Every Myth Is Not True

[OddHat]

Re: Every Myth Is Not True

 

I dunno. I think you could just' date=' as part of your campaign guidelines, say "Mutants and tech-based characters only" and "superhumans have only been around since (insert your cutoff date here)." If someone says he wants to play the great-whatever-grandson of King Arthur, just veto the suggestion 'cause Arthur is only a myth in this setting. I've played and run in games where there were no alternate dimensions or gods or magic, and it was never really a big deal.[/quote']

 

Oh sure, be all minimalist and rational about it.

 

It is worth noting that a fair of game and fictional settings with Superheroes take a simple "Powers come from X" approach, and actively avoid the traditional Everything Was Real approach (Wild Cards, Gestalt, Aberrant, etc).

[Kenn]

Re: Every Myth Is Not True

 

For that matter' date=' I've always liked the ancient Minoan civilization as a candidate for the "real" Atlantis. [/quote']

 

My reply in an Atlantis thread: http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1511690#post1511690

[teh bunneh]

Re: Every Myth Is Not True

 

Oh sure' date=' be all minimalist and rational about it. [/quote']

 

Sorry, I forgot that sort of nonsense isn't allowed on teh intarwebz.

 

Re-reading the OP, it strikes me that perhaps what he is saying is that all the old myths and legends actually are true, it's just that they weren't because of supernatural influences. Zeus and Odin existed, but they weren't gods, they were just really powerful mutants. King Arthur wasn't chosen by the God or Avalon, he was just the age's most kickass warrior. In ancient times, they didn't have the knowledge to explain these things, so they just called it "Magic." Today, we understand that most of that stuff has a scientific explaination.

 

Which, if that's what he wants, sounds like it could make a pretty decent setting. "Mutants have always existed alongside humanity. Sometimes they were seen as gods; sometimes as devils. Today we know that they are merely genetically different than the average man -- but that genetic quirk makes all the difference, changing a normal person into one with incredible power that sets him apart from the rest of humanity. Which will you be -- defender of civilization or the wrath of destruction?"

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Every Myth Is Not True

 

Sorry, I forgot that sort of nonsense isn't allowed on teh intarwebz.

 

Re-reading the OP, it strikes me that perhaps what he is saying is that all the old myths and legends actually are true, it's just that they weren't because of supernatural influences. Zeus and Odin existed, but they weren't gods, they were just really powerful mutants. King Arthur wasn't chosen by the God or Avalon, he was just the age's most kickass warrior. In ancient times, they didn't have the knowledge to explain these things, so they just called it "Magic." Today, we understand that most of that stuff has a scientific explaination.

 

Which, if that's what he wants, sounds like it could make a pretty decent setting. "Mutants have always existed alongside humanity. Sometimes they were seen as gods; sometimes as devils. Today we know that they are merely genetically different than the average man -- but that genetic quirk makes all the difference, changing a normal person into one with incredible power that sets him apart from the rest of humanity. Which will you be -- defender of civilization or the wrath of destruction?"

 

Yes-and-no. Some of it would be outright fiction, some of it would just be exaggeration. I had the thought at work today that Arthur might had magnetic or other metal-manipulating powers, which is why nobody else could pull the Sword from the (Lode)Stone, for example.

 

Atlantis, however, would be an outright fairy tale. You do certainly have the gist of it, though.

[Clonus]

Re: Every Myth Is Not True

 

Sorry, I forgot that sort of nonsense isn't allowed on teh intarwebz.

 

Re-reading the OP, it strikes me that perhaps what he is saying is that all the old myths and legends actually are true, it's just that they weren't because of supernatural influences. Zeus and Odin existed, but they weren't gods, they were just really powerful mutants. King Arthur wasn't chosen by the God or Avalon, he was just the age's most kickass warrior. In ancient times, they didn't have the knowledge to explain these things, so they just called it "Magic." Today, we understand that most of that stuff has a scientific explaination.

 

Which, if that's what he wants, sounds like it could make a pretty decent setting. "Mutants have always existed alongside humanity. Sometimes they were seen as gods; sometimes as devils. Today we know that they are merely genetically different than the average man -- but that genetic quirk makes all the difference, changing a normal person into one with incredible power that sets him apart from the rest of humanity. :rockon:Which will you be -- defender of civilization or the wrath of destruction?"

 

In the romance novel series that started with Aphrodite's Girdle the superheroes (who currently work in secret but despite that wear capes because one of them invented antigravity flight capes) are the hidden reality behind Greek mythology. At one time they were worshipped as gods and goddesses but when Zeus died, they adopted a lower profile. Despite that they did have one of them who like to fly around at Christmas and give toys to children, and the modern image of a comic book superhero is inspired by humans who caught a glimpse of another one in action.

[McCoy]

Re: Every Myth Is Not True

 

Something that filters through my cerebellum from time to time is the concept of running a superhero game in a universe where every myth and folk tale is not true; most of them are outright wrong, with a few attributed to more 'mundane' aspects.

 

For example, in 4E Champs universe, there was a kind of 'vampire' that was just a mutant who could only subsist on potassium; they tended to be pale, psionically active, and of course, drank blood. While these were alongside traditional vampires in the CU, in the world I'm contemplating, that would have been the only 'real' vampire, though the rather limited intellects of the Dark Ages would have conflated them into what we call the 'traditional' vampire myths nowadays. Vlad Tepes might have existed, and been one of these vampires ... but he was alive, not undead, and couldn't generate more vampires.

 

No magic, of course. At all.

 

King Arthur, if he existed, was just a guy, and Excalibur was just a pigsticker. Merlin, say, was at best a psychic, at worst merely a charlatan. There was no Atlantis, but there could be a Loch Ness monster, but it would be a mutated lizard, not a mythical beast or timelost plesiosaur.

 

I'm pondering taking the Star Trek route and have the various pantheons instead be aliens, even though there's no concrete evidence of alien life, either ... I'm vacillating on that one.

 

Basically, for every mythological entry, I'd need to figure out if it was just a story, or if it had some basis in fact, and if the latter, exactly what it was. Unfortunately, considering the sheer amount of 'Fantasy Kitchen Sink'-ing that most superhero games do ... that's a lot of stuff, even if you consider the aspects of it that regularly crop up in USA-based supers games.

 

The question, of course, is 'is it worth the effort'? It would create more focus, in a way, since you wouldn't have mages and mutants and aliens and all poking around at the same time. On the other hand, it stifles a lot of common plot elements.

 

Thoughts (and other ideas for things I'd need to account for)?

What I'm finding strange is that you'd be throwing out magic, but keeping psionics.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Every Myth Is Not True

 

What I'm finding strange is that you'd be throwing out magic' date=' but keeping psionics.[/quote']

 

Why? They're completely different, at least in far as 'mutant psionic powers' makes sense to me and 'mutant magical powers', well, don't.

[OddHat]

Re: Every Myth Is Not True

 

Why? They're completely different' date=' at least in far as 'mutant psionic powers' makes sense to me and 'mutant magical powers', well, don't.[/quote']

 

"Psionics are magic in a new bottle."

 

Not that there's anything wrong with choosing your bottles. I've always run with the idea that Magic, Psionics and Miracles were three ways of describing the same phenomena.

[OddHat]

Re: Every Myth Is Not True

 

In the romance novel series that started with Aphrodite's Girdle the superheroes (who currently work in secret but despite that wear capes because one of them invented antigravity flight capes) are the hidden reality behind Greek mythology. At one time they were worshipped as gods and goddesses but when Zeus died' date=' they adopted a lower profile. Despite that they did have one of them who like to fly around at Christmas and give toys to children, and the modern image of a comic book superhero is inspired by humans who caught a glimpse of another one in action.[/quote']

 

Who's the author? Amazon isn't coming up with a hit on that title, and it sounds like a series SatinKitty would enjoy.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Every Myth Is Not True

 

"Psionics are magic in a new bottle."

 

Not that there's anything wrong with choosing your bottles. I've always run with the idea that Magic, Psionics and Miracles were three ways of describing the same phenomena.

 

I tend to think of them as completely separate. I wouldn't have a Drain vs Psionics affect a magician, because his special effect is Magic, not Psionics.

[Clonus]

Re: Every Myth Is Not True

 

Why? They're completely different' date=' at least in far as 'mutant psionic powers' makes sense to me and 'mutant magical powers', well, don't.[/quote']

 

Yes, but that's just a difference of flavour. Psi is a pseudoscientific justification for magic. Thus in flavour it matches nicely with the pseudoscience of mutant superpowers. That's why leaving magic out doesn't make much difference.

[McCoy]

Re: Every Myth Is Not True

 

Why? They're completely different' date=' at least in far as 'mutant psionic powers' makes sense to me and 'mutant magical powers', well, don't.[/quote']

They both seem legendary to me. Never seen convincing evidence for the existance of either.

 

[edit] Psionics are "grandfathered" in Science Fiction because John Campbell (who coined the word IIRC) believed they existed. AFAICT he was wrong.

[OddHat]

Re: Every Myth Is Not True

 

I tend to think of them as completely separate. I wouldn't have a Drain vs Psionics affect a magician' date=' because his special effect is Magic, not Psionics.[/quote']

 

Again, depends on how you look at them. One man prays / bargains with the spirits to gain the power of flight, another lifts himself with the power of his mind; how we choose to describe the unreal but dramatically useful is mostly a matter of flavor. And again, I'm not suggesting my preferred flavor has to be anyone else's.

 

David Gemmel's take is my own preferred standard; there are powers of the human mind that some people can access much more strongly than others. There are disciplines one can learn to focus these abilities, and drugs and devices that can enhance them. There are also non-physical and extra-dimensional entities that can be contacted by and bargained with using these abilities. One person might call these abilities Magic, another Psionics, and a third Miracles; all three may be correct, from a certain point of view.

[Clonus]

Re: Every Myth Is Not True

 

Who's the author? Amazon isn't coming up with a hit on that title' date=' and it sounds like a series SatinKitty would enjoy. [/quote']

 

 

Sorry, Aphrodite's Passion by Julie Kenner

[OddHat]

Re: Every Myth Is Not True

 

Sorry' date=' Aphrodite's Passion by Julie Kenner[/quote']

 

Thanks, I'll check it out.

[Certified]

Re: Every Myth Is Not True

 

Fun with Psychics

 

Enough history to kill a horse ...

 

From six miles away with only a clipping from the mane.

 

Did a quick search, you can google the people and events they talk about in the article. Since it looks like this is from an archive to dig deeper you may need to. I just want to know how many character points a tin foil hat costs.

 

- - -

 

In most champion games I tend to go with as long as the end effect is the same describe it how you want, super science, psionics, magic take your pick. That said with the 6th World Setting I took a lot of time to make sure that there was a clear difference between the two both in the feel, game play and core mechanics so that either would add flavor to the over all character.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Every Myth Is Not True

 

They both seem legendary to me. Never seen convincing evidence for the existance of either.

 

[edit] Psionics are "grandfathered" in Science Fiction because John Campbell (who coined the word IIRC) believed they existed. AFAICT he was wrong.

 

Agreed, but nobody's ever shouted 'flame on' and become surrounded in an aura of fire and flown away, either. It's still a superhero game, so superpowers, by definition, have to work, and psychic supers are (relatively) commonplace. The primary difference is that not just anybody can sit down, contemplate their navels, and become a psychic; you have to either be a mutant or have a power-inducing circumstance.

 

I can see a random mutation or radiation exposure or genetic tampering creating a psychic; I can't see such creating a wizard.

[OddHat]

Re: Every Myth Is Not True

 

I can see a random mutation or radiation exposure or genetic tampering creating a psychic; I can't see such creating a wizard.

 

Merlin's powers were genetic (son of the Devil). In real world belief, Shamans traditionally gained their powers through near-death experiences (accident induced powers) and/or drug use (chemical induced powers).

 

Same thing, different terminology for the modern version.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Every Myth Is Not True

 

Merlin's powers were genetic (son of the Devil). In real world belief, Shamans traditionally gained their powers through near-death experiences (accident induced powers) and/or drug use (chemical induced powers).

 

Same thing, different terminology for the modern version.

 

Well, no devils, so Merlin's still out, but I'd give you the shamans. They'd probably call their powers magic or shamanism or whatever, but at the end of the day, that's just because they don't understand mutations.

[OddHat]

Well' date=' no devils, so Merlin's still out, but I'd give you the shamans. They'd probably call their powers magic or shamanism or whatever, but at the end of the day, that's just because they don't understand mutations. [/quote']

 

If you wanted Merlin (and no reason that you should) you could either decide that he was a historical general or priest with no powers (popular in Arthur-rehashes) or the son of a mutant or alien with a devil-like appearance.

 

(In my own campaign, he was one of a group created through the experiments of an extraterrestrial race; Arthur was, of course, the amnesiac Corwin of Amber).

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Every Myth Is Not True

 

If you wanted Merlin (and no reason that you should) you could either decide that he was a historical general or priest with no powers (popular in Arthur-rehashes) or the son of a mutant or alien with a devil-like appearance.

 

I'm still debating on aliens, though using them as the various gods works great, especially for the 'descent from above' entrances ("Beam me down, I have tribute to collect.") More than likely I'd keep the group small ... say, every sun god (Apollo, Ra, Amaterasu, etc) was the same alien, every storm god (Zeus, Thor, Raiden, etc) was the same one. And they can change shape, of course.

 

Though, looking at it more in-depth, I think eliminating magic, alternate dimensions, and demons helps keep things on a human level. You don't have, say, alien invasions, or demonic incursions or possessions ... all your opponents are (fundamentally) human and have human motivations and are, in all likelihood, easier to relate to.

 

(In my own campaign, he was one of a group created through the experiments of an extraterrestrial race; Arthur was, of course, the amnesiac Corwin of Amber).

 

I'm going to assume that it won't surprise you when I say I have no idea who that is.

[McCoy]

Re: Every Myth Is Not True

 

Agreed, but nobody's ever shouted 'flame on' and become surrounded in an aura of fire and flown away, either. It's still a superhero game, so superpowers, by definition, have to work, and psychic supers are (relatively) commonplace. The primary difference is that not just anybody can sit down, contemplate their navels, and become a psychic; you have to either be a mutant or have a power-inducing circumstance.

 

I can see a random mutation or radiation exposure or genetic tampering creating a psychic; I can't see such creating a wizard.

Your campagine, your rules, just seemed to be an inconsisancy to me.

 

Likewise if you decide to go no aliens. The term superhero comes from the first of the genre, Kal El of Krypton.

 

It seems that what you want is a Watchman campagine, Dr. Manhattan the only true super and everyone else gadgeteers or skilled normals.

[OddHat]

Re: Every Myth Is Not True

 

I'm still debating on aliens' date=' though using them as the various gods works great, especially for the 'descent from above' entrances ("Beam me down, I have tribute to collect.") More than likely I'd keep the group small ... say, every sun god (Apollo, Ra, Amaterasu, etc) was the same alien, every storm god (Zeus, Thor, Raiden, etc) was the same one. And they can change shape, of course. [/quote']

 

I use "Most of the Thunder Gods were one guy" theme myself, though not through shape changing. The theory of Proto-Indo-European mythology is fact in my setting, with the addition that many myths are based on the real activities of a small number of immortal metahumans. So, for example, Perkwunos "real" exploits became the seeds of stories of gods including Jove and Thore.

Though, looking at it more in-depth, I think eliminating magic, alternate dimensions, and demons helps keep things on a human level. You don't have, say, alien invasions, or demonic incursions or possessions ... all your opponents are (fundamentally) human and have human motivations and are, in all likelihood, easier to relate to.

Sure, eliminating Aliens and alternate dimensions can help focus the game world. I don't give them center stage myself, though I do have them out there.

 

Calling magic "psionics" doesn't eliminate it, it just gives it a certain flavor. (I know, agree to disagree and all that; I'll drop it).

 

I'm going to assume that it won't surprise you when I say I have no idea who that is.

 

Character from the Roger Zelazny series "Chronicles of Amber." I steal from all over when world building.

[Alverant]

Re: Every Myth Is Not True

 

Something that filters through my cerebellum from time to time is the concept of running a superhero game in a universe where every myth and folk tale is not true; most of them are outright wrong' date=' with a few attributed to more 'mundane' aspects.[/quote']

 

I'm curious about how far back and recent you're going and if you're including modern and not so modern myths and folk tales. If the ancient gods like Zeus are just stories, what about Christ? Are Budda and Dali Llama mere psychics? Are good luck charms or relics really simple things with a fantastic tale attached to them?

[OddHat]

Re: Every Myth Is Not True

 

I'm curious about how far back and recent you're going and if you're including modern and not so modern myths and folk tales. If the ancient gods like Zeus are just stories' date=' what about Christ? Are Budda and Dali Llama mere psychics? Are good luck charms or relics really simple things with a fantastic tale attached to them?[/quote']

 

It's traditional in these timelines not to touch on Christ; too much of a chance of offending Christian players and readers, even done with the best of intentions.