Every Myth Is Not True

[CrosshairCollie]

Something that filters through my cerebellum from time to time is the concept of running a superhero game in a universe where every myth and folk tale is not true; most of them are outright wrong, with a few attributed to more 'mundane' aspects.

 

For example, in 4E Champs universe, there was a kind of 'vampire' that was just a mutant who could only subsist on potassium; they tended to be pale, psionically active, and of course, drank blood. While these were alongside traditional vampires in the CU, in the world I'm contemplating, that would have been the only 'real' vampire, though the rather limited intellects of the Dark Ages would have conflated them into what we call the 'traditional' vampire myths nowadays. Vlad Tepes might have existed, and been one of these vampires ... but he was alive, not undead, and couldn't generate more vampires.

 

No magic, of course. At all.

 

King Arthur, if he existed, was just a guy, and Excalibur was just a pigsticker. Merlin, say, was at best a psychic, at worst merely a charlatan. There was no Atlantis, but there could be a Loch Ness monster, but it would be a mutated lizard, not a mythical beast or timelost plesiosaur.

 

I'm pondering taking the Star Trek route and have the various pantheons instead be aliens, even though there's no concrete evidence of alien life, either ... I'm vacillating on that one.

 

Basically, for every mythological entry, I'd need to figure out if it was just a story, or if it had some basis in fact, and if the latter, exactly what it was. Unfortunately, considering the sheer amount of 'Fantasy Kitchen Sink'-ing that most superhero games do ... that's a lot of stuff, even if you consider the aspects of it that regularly crop up in USA-based supers games.

 

The question, of course, is 'is it worth the effort'? It would create more focus, in a way, since you wouldn't have mages and mutants and aliens and all poking around at the same time. On the other hand, it stifles a lot of common plot elements.

 

Thoughts (and other ideas for things I'd need to account for)?

[Toushirou]

Re: Every Myth Is Not True

 

sounds kinda really interesting. seems like a perfect way, even for the most experienced roleplayers, to seperate character knowledge from player knowledge. one of the greatest problems a gm can encounter, but involves rather lot of preparation from the gm. to keep the players confused a mixture of still common myths and fake knowledge could be ínvolved. reminds me of dark sun, elves are still long living, but halflings are cannibals, where civilized halflings killed you before they ate you;)

[matrix3]

Re: Every Myth Is Not True

 

One thing about "just a story" is that many myths may have just been fabricated to explain the massive fossilized bones found by ancient peoples. If you find a femur of a woolly mammoth that's nearly as long as you are tall, and you recognize it as a femur, you will think it came from a giant. If that femur is accompanied by a skull, with its nice, wide central opening for the mammoth's trunk, you will naturally assume it is an eye socket for a 30 foot tall cyclops. And if some of the fossils are jumbled together, so you have what looks like a horse's body, with the skull of a raptor-style dinosaur, ta-dah, you've got yourself a gryphon!

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Every Myth Is Not True

 

One thing about "just a story" is that many myths may have just been fabricated to example the massive fossilized bones found by ancient peoples. If you find a femur of a woolly mammoth that's nearly as long as you are tall' date=' and you recognize it as a femur, you will think it came from a giant. If that femur is accompanied by a skull, with its nice, wide central opening for the mammoth's trunk, you will naturally assume it is an eye socket for a 30 foot tall cyclops. And if some of the fossils are jumbled together, so you have what looks like a horse's body, with the skull of a raptor-style dinosaur, ta-dah, you've got yourself a gryphon![/quote']

 

True, but this files under the 'flatly wrong, generated by scientific ignorance' label. There never WERE griffins (or gryphons), though people thought there were. However, in some fictions, it may have been an errant dimensional wanderer from some faerie realm (reminds me, another thing to strike: parallel dimensions other than alternate timelines).

[Certified]

Re: Every Myth Is Not True

 

Here would be my questions before delving too deeply into this thought experiment.

Will it have an impact on the campaign? If so to what extent? An entire campaign could be spun around these ideas. If the game's focus is centered around exploring the realities behind the myths then yes I believe it could be a extremely fun campaign and well worth the effort.

 

Is there an overall feel you are trying to achieve by using the updated myths? Will it just be part of the background filler or will it have an in game effect on the campaign as a whole?

 

(This is less of a campaign design question and more of a storyline question but something that first came to mind when reading the post.) Will the real myths be absolute? That is to say all myths were either based on something more "scientific" or were flat out wrong or will there be some blend of them both? For example: The mutants who feed of blood and are the root of vampire legend. Vlad Tepes not withstanding. What if at some point through the course of the game this is proven inaccurate? At some the players encounter a new strain of vampire with abilities more closely related to legend and not nearly easily explained? Would this add or detract from what you are imagining?

 

Overall, I think the idea has a lot of potential for fun. That said, unless these themes are going to be central to the campaign you may not need to try and rationalize every myth out there.

 

I look forward to seeing what comes of the ideas regardless though.

[matrix3]

Re: Every Myth Is Not True

 

What about time travel? Could some of the ancient gods or the magics attributed to the ancient druids or the myths of Atlantis be errant time travellers?

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Every Myth Is Not True

 

Here would be my questions before delving too deeply into this thought experiment.

Will it have an impact on the campaign? If so to what extent? An entire campaign could be spun around these ideas. If the game's focus is centered around exploring the realities behind the myths then yes I believe it could be a extremely fun campaign and well worth the effort.

 

It's partly that, partly my own admission that I am becoming rapidly incapable of looking past my personal objective reality in dealing with fictional modern-day universes. I have trouble, say, playing a character who believes in magic in a standard Champions game despite the fact that she's interacted with Witchcraft twice and met Samhain. I find myself unable to suspend my disbelief that far anymore as I become more cynical, jaded and, in all honesty, angry in real life.

 

Is there an overall feel you are trying to achieve by using the updated myths? Will it just be part of the background filler or will it have an in game effect on the campaign as a whole?

 

I'm really not sure. Part of it may be just challenging assumptions.

 

(This is less of a campaign design question and more of a storyline question but something that first came to mind when reading the post.) Will the real myths be absolute? That is to say all myths were either based on something more "scientific" or were flat out wrong or will there be some blend of them both? For example: The mutants who feed of blood and are the root of vampire legend. Vlad Tepes not withstanding. What if at some point through the course of the game this is proven inaccurate? At some the players encounter a new strain of vampire with abilities more closely related to legend and not nearly easily explained? Would this add or detract from what you are imagining?

 

I don't even know if I would do that. I would make sure that I had the explanation in mind, and that it was in-line with the rest of the universe (perhaps the vampire is a genius and created a device that uses ultrasonics to manipulate bats, though it wouldn't be immediately obvious). Some real myths would simply be wrong, though ... pure fantasy. Atlantis, for example, was pure fable.

 

Overall, I think the idea has a lot of potential for fun. That said, unless these themes are going to be central to the campaign you may not need to try and rationalize every myth out there.

 

I look forward to seeing what comes of the ideas regardless though.

 

It's still kind of an early thought, just brainstorming. I do appreciate the input.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Every Myth Is Not True

 

What about time travel? Could some of the ancient gods or the magics attributed to the ancient druids or the myths of Atlantis be errant time travellers?

 

That opens up far too many paradoxes for me to want to play with. Time travel is just an ugly, ugly concept.

[Kenn]

Re: Every Myth Is Not True

 

My concern would be that it shuts off some types of origins for characters. If you have a unified origin in mind for the campaign, or your players don't mind, it's not a problem. But some players tend to favour the "Fantasy" side of super heroes while some favour the "Sci-Fi" side.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Every Myth Is Not True

 

My concern would be that it shuts off some types of origins for characters. If you have a unified origin in mind for the campaign' date=' or your players don't mind, it's not a problem. But some players tend to favour the "Fantasy" side of super heroes while some favour the "Sci-Fi" side.[/quote']

 

I know. The upside is, there's always character ignorance. Rahne 'Wolfsbane' Sinclair thought she was a real werewolf until she found out she was a mutant, f'rinstance.

[Clonus]

Re: Every Myth Is Not True

 

I ran a game in which "magic" did not exist. But I wouldn't have done it except that none of the PCs happened to give me a magic character. It didn't make much of a difference although I amused myself with rules for the disease that causes both vampirism and lycanthropy. Vampires could be killed with a strong dose of antibiotics.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Every Myth Is Not True

 

I ran a game in which "magic" did not exist. But I wouldn't have done it except that none of the PCs happened to give me a magic character. It didn't make much of a difference although I amused myself with rules for the disease that causes both vampirism and lycanthropy. Vampires could be killed with a strong dose of antibiotics.

 

Hmm. Vampires could, I suppose, have the ability to transmit a retrovirus that would give other people the genetic sequence ... undoing it would be a bear, but not impossible.

[OddHat]

Re: Every Myth Is Not True

 

Philip Jose Farmer's standard Wold Newton universe does exactly this, and even the official Wold Newton Superhero Universe doesn't depart much.

 

"Magic" is just what ignorant people call the Psychic Sciences and scientific devices beyond their ken.

 

"Superman" adventured only intermittently, his time taken up by his career as a reporter and eventually by raising a family. He couldn't fly, and could only (only?) lift about 15 tons.

 

Gilgamesh, Hercules, Magni, and many more of the Muscle-man Heroes of myth were just one time traveling immortal (John Clayton), and most of his deeds have been hopelessly exaggerated.

 

It's a fun game to play. My own timeline is lifted from it and modified to my own tastes, but I follow the same principle of re-working myth and fiction so that it (sort of) makes sense together.

 

The official Wold Newton site is here.

http://www.pjfarmer.com/woldnewton/Pulp2.htm

[OddHat]

Re: Every Myth Is Not True

 

It's partly that' date=' partly my own admission that I am becoming rapidly incapable of looking past my personal objective reality in dealing with fictional modern-day universes. I have trouble, say, playing a character who believes in magic in a standard Champions game despite the fact that she's interacted with Witchcraft twice and met Samhain. I find myself unable to suspend my disbelief that far anymore as I become more cynical, jaded and, in all honesty, angry in real life.[/quote']

 

I simplify my myths and magic in my games, as compared to many Superhero Universes. Mostly, I do so because it's fun, and to keep a consistent feeling in the game. I want Gods, Monsters, Magic, Flying Men who Shoot Lasers, etc. However, I feel that limiting the number of historically "real" pantheons of so-called Gods, monsters, etc, keeps the games more interesting. Limitations help to define a setting.

 

So, if you're going to have fun with it, I say go for it.

 

On the other hand, you sound like you may just be sick of Superheroes or Fantasy in general. When that has been the case with me, I've found it more fun to run entirely different genres for a while, or just take a break from gaming. A good Action, Pulp or Cyberpunk game can give a nice breather from the capes. After I come back, I tend to feel better about my game worlds.

 

Just my 2 cents and all that.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Every Myth Is Not True

 

*sigh*

 

Why is it, every time I think I'm having a new idea, it's been done?

[csyphrett]

Re: Every Myth Is Not True

 

I have seen this done for cartoons where every mythical monster is an alien. I think the main one I remember is Rosswell for BND.

 

It seems to me that cutting out all magic will lead to a world very much like Wild Cards where every power is psionic in nature and caused by altered DNA. And some people just don't like Wild Cards.

 

Like ODDhat said, you might just need to take a break from superheroes and play some other genre for a bit to recharge.

CES

[Cancer]

Re: Every Myth Is Not True

 

I would be way too tempted to embed into a game-world based on a premise like this something which is a fundamental contradiction, e.g., there cannot be any gods or underlying legends, yet the certain incontrovertably real past events require that some gods/legends/supermen did exist at the time. And, discovering/exposing that causes the fabric of "reality" to be threatened, with growing chaos and disintegration of physical, social, and spiritual order. Like Ragnarok, but with the cataclysm being of greater magnitude.

 

But, I'm a straightforward, cheerful sort of guy.

[OddHat]

Re: Every Myth Is Not True

 

I would be way too tempted to embed into a game-world based on a premise like this something which is a fundamental contradiction' date=' e.g., there cannot be any gods or underlying legends, yet the certain incontrovertably real past events require that some gods/legends/supermen [u']did[/u] exist at the time. And, discovering/exposing that causes the fabric of "reality" to be threatened, with growing chaos and disintegration of physical, social, and spiritual order. Like Ragnarok, but with the cataclysm being of greater magnitude.

 

But, I'm a straightforward, cheerful sort of guy.

 

I've sometimes thought of setting a campaign at the end of the Vedic cycles. Mankind has been reduced to ignorant, violent dwarfs living in caves. The characters discover a cache of survival equipment and teaching machinery from a previous age, and must use their new "power" to prevent the end of their cycle of time. Of course, at the end of the campaign, if they succeed, it means the death of what's left of Humanity and eventually the final heat death of the Universe.

 

Then I have a coffee and feel better.

[Dynamo]

Re: Every Myth Is Not True

 

Here's my take:

[...]a kind of 'vampire' that was just a mutant who could only subsist on potassium; they tended to be pale' date=' psionically active, and of course, drank blood.[/quote']This is interesting.

 

King Arthur, if he existed, was just a guy, and Excalibur was just a pigsticker. Merlin, say, was at best a psychic, at worst merely a charlatan.

This is boring.

 

There was no Atlantis[...]

Boring again.

 

[...]but there could be a Loch Ness monster, but it would be a mutated lizard, not a mythical beast or timelost plesiosaur.

And back to interesting.

 

Just pulling the fantastic elements out of legends is an interesting mental exercise but doesn't make for engaging backstory for an inherently fantastic genre. Unifying the fantastic elements in legends so that they support a single-source superpowered setting makes it engaging again.

 

Whether the source of superpowers is mutations, genetic seeding by the "Ancients", magical surge, undead contagion, divine descent, or the Mazarin-Rashoud node (see Aberrant), tying it into mythical events, and providing various ways for the PCs to learn about said tie-ins, strengthens your setting's backstory.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Every Myth Is Not True

 

Well, since there wasn't a King Arthur or a Merlin or an Atlantis, at least making the former and median historical figures is a step up.

[Certified]

Re: Every Myth Is Not True

 

We all know Atlantis is just a very large base bought with uncontrolled EDM...

[OddHat]

Re: Every Myth Is Not True

 

*sigh*

 

Why is it, every time I think I'm having a new idea, it's been done?

 

We're closing on 200 years of Science Fiction and Fantasy now, or we're well past 10000 years if you count myth and folk tales; We're all mostly looking for new ways to tell old stories. The trick is doing it entertainingly.

[OddHat]

Re: Every Myth Is Not True

 

Well' date=' since there wasn't a King Arthur or a Merlin or an Atlantis, at least making the former and median historical figures is a step up. [/quote']

 

There are a bunch of good historical candidates for Arthur, though I've always liked Alfred the Great or Caractacus as candidates for the "truth hidden in myth".

 

For that matter, I've always liked the ancient Minoan civilization as a candidate for the "real" Atlantis.

[teh bunneh]

Re: Every Myth Is Not True

 

I dunno. I think you could just, as part of your campaign guidelines, say "Mutants and tech-based characters only" and "superhumans have only been around since (insert your cutoff date here)." If someone says he wants to play the great-whatever-grandson of King Arthur, just veto the suggestion 'cause Arthur is only a myth in this setting. I've played and run in games where there were no alternate dimensions or gods or magic, and it was never really a big deal.

[Hermit]

Re: Every Myth Is Not True

 

*sigh*

 

Why is it, every time I think I'm having a new idea, it's been done?

 

What Oddhat said. It is very hard to come up with a truly original and GOOD idea... and frankly, if you have to choose between one of them, go for good Which, it seems you may have done. You can still put your own touches, your own embellishments, and so on. Do not be discouraged, even the 'geniuses' were often just improving on the wheel.