Fromage?

[nexus]

Re: Fromage?

 

Reread END Reserve' date=' Adjustment Powers both positive and negative affect the END and Rec of the Reserve as they would the coresponding stat. So Draining 10 points of the End Reserve causes a lost of 20 END, not 100. Draining 10 points of the Rec will decrease it by 5, not 1.[/quote']

 

Oops, sorry! It's a House Rule I've used so long I just assume it's the default nowadays.

 

But I am interested in the sfx for this set up. Personally, I'd be leery of it but if there was a strong concept I'd be willing to look it over.

[caris]

Re: Fromage?

 

Mmmmmmm... real cheesy goodness...

 

just kidding...

 

I really don't have a problem with it so far... but do need to see the hdc sheet to get a final idea of the mechanics of the character as a whole...

 

That is a given. Mainly it serves to save points I've dropped some limitations, restructure some of the other powers to include new options (definitely think I have a GM permission one I need you to look at), expanded the lifesupport, add a Disarm manuever. Actually reduced total PD, kept damage potential the same.

 

Also, keep in mind item #3 from the Wardens campaign "basic guidelines for building characters"

 

"Be careful in your choice of powers and how they are constructed. That that you have will also be that of the adversary... and then some."

 

OK, I'm more concerned about you throwing a character with twice my combat movement, 75% PD Damage Reduction and AOE on their 20 STR against us (can you say 20½D6 Move Through that at most only does ¼ damage to the attacker? My character can only generate an 11D6 Move Through and only has 25% PD DR), than having them sell back their regular END to buy an END Reserve. This is just a point saving cheese. I assume that the NPC can have however many points they need to do what you want them to do.

[Sundansyr]

Re: Fromage?

 

 

- not lose his END or stop recovering it if knocked out

 

- not be able to recover END by taking a recovery during his phase

 

 

Hmmm, something I haven't read yet in the 5er rulebook...

 

If I have, say, a power suit or whatnot with an END reserve, does all of that END go poof when my power suit guy takes a tencount?

How would I define it, advantage wise, so that his END is not lost when he gets KO'd? What sort of REC do I buy for it (certainly not the normal REC if the suit is independant of the pilot)? Would the suit make its recoveries normally while the char is KO?

 

How could I purchase powers persistant yet still burn END while the pilot is unconscious (such as flight, FF, ect ect?) where 'continuous' does not work... or would it?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Fromage?

 

END Reserves do not, under the rules, drop to 0 when a Character is Unconscious. You cannot Take A Recovery to have the END of an END Reserve Recover. END Reserves Recover only Post-12 or under pre-defined conditions.

[caris]

Re: Fromage?

 

But I am interested in the sfx for this set up. Personally' date=' I'd be leery of it but if there was a strong concept I'd be willing to look it over.[/quote']

 

I gave a brief summary up thread. I'll expand a bit. The character went through a process to gain super powers. As a result of this process he thought that he had started to generate an energy that he was able to manipulate to produce a protective field, and with the help of some technology to fly. Well, the reality is that he is not generating the energy. He is absorbing the energy, and as the mutation have continued his body now uses that energy to survive and function, not the normal biochemical process that the human body does. In addition to what he did before some things have changed. He no longer needs to eat or breathe. He still has to sleep, but that is more for his psyche than for his body. He is now more resistant to the harmful effects of energy. No longer needs the technology to fly.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Fromage?

 

Found a few more characters that sold back their END:

 

The highest pointed one is a second tier Master Villain Mr. Roboto (another Robot), another is ERG-9 (a permanent energy body character), another high pointer second or third tier Master Villain Gentlemen Jim (a ghost), and Rook has sold back most but not all of his END to reflect his almost total reliance on his TK powers -- he never has to physically exert himself under normal circumstances really, and Magnitude is an uber brick that never gets tired.

[GMumford]

Re: Fromage?

 

What about that one additional point of END for each Combat Manuever performed? If you get in a fight and don't have an appropriate Martial Manuever with 0 END it comes out of STUN.

What would you advantage to get that to come from the END Reserve?

[nexus]

Re: Fromage?

 

I gave a brief summary up thread.

 

I missed it, sorry

 

I'll expand a bit. The character went through a process to gain super powers. As a result of this process he thought that he had started to generate an energy that he was able to manipulate to produce a protective field, and with the help of some technology to fly. Well, the reality is that he is not generating the energy. He is absorbing the energy, and as the mutation have continued his body now uses that energy to survive and function, not the normal biochemical process that the human body does. In addition to what he did before some things have changed. He no longer needs to eat or breathe. He still has to sleep, but that is more for his psyche than for his body. He is now more resistant to the harmful effects of energy. No longer needs the technology to fly.

 

Neat concept! I'm still not sure about the build though. Something feels "off" about it and I can't quite put my finger on just what it is. I think part of it is I'm wonder why, aside from concept, everyone should do this? The characters get much more Endurance more cheaply, doesn't lose it if he's knocked out and still recovers when he is. He can’t take Recoveries and the end for Recovery is 1 point more expensive. IIRC, canonically, he can still Push and he’ll have roughly 5 times more Endurance compared to a character that pays the same points for regular Endurance.

 

Ok, IME, taking Recoveries in the middle of combat is very rare, not unheard of but rare but many characters have found themselves in dire straits when they were knocked out and lost most of their Endurance when they woke up. If your campaign doesn’t have a limit (mechanical or otherwise) on Pushing this character could do it with less risk than a normal character.

 

Speaking for myself, the Endurance Reserve would have to be constructed in a way where there was some limitation or consequence for having it (My House rule about Endurance Reserves and negative adjustment powers aside) before I’d allow it. I don’t think I’d allow him to sell back his Personal Endurance. Maybe, since the Energy his End reserve represents is keeping him alive, he’s Susceptible to having it low or empty?

 

At the risk of derailing... just why IS Endurance Reserve so massively cheap? I’ve never really thought about it before (almost no one in my games get it). Getting 50 points of "normal" Endurance is 25 points, 5 points in an Endurance Reserve.

[caris]

Re: Fromage?

 

What about that one additional point of END for each Combat Manuever performed? If you get in a fight and don't have an appropriate Martial Manuever with 0 END it comes out of STUN.

What would you advantage to get that to come from the END Reserve?

 

It is a rule that none of my GMs have ever enforced it didn't occure to me. However, given it is listed for actions that do not have STR associated with them, like Dodge, Block or firing a weapon, it would seem to represent the use of STR and/or Movement Powers at some base level, and that the modifier already applied to those abilities would apply to that rule as well.

[Comic]

Re: Fromage?

 

There's also the drowning rules, and I think a few other END-requirements and conditions that will hit the character's Stun.

 

It does add up quicker than one expects, too, burning Stun for END. You've after all become your own enemy, for the purpose of taking damage.

[nexus]

Re: Fromage?

 

There's also the drowning rules, and I think a few other END-requirements and conditions that will hit the character's Stun.

 

I think Caris mentioned the character will have Life Support which should cover most of those issues.

[caris]

Re: Fromage?

 

I think Caris mentioned the character will have Life Support which should cover most of those issues.

 

Yes, the character will be independently space worthy if the changes go through.

[nexus]

Re: Fromage?

 

Crosshaircollie pointed out something important. Selling off your Endurance would be a bad idea. If the character is hit with an Endurance Drain, he is going to be "forced" to burn Stun for the Endurance he doesn't have....

 

One good END Drain, however, and you're hosed.

 

4d6 END Drain = 14 (average) = 28 END 'spent' you don't have = 14d6 damage no defense at all = good night.

[caris]

Re: Fromage?

 

Crosshaircollie pointed out something important. Selling off your Endurance would be a bad idea. If the character is hit with an Endurance Drain' date=' he is going to be "forced" to burn Stun for the Endurance he doesn't have....[/quote']

 

Nope, there was a question to Steve about that a couple of years ago.

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15163

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15180

It is the actual act of using a power that uses END that causes "STUN Burn", just being at 0 or negative END does not cause it.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Fromage?

 

What about that one additional point of END for each Combat Manuever performed? If you get in a fight and don't have an appropriate Martial Manuever with 0 END it comes out of STUN.

What would you advantage to get that to come from the END Reserve?

 

That's a GM's discretion ruling, and even if in effect is only applicable to Maneuvers that don't already have a listed STR value. Martial Maneuvers never cost END.

 

Personally, I don't care for the extra bookkeeping and have never applied this rule. Even if I did, I would consider a character that paid for 0 END on their STR to be exempt from it.

[MorpheousXO]

Re: Fromage?

 

Saw the title of this, and figured you'd either be talking about cheese or a '70's wizard.

 

Sorry, nothing important to add, sounds interesting though (and yes I did actually read everything before posting this).

[pinecone]

Re: Fromage?

 

OK, I'm thinking about taking a character that has an END Reserve (that already has full life support), and making it so that all of his END using powers (including STR, Running and Swimming) draw from either the reserve or his personal END. No problem so far.

 

Potential cheese: I'm thinking about selling back the personal END to 0. Basically, I want the character to survive off the END Reserve, but still able to burn STUN.

 

What do you think too much cheese?

 

(I'm going to direct the GM to this post to get his official word.)

 

Not really seeing the big deal...you Might get all hatey the first time you get hit with aEnd Drain....you got's Zero to start with so going straight to negs seems a little harsh.....

[nexus]

Re: Fromage?

 

Not really seeing the big deal...you Might get all hatey the first time you get hit with aEnd Drain....you got's Zero to start with so going straight to negs seems a little harsh.....

 

That's actually come up. It doesn't do that much to a character like this. His natural Endurance will be negative but since he's not using it it doesn't matter.

[Kdansky]

Re: Fromage?

 

To me it looks cheesy. Although, END Reserve is so much better than normal END anyway, I really don't see the point of it. Basing it of SFX is really bias towards certain ideas. "I'm telekinetic and my powers don't come from my body" vs "I'm telekinetic and using my power exerts me". Somehow the second one is more expensive, but going by description, it actually sounds weaker too.

 

Sure, End reserve makes a lot of sense with limited REC, but not so much with normal REC... But END is generally very expensive for what it does. 1 cp for 2 END which I can usually only use *once* per fight? Not so cheap if my powers burn 4-10 per use (or worse: I have an FF).

[pinecone]

Re: Fromage?

 

That's actually come up. It doesn't do that much to a character like this. His natural Endurance will be negative but since he's not using it it doesn't matter.

 

OK, but don't neg stats hose you in various ways? I'll have to look up END, but I'd guess it does something goofy. It will likely be less lousy than a primary stat, but still.....?

[pinecone]

Re: Fromage?

 

Besrker Fury: Mind Controll: Must push every attack, and attack every phase possable, Lim: Empathic, Fixed: Anger:Beserk fury Muh ha ha ha !

[Sean Waters]

Re: Fromage?

 

OK' date=' but don't neg stats hose you in various ways? I'll have to look up END, but I'd guess it does something goofy. It will likely be less lousy than a primary stat, but still.....?[/quote']

 

There is no special hosing for having negative END.

 

AS tot eh original question, if the character was buying all his END using powers with the +1/4 advantage (can use END reserve or normal END) tehn I'd probably allow it, but be confused as to why you'd want it.

 

If all the powers ran off the END reserve or the campaign rule was that using END reserve or END was a -0, I wouldn't. I mean it is perfectly legal but far too cheesy for me. It is simply a cost break, not a concept being fulfilled. The fact that he doesn't draw END from his body is irrelevant mechanically: the END is coming from somewhere. The 'natural END' could be defined as an energy BODY or an END Reserve could be defined as natural END; what does it accomplish but a cost reduction?

 

Also, on the point about advantaging a MP reserve, again, perfectly rules legal, but I have to wonder why the rule exists: what is it there to do, except further reduce the cost of powers already massively discounted by being in a framework?

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Fromage?

 

If all the powers ran off the END reserve or the campaign rule was that using END reserve or END was a -0, I wouldn't. I mean it is perfectly legal but far too cheesy for me. It is simply a cost break, not a concept being fulfilled. The fact that he doesn't draw END from his body is irrelevant mechanically: the END is coming from somewhere. The 'natural END' could be defined as an energy BODY or an END Reserve could be defined as natural END; what does it accomplish but a cost reduction?

If you do the math, its rarely a net cost reduction in practice, its simply recouping points that aren't being used.

 

Also, on the point about advantaging a MP reserve, again, perfectly rules legal, but I have to wonder why the rule exists: what is it there to do, except further reduce the cost of powers already massively discounted by being in a framework?

It streamlines builds at the cost of loss of flexibility, and the cost discount isn't really a big deal.

 

MP 60 Pool, Some +1/2 Advantage = 90 points

slot 1 base effect 60 AP, inherits Some +1/2 advantage = 6 points

slot 2 base effect 60 AP, inherits Some +1/2 advantage = 6 points

 

total cost = 102

 

MP 90 Pool = 90

slot 1 60 points base effect, any +1/2 advantage = 9

slot 2 60 points base effect, any +1/2 advantage = 9

 

total cost = 108

 

cost difference = 3 points per slot

difference in effect: in version one every slot must have Some +1/2 Advantage, in version two every slot can have a different +1/2 advantage or more base effect or whatever.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Fromage?

 

If you do the math, its rarely a net cost reduction in practice, its simply recouping points that aren't being used.

 

I suppose it depends what your REC is. A reasonably standard 350 point build probably has REC in the region of 12 points, shading up to 18 for a brick, and maybe 50 END, shading up to 60 for a brick.

 

12 REC/50 END in and END reserve costs 17 points and you save 25 selling back your END.

 

18 REC/60 END in an END reserve costs 24 points and you save 30 selling back your END.

 

It streamlines builds at the cost of loss of flexibility, and the cost discount isn't really a big deal.

 

MP 60 Pool, Some +1/2 Advantage = 90 points

slot 1 base effect 60 AP, inherits Some +1/2 advantage = 6 points

slot 2 base effect 60 AP, inherits Some +1/2 advantage = 6 points

 

total cost = 102

 

MP 90 Pool = 90

slot 1 60 points base effect, any +1/2 advantage = 9

slot 2 60 points base effect, any +1/2 advantage = 9

 

total cost = 108

 

cost difference = 3 points per slot

difference in effect: in version one every slot must have Some +1/2 Advantage, in version two every slot can have a different +1/2 advantage or more base effect or whatever.

 

That makes sense although I have to say I've never noticed any particular inclination on the part of Hero to streamlining It might streamline the character sheet a little, but it is another rule that bloats the rule book. Except for applying reduced endurance or megascale, I can't see that there is even a great deal of general applicability for the rule, and, as you point out, the book cautions against allowing the rule to be used with reduced endurance.

 

The cost break, as you say is only small, but to me that makes the rule even more baffling, if the effect is so insignificant.

 

Still, I take your points and I can see that there is some sense to rewarding a framework with increased internal consistency with a small point break.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Fromage?

 

I suppose it depends what your REC is. A reasonably standard 350 point build probably has REC in the region of 12 points, shading up to 18 for a brick, and maybe 50 END, shading up to 60 for a brick.

 

12 REC/50 END in and END reserve costs 17 points and you save 25 selling back your END.

 

18 REC/60 END in an END reserve costs 24 points and you save 30 selling back your END.

 

I was referring more to the case of having applied 0 END to all innate END costing abilities. I agree with you that doing it w/ an END Reserve alone is pretty fringe / metagamed.