how do you deal with guns and superheroes in your campaign

[Tungsten Shephard]

Re: how do you deal with guns and superheroes in your campaign

 

For the most part my game group has dropped the single catch all PS: unless its for PS: Barber or PS: Waitress, etc. Those are essentially a one skill jobs. PS Mars Rover Driver had too many other factors and PS, Software Systems Annalist for the County had too many other skills such as various engineering skills or programing skills. For the most part we (my game group) has realized that in order for us to do our real life jobs the PS: can't be just one skill it encompasses too many other skills sets to utilize.

 

BUT if one PS works for your group more power to you.

[Opal]

Re: how do you deal with guns and superheroes in your campaign

 

I'd have no problem with statting what I do as PS: data analyst....

 

8-

 

but then I'm feeling under-utilized.

 

 

I mean, there really are a lot of niggly little things that I've learned to be able to do this job. I just don't think they each need be dignified with thier own line on my hypothetical character sheet.

[OddHat]

Superheroes have to be accountable, and that accountability has to be enforceable, without necessarily relying on other supers to do it, in my view. Otherwise... power corrupts, and normals eventually become thralls in the supernormal oligarchy. One could make an interesting game out of that, I suppose, but I'm not the guy to do it.[snip]

 

That said, different games run with different tones. And that's fine.

 

I'd emphasize that last note: Different games run with different tones, and different tropes. One person may run a game with grim Iron Age themes of the corruption of power, where Supers who are too powerful eventually bring about the downfall of society, etc, etc. Another might want a light hearted game where Superman can put on his glasses and fool his closest friends. Neither person is doing anything wrong, and neither can claim his take is inherently better storytelling or, G_d forbid, more "realistic". We've never seen people who can smash planets, move faster than light, or stop time; we have only guesses as to how they'd react to their abilities and how the world would react to them. The trick is telling the story in an entertaining way, whether it's the story of a farm boy who discovers he's the most powerful man in the world and decides to adhere to the highest moral principles, or the story of a boy who learns he's an all powerful alien and tries to force the insects around him to bend their knees. The story of a boy who discovers he's just really strong, fast and tough but can still be hurt by a guy with a rifle is fine too, as long as we tell it well.

 

EDIT: I guess I should also add that the great personal appeal of Super Heroes, for me, is that they have great power, and yet are not corrupted. You could argue that's just a fantasy; whether it is or isn't doesn't much matter. It's an entertaining fantasy, the dream of having the power to do good, to do what's right; that's a fantasy worth having.

 

That it's a fantasy tainted by the deeds of people who were doing what they believed to be right opens up another series of stories, but doesn't remove the appeal of the first.

 

If I wanted a "realistic" game, I'd be playing "Office: The Time Wasting".

[Zed-F]

Re: how do you deal with guns and superheroes in your campaign

 

I'd agree, superheroes that are not corrupted are a fantasy, but an entertaining one and perfectly fine to tell stories about. I often prefer to participate in such stories/games as a player, though, rather than as the person who has to come up with the story. My own stories often don't have the right feel for a truly comic book universe, since I have had limited exposure to the medium. Thus they sometimes tend to be more about people with powers, than about true-blue superheroes.

[OddHat]

Re: how do you deal with guns and superheroes in your campaign

 

I'd agree' date=' superheroes that are not corrupted are a fantasy, but an entertaining one and perfectly fine to tell stories about. I often prefer to participate in such stories/games as a player, though, rather than as the person who has to come up with the story. My own stories often don't have the right feel for a truly comic book universe, since I have had limited exposure to the medium. Thus they sometimes tend to be more about people with powers, than about true-blue superheroes.[/quote']

 

And I like to tell People with Powers stories now and then myself.

 

That said, supers who aren't corrupted by their powers may be a fantasy, but also may not be. We have a sample size of "0".

 

"Power corrupts" is a cry against injustice; it would be more accurate to say "Power sometimes corrupts, and sometimes doesn't, and often people who were corrupt in the first place rise to a position of power and can drop some of their virtuous mask, and sometimes people who believe themselves virtuous are actually corrupt, even as other people manage to use their power responsibly". That just doesn't sound as good as a slogan.

[Zed-F]

Heh, maybe I'm being a bit cynical here, but I tend to believe that power corrupts far more often than it doesn't, though it certainly can take time to do its work. I also tend to believe that supers are fallible human beings (for the most part) first, and supers second. With great power comes great responsibility makes a great catch phrase, but with a few exceptions, RL people who have great power tend to be less than perfectly responsible with it. To err is human, and to be human is to err. One way to take a person's measure is to examine how they deal with their imperfections and the consequences thereof, and I find it interesting to tell those sorts of stories.

 

There are other interesting, lighter-toned stories that can also be told, and I enjoy the occasional lighter-toned story as well; I just prefer to let others do the telling of those stories.

 

That said, one of the themes I've always considered exploring is a game where superheroes really are infallible, or as close to it as makes no difference -- where they all believe that with great power comes great responsibility, and it actually sticks -- and then examine in the context of the game why that is the case.

[OddHat]

Re: how do you deal with guns and superheroes in your campaign

 

Heh, maybe I'm being a bit cynical here, but I tend to believe that power corrupts far more often than it doesn't. I also tend to believe that supers are fallible human beings (for the most part) first, and supers second. With great power comes great responsibility makes a great catch phrase, but with a few exceptions, RL people who have great power tend to be less than perfectly responsible with it. To err is human, and to be human is to err. One way to take a person's measure is to examine how they deal with their imperfections and the consequences thereof, and I find it interesting to tell those sorts of stories.

 

There are other interesting, lighter-toned stories that can also be told, and I enjoy the occasional lighter-toned story as well; I just prefer to let others do the telling of those stories.

 

Again. I agree that there are fine stories to be told about fallible human beings with powers; my own stories and those I enjoy, even the light hearted ones, are about people.

 

Not that there's anything wrong with a Perfect Paragon.

 

Still, there's a huge space between "less than perfect" and "corrupt". I've know a lot of powerful people (in real world political, economic, social and physical terms) over the years; despite normal motivations to further their careers and help out their families, most did not abuse their power, and I'm pretty certain that more power wouldn't have made a difference.

 

History may have produced genocidal dictators, but then it has also produced career politicians who mainly wanted to do what they thought was best (not that they were always right), and the great middle ground of well intentioned administrators who muddled through.

 

I have Absolute Power over my cats; I've been pretty ethical in my treatment of them. I did get them fixed, but that was for their own good; you might make an interesting Supers story out of that.

[nexus]

Re: how do you deal with guns and superheroes in your campaign

 

There's also allot of middle ground between the extremes of "All superhumans will become corrupt tyrants because of their power (barring a beat stick to hold over their heads)" and "Superhumans are incorruptible (and infallible) paragons of virtue" thats worth exploring, IMO.

[OddHat]

Re: how do you deal with guns and superheroes in your campaign

 

There's also allot of middle ground between the extremes of "All superhumans will becoming corrupt tyrants because of their power (barring a beat stick to hold over their heads)" and "Superhumans are incorruptible (and infallible) paragons of virtue" thats worth exploring' date=' IMO.[/quote']

 

Yup. And I doubt there are really all that many campaigns set all the way at one extreme or the other; All but the shiniest Comics Code stories had heroes who sometimes made mistakes, and all but the rustiest Iron Age comics have characters who will, just occasionally, try to do the right thing.

[Zed-F]

Re: how do you deal with guns and superheroes in your campaign

 

Agreed. In a game world where one is telling a People with Powers story, folks in general should be about as likely or as unlikely to do the right thing as they would be without powers, taken as an average. I might throw in a little extra seasoning of 'power corrupts' because there is more personal power available to corrupt with -- and because the heroes do need bad guys to fight, after all -- but too much spoils the recipe. Definitely there are plenty of people around who continue to try to do the best they can, even in altered circumstances.

[Opal]

Re: how do you deal with guns and superheroes in your campaign

 

The old saw about 'power corrupts' really is talking about political power. That kind of power is gained and wielded through complex relationships with others. The kind of personal power wielded by superheroes just doesn't exist IRL, but, I'd speculate that it would 'corrupt' in a very different way, having much more to do with the person, a much more internal struggle than that faced by those who much make moral and ethical compromises to gain and retain political power.

 

Or, more suscinctly: superpowers are pure fantasy, so heros with the moral fiber to resist corruption, who are also pure fantasy, are perfectly apropriate.

[Tungsten Shephard]

Re: how do you deal with guns and superheroes in your campaign

 

The old saw about 'power corrupts' really is talking about political power.

 

Yes the captain of the cheerleaders squad would never be corrupt enough to manipulate the team to fit her auspicious popularity needs.

 

Power Corrupts, Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely you see this in business, sport teams, and MacDonalds day shift supervisors every day. If you think it's just limited to Government entities then you have an interesting view of humanity. Mankind will exploit its own at every opportunity unless individuals have something bigger than him self to believe in. Such as a Moral code, a sense of responsible ethics, a belief in a higher power, or Jesus Christ as his own personal Lord and Savior. To expect better of humanity is to be naive in my opinion. This is why the world needs HERO's and will always need HERO's from the ancient days of Youxia to modern day Supers, HERO's matter.

[Opal]

Re: how do you deal with guns and superheroes in your campaign

 

Yes the captain of the cheerleaders squad would never be corrupt enough to manipulate the team to fit her auspicious popularity needs.

That's politics, too, at least in the sense I meant, as in 'office politics,' for another instance. Gaming groups can suffer from it too. I considered using a broader term like 'interaction' or 'manipulation,' but I didn't think it'd've carried the propper sleazy connotation.

 

Mankind will exploit its own at every opportunity unless individuals have something bigger than him self to believe in.

The importance of a higher belief in wielding power responsibly (or, indeed, at all) is a theme I've tried to inject into my current game - with absolutely no success. A lot of people just don't think that way anymore, and it's hard to frame without sounding 'preachy.'

[JmOz]

Re: how do you deal with guns and superheroes in your campaign

 

 

I have Absolute Power over my cats; I've been pretty ethical in my treatment of them. I did get them fixed, but that was for their own good; you might make an interesting Supers story out of that.

 

World Population growth is out of control, we had to "fix" 95% of the population for their own good. Of course we're the heroes, we know what is right for you and we are willing to make sure you do as we want...Seriously wasn't that basicaly the plot line of Squadron Supreme?

[Zed-F]

Re: how do you deal with guns and superheroes in your campaign

 

Or' date=' more succinctly: superpowers are pure fantasy, so heroes with the moral fiber to resist corruption, who are also pure fantasy, are perfectly appropriate.[/quote']

Yes, if that's the style of game you want to run. No argument.

 

I personally prefer to minimize the number of things for which I have to suspend my disbelief, especially when I am responsible for creating the gameworld. As a player, I have a higher tolerance for disbelief suspension. But as a GM, I have to create a world I feel is internally consistent, and the easiest way for me to do that is to either depart from real life as little as I can get away with, or to go completely from whole cloth and start from scratch. I generally choose the former as it's less work; YMMV.

[Zed-F]

Re: how do you deal with guns and superheroes in your campaign

 

Originally Posted by OddHat

 

I have Absolute Power over my cats; I've been pretty ethical in my treatment of them. I did get them fixed, but that was for their own good; you might make an interesting Supers story out of that.

World Population growth is out of control' date=' we had to "fix" 95% of the population for their own good. Of course we're the heroes, we know what is right for you and we are willing to make sure you do as we want...Seriously wasn't that basicaly the plot line of Squadron Supreme?[/quote']

Here we're getting to a question about when is it appropriate to treat the civilian population like children? When they act like children? If you get to the point where 95% of the population of the planet needs to be sterilized to prevent population overpressure from killing the ecosystem... well obviously something needed to be done long before we got to that point, and nobody was willing to do it. So, if the choice is treating the civilians like children and forcing an answer on them, or letting them commit mass suicide by eco-catastrophe, what do you do?

 

Of course, then there's always the question of whether the problem is really as bad as you think it is...

[Clonus]

Re: how do you deal with guns and superheroes in your campaign

 

I am not a fan of the 'supers are absolutely required to deal with supers' trope. If you have that trope in force' date=' then the entire basis on which global socio-political power is generated and wielded shifts. In my game worlds, you will likely never see a situation in which the military is rendered obsolete by superheroes, because I'm just not interested in exploring the ramifications of concentrating [b']all[/b] the world's 'might makes right' into the hands of a few hundreds or thousands of individuals.

 

Superheroes have to be accountable, and that accountability has to be enforceable, without necessarily relying on other supers to do it, in my view. Otherwise... power corrupts, and normals eventually become thralls in the supernormal oligarchy. One could make an interesting game out of that, I suppose, but I'm not the guy to do it.

 

In what way do you suppose the military's accountability is enforceable except by relying on other members of the military? Is it simply that the military is larger than the (usual) superhuman population and hence there is less of a problem with having to rely on their loyalty being more to the system than to each other?

 

That being said, in my campaigns as well the military had ways of effectively challenging powerful superheroes who go too far off the reservation. It's just that those methods didn't particularly rely on typical soldiers armed with carbines. Elite commandos armed with laser rifles and vibroknives, battlesuits named "Brigade" and "HALO", robotic myrmidons, homing missiles, radio-detonated anti-tank mines and nerve gas were more the thing. Not to mention of course actual super-powered military personnel. Regular soldiers might be used in overwhelming numbers against characters with poor defenses but anyone who can't handle a typical encounter with handful of men with guns really should stay out of the superhero biz, because their survival prospects are rather limited.

[Tungsten Shephard]

Originally Posted by OddHat

 

I have Absolute Power over my cats; I've been pretty ethical in my treatment of them. I did get them fixed, but that was for their own good; you might make an interesting Supers story out of that.

 

WOW interesting what you just stated IS the basis of my current game. At least from the bad guys point of view. I treated the situation as Freedom vs. Tyranny. The players quickly learned the value of Freedom over the personal destruction of Dominance.

 

"Freedom is the RIGHT of all sentient beings."

-Optimus Prime

 

The importance of a higher belief in wielding power responsibly (or, indeed, at all) is a theme I've tried to inject into my current game - with absolutely no success. A lot of people just don't think that way anymore, and it's hard to frame without sounding 'preachy.'

 

A good Film to have your players watch is called. The Lives of Others

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lives_of_Others

[Zed-F]

In what way do you suppose the military's accountability is enforceable except by relying on other members of the military? Is it simply that the military is larger than the (usual) superhuman population and hence there is less of a problem with having to rely on their loyalty being more to the system than to each other?

There are relatively more military than there are supers in most supers games, and soldiers are relatively closer to civilians than supers are. If the government/military goes off the reservation, it's theoretically possible for the civilian population to arm themselves and deal with the problem... aka revolution. Not easy, not cheap, and not lightly undertaken, but possible. Similarly, I feel that if the supers as a group go off the reservation, it must be possible for the non-super population to have some recourse, even if it is similarly not easy, cheap, or lightly undertaken.

 

That being said, in my campaigns as well the military had ways of effectively challenging powerful superheroes who go too far off the reservation. It's just that those methods didn't particularly rely on typical soldiers armed with carbines. Elite commandos armed with laser rifles and vibroknives, battlesuits named "Brigade" and "HALO", robotic myrmidons, homing missiles, radio-detonated anti-tank mines and nerve gas were more the thing. Not to mention of course actual super-powered military personnel. Regular soldiers might be used in overwhelming numbers against characters with poor defenses but anyone who can't handle a typical encounter with handful of men with guns really should stay out of the superhero biz, because their survival prospects are rather limited.

My approach would be similar, as far as making a distinction between regular forces and special forces go, though instead of emphasizing a technological advantage for the special forces, I would emphasize a training and tactics advantage for the special forces, relative to common mooks and regular forces soldiers. (I know there are regular forces soldiers dedicated to their careers, but for simplicity's sake I assume dedicated soldiers join the special forces or are in otherwise elite units, while the regular forces are not all that well-trained.) Carbines with armour-piercing ammunition are, in fact sufficient, given sufficient coordinated attacker bonus and/or haymakers or ranged martial attacks (e.g. representing headshots.) Besides, there are plenty of real-world weapons that will do the job just fine against most supers, even if those weapons are generally employed to attack vehicles rather than people in the real world.

[Mike W]

Re: how do you deal with guns and superheroes in your campaign

 

In the thread about CapGun, it was brought up that normal guys with guns really shouldn't be effective against supervillains.

Now in my campaign, I design the agents. major police etc as pretty heroic characters they'd be the stars of the show if not for the supers ( and since I run a multiverse campaign other versions actually are the "big guns" in other universes.) but the villains are designed so that a normal with a gun is rarely the answer. Its not that everyone is bulletproof its just normals need the supers to deal with the "firepower" of the villains extraordinary abilities.

My question is how do you handle this? Do you go my route or another way? Make the normals really normal? villains don't confront conventional forces much? Gunguys are a good alternative? ( if so what makes the heroes "Super" innate heroism maybe) Just curious.

 

Normal guns don't really hurt supers. But police have special squads (sort of SUPER SWAT like Code Blue form Marvel) that have guns which can hurt regular supers, though the cops are still at a bit of a disadvantage depending on who they're dealing with. Similarly, some agents just carry regular guns, others don't. I expect agents of AIM or minions of major masterminds like The Wizard to have things that are not street issue. Now Hammerhead's guys, yeah, they just have off the street .45s. They might hurt some supers, assuming they can hit them. But then, that's another problem entirely. I mean, sure that .45 can hurt Spiderman. Now all you have to do is hit him.

[Tungsten Shephard]

Re: how do you deal with guns and superheroes in your campaign

 

Normal guns don't really hurt supers.

 

Whoa, what point value do you start with. What are your limitations on normal and resistant defenses?

 

Not all supers have to be superman you know, it tends to get boring for the players after a while.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: how do you deal with guns and superheroes in your campaign

 

Whoa, what point value do you start with. What are your limitations on normal and resistant defenses?

 

Not all supers have to be superman you know, it tends to get boring for the players after a while.

 

Well, no, but really, to be a superhero, you do need superpowers, or at least supertech. Yes, by this definition, Batman is not a superhero. A hero, yes, but not a superhero.

 

I don't have Dark Champs, so let's file a typical gun as a 2d6 Kill. Sounds good, at least. With my rules, a normal using that gun against a super always deals 6 Body and 12 Stun. It's going to be nearly impossible to hurt anybody with powers with that thing, assuming you can hit them.

 

As far as 'keeping people in line' goes, there's UNTIL and PRIMUS and those sorts, which have their own superteams and supertech. Yes, the police are utterly and completely helpless against supervillains, at least in terms of combat. But again, if the cops could handle the supervillains, what purpose would the superheroes serve? "Forget the Justice League, call the LAPD!" Wha?

[Opal]

Re: how do you deal with guns and superheroes in your campaign

 

True, just because normal, real world tech is ineffective against supers doesn't mean that normals with sufficient resources (militaries, special police units, crime organizations etc) couldn't be. They just have to cross the line and give thier people preternatural levels of training or super-tech equipment. That's where 'Agents' come from.

 

(and, incidentally, where some supers find thier origin stories).

[Tungsten Shephard]

Re: how do you deal with guns and superheroes in your campaign

 

I don't have Dark Champs, so let's file a typical gun as a 2d6 Kill. Sounds good, at least. With my rules, a normal using that gun against a super always deals 6 Body and 12 Stun. It's going to be nearly impossible to hurt anybody with powers with that thing, assuming you can hit them.

 

This is why I wanted to know the specifics of your allowed defenses.

 

Even with a standard resistance of 10-15 it is still possible for a normal with a normal gun to damage that particular character. GM's tend to forget you can double the damage of any weapon.

 

Taking your example of 2 d6 you can increase the damage just from using a haymaker 3 d6+1, Thats 10 body 20 Stun average. Now lets add CSL's to make the gun 4 d6 (12 body 24 stun) simple enough.

 

Then there are ways to reduce resistant armor by half ....

 

How much of an arms race do you want your campaigns to be? Bullet proof supers and bullet proof villans are weak games as the end result is Og Bang Stick. I've found it much better to allow guns to be dangerous to both HERO and Villain to force both players and Villains to work in the background.

[Tungsten Shephard]

Re: how do you deal with guns and superheroes in your campaign

 

Allow me to state this a better way.

 

The real world natural result of bullet proof villains is a better bullet for a better price. By making your villains bullet proof (high resistant def) your end result is an arms race for your HERO's. It's better to just only allow for lower resistant def like 9-14 and be done with it otherwise every one of your HERO's becomes based on Drains Transforms, Suppress, and Find Weakness powers. Thats what 28 years of playing champions has taught me. Champions can be so much more without invincible man ruining your game.