nearly always in favour of the attacker.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Rinse and repeat

 

I completely forgot: It might be easy to stop a punch-one-trick pony with entangles' date=' range or similar. But what do you do against: "RKA - I r shoot lazer beamz teh eyes?". There is really not much you can do against a solid ranged Killing attack (well, desolid and damage reduction, but that is very useful against 90% of all attacks too). Immunity against the special effect is really not a good way, darkness stops anyone and even force walls against the stun won't work due to RKAs high body damage.[/quote']

 

Said "lazer beams teh eyes shootr" likely won't enjoy the first Missile Deflecting/Reflecting opponent he comes up against.

[BNakagawa]

Re: Rinse and repeat

 

I am playing a character that would give OneTrickPonyMan fits.

 

Base defenses are actually garbage, lowest of all currently played PCs in the game.

 

However, my PC has a force field that reflexively responds to attacks and the skill to adjust defensive posture to react to attacks.

 

How it's built: +5/+5 force field 0end, based on the main force field that only applies to attacks that have hit it before, must be aware of attack.

 

+2 lvls DCV that only apply to attacks that have hit before, must be aware of attack.

 

Add something like a Analyze: combat skill and OneTrickPonyMan has his work cut out for him.

 

You can build multiple levels of structures like this. +5/+5 only after two hits from the same attack or +2 DCV only after two attacks have landed.

 

Stuff like this encourages versatility.

[Kdansky]

Re: Rinse and repeat

 

Well, not really. My 5d6 H/R-KA will cut through a meager 5 PD/ED FF like an overcharged lightsaber through pre-melted butter. So you're taking 35 stun instead of 40, big deal. And the disadvantage on it is rather measly anyway.

"Does not work against the first attack", that's what? -1/2 tops (depending on your average fight length, of course, would be 1/2 or 1/4 with me)? It's not something that makes the defense better, but just something that saves some points. Limitations don't bother OTP much...

 

And yes, I forgot about missile deflection, but especially against Lazor-Beamz-From Eyez-ShootR-TM that is not an obvious or good counter. You need all adders in the book to even get to roll, and OTP might just have something to prevent the one good defense from working, like spending a bazillion of points in OCV. And we *are* talking about someone with lots of OCV, aren't we? Spending 40 points on MD is like having a 20/20 FF in addition to your normal defenses. Anyone will have trouble with this, but OTP is not bothered much with his OCV of ~37'000 (give or take a few).

Since we still have points to spare on OTP, you can easily add support for your one trick, like find weakness (free Armor Piercing! Active Point Limit Break! (Final Fantasy anyone?)) or just a hijillion of CVs.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Rinse and repeat

 

How much of the laser problem is caused by the fact he's a one trick pony, and how much from the Stun Multiple? There are lots of threads suggesting ways to smooth out the Stun Multiple. Alternatively, Ive built characters in the past that had Damage Reduction applied only to KA's that has a greater percentage if the Stun Multiple roll is higher.

 

As for a scenario to frustrate Mr. Laser Eyes...

 

Mind Control against civilian targets. Go ahead and Laser Eye your girlfriend, the mayor and all those innocent civilians. Most one trick ponies are very much tricked out for combat. Give them a problem they can't solve by beating it up.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Rinse and repeat

 

And yes, I forgot about missile deflection, but especially against Lazor-Beamz-From Eyez-ShootR-TM that is not an obvious or good counter. You need all adders in the book to even get to roll, and OTP might just have something to prevent the one good defense from working, like spending a bazillion of points in OCV. And we *are* talking about someone with lots of OCV, aren't we? Spending 40 points on MD is like having a 20/20 FF in addition to your normal defenses. Anyone will have trouble with this, but OTP is not bothered much with his OCV of ~37'000 (give or take a few).

Since we still have points to spare on OTP, you can easily add support for your one trick, like find weakness (free Armor Piercing! Active Point Limit Break! (Final Fantasy anyone?)) or just a hijillion of CVs.

 

Having all the necessary adders to Missile Deflection is common in the supers genre, which I assume is what this OTP is intended for. They're a lot cheaper than a hefty RKA, too. And frankly, if the OTP has a Killing Attack and OCV far superior to other characters in the game, I would call that an oversight by the Game Master in vetting the character. Just because a character has the points to spare, doesn't mean he should be allowed to munchkinize.

 

IME the problem isn't necessarily that a character has one maximized attack, but that if he has one particularly effective attack form there's no reason for him not to keep using it time after time, aside from a desire to roleplay combat variety to keep it interesting. Some players focussed on winning require a game-mechanic incentive to change tactics. That was the point of my "Predictable Move" suggestion on the other thread.

[BNakagawa]

Re: Rinse and repeat

 

Well, not really. My 5d6 H/R-KA will cut through a meager 5 PD/ED FF like an overcharged lightsaber through pre-melted butter. So you're taking 35 stun instead of 40, big deal. And the disadvantage on it is rather measly anyway.

"Does not work against the first attack", that's what? -1/2 tops (depending on your average fight length, of course, would be 1/2 or 1/4 with me)? It's not something that makes the defense better, but just something that saves some points. Limitations don't bother OTP much...

 

And yes, I forgot about missile deflection, but especially against Lazor-Beamz-From Eyez-ShootR-TM that is not an obvious or good counter. You need all adders in the book to even get to roll, and OTP might just have something to prevent the one good defense from working, like spending a bazillion of points in OCV. And we *are* talking about someone with lots of OCV, aren't we? Spending 40 points on MD is like having a 20/20 FF in addition to your normal defenses. Anyone will have trouble with this, but OTP is not bothered much with his OCV of ~37'000 (give or take a few).

Since we still have points to spare on OTP, you can easily add support for your one trick, like find weakness (free Armor Piercing! Active Point Limit Break! (Final Fantasy anyone?)) or just a hijillion of CVs.

 

It is foolish to fixate on the implementation and ignore the theory behind the concept.

 

+5/+5 is what I could get away with in a campaign with lower power levels. In a game with 75 AP attacks, you might be able to get 25% damage reduction only after the first hit, 50% damage reduction after the first two hits and 75% damage reduction after the first three. If OTP rolls poorly on the first hit, he may be SOL.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Rinse and repeat

 

Gee, Sean, I thought this topic sounded kinda familiar : http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30694

 

My own suggestion for dealing with this is on Post #10 from above.

 

 

I'm pretty sure this is the third time I've posted this question over the years. It is an interesting exercise to see if you can get the same people into completely different stances on it