Idea: Super Hero "Morality scale"

[AdamLeisemann]

Here's an idea my brother and I thought about on the previous weekend.

 

In a lot of games, there is generally some kind of morality/humanity scale. This is like Humanity in Sorcerer and Vampire: The Masquerade, or Wisdom in Mage: The Awakening, or other similar systems based on Degeneration.

 

The approach would be as follows:

 

15 stages of morality, and characters begin at Neutral. They can become good or evil based on their actions, but in going too far either way, there is a risk of eventually becoming Unbalanced. (Such as being the Watchmen or Darkseid).

 

Of course, each level would have an act of good (to become more good) and an act of evil (to become more evil) associated with each, with tangible benefits for each level away from neutral, until you become the Authority (Good gone too far) or Doctor Destroyer (Evil gone too far).

 

Just a basic idea admittedly lacking in development, something that may go well with a campaign message of "absolute power corrupts absolutely because of how this power is misused."

[Wanderer]

Re: Idea: Super Hero "Morality scale"

 

I cannot give you any specific, direct advice, since I find WW's Morality systems philosophically loathsome and a stumbling block to gameplay and I wouldn't touch them with a lead-lined 10' pole in an NBC suit with protective enchantments.

 

But some time ago I did concoct a nifty quick self-test to reckon a hero's morality, and I assume it might help you get some indirect inspiration for developing some of the stages in your morality scale.

 

check the Heroic Morality Test

 

Hope it may be useful to you.

[Vondy]

Re: Idea: Super Hero "Morality scale"

 

This assumes everyone in your group can agree on a universal, objective moral standard to apply to super-heroes. It also assumes that the players need to have a behavior enforcement mechanism in place to ensure they stay in genre and actually play their characters. I think the first proposition is iffy, the second insulting. White Wolf had an interesting idea, but their system revealed not only sophmoric philosophical notions, but a serious paternalistic mistrust of the players. Act like a superhero or the GM will get you...

[input.jack]

Re: Idea: Super Hero "Morality scale"

 

I also have problems with the idea that "too much Good is Evil", which seems to be a part of the system youre wanting to incorporate. Yes, its possible for people with "good intentions" to become authoritarian dictators. But its also possible to always do what you think is right, and thus never take the step across that line because you KNOW its wrong to do so.

 

One of the things that makes Superman a hero is that, despite his almost limitless power, he has never tried to take the fundamental right of free will away from the people.

[Hermit]

Re: Idea: Super Hero "Morality scale"

 

I think I'll stick to asking my players to take psych lims (Their choice which ones) that encourage in genre heroism

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: Idea: Super Hero "Morality scale"

 

How would such a system model Superman. Ultimately powerful, completely Boy Scout, doesn't have inhumanity problems.

 

Or Bats staying on the line, but never crossing.

[Wanderer]

Re: Idea: Super Hero "Morality scale"

 

How would such a system model Superman. Ultimately powerful, completely Boy Scout, doesn't have inhumanity problems.

 

There are some that might argue with good reason that Supes' dedication to his Boy Scout ideal may look rather inhuman and kinda psycho in some aspects. Cfr. when he refused even to try and kill the cosmically-empowered Emperor Joker who was moments away from snuffing out all of Reality. Someone who puts his own moral grandstanding before the salvation of the world is not someone that I'd define well-adjusted or having a trustworthy scale of priorities, from a human PoV.

 

Therefore, he may actually be rather a good example of how "Good" gone too far may warp one away from humanity. Fiat Justitia, Pereat Mundus (let justice be done, the world may perish).

[Vondy]

Re: Idea: Super Hero "Morality scale"

 

There are some that might argue with good reason that Supes' dedication to his Boy Scout ideal may look rather inhuman and kinda psycho in some aspects. Cfr. when he refused even to try and kill the cosmically-empowered Emperor Joker who was moments away from snuffing out all of Reality. Someone who puts his own moral grandstanding before the salvation of the world is not someone that I'd define well-adjusted or having a trustworthy scale of priorities, from a human PoV.

 

Therefore, he may actually be rather a good example of how "Good" gone too far may warp one away from humanity. Fiat Justitia, Pereat Mundus (let justice be done, the world may perish).

 

Which takes us back to the difficulty in creating a consensus of morality to work from.

The very use of the term "consensus of morality" has given me an intense case of vertigo and nausea.

[nexus]

Re: Idea: Super Hero "Morality scale"

 

I think it comes down to what kind of stories you and your group want to tell. Stories about "Good gone to far" (which is one way to describe The Authority, IIRC even Ellis described them similarly) can be great so can classic four color superheroics were good is good and wrong is wrong with shades of gray thrown in for flavor.

 

While generally I don't like White Wolf like "morality meters" they can contribute to a certain style of game. My main issue with them is they seem designed to make degeneration inevitable and even rank and file human beings start out only high average" on most of them. Even doing nothing at all only slows your PCs decline in some cases unless they lock themselves away from the world entirely.

 

re: Superman.

 

I like Superman and his portrayal. I think he's an excellent and some uplifting example that Power doesn't always equal tyrant. But being a comic book character he's been written across a spectrum. Superman HAS killed or tried when it came down to that or vast amounts of suffering and death. He tries to avoid, usually can and it trouble him greatly when he can't, like a good police officer IMO. But nothing can protect a character from off kilter writing or bad editorial decisions. You have to look at the whole (or large sample) of the character's appearances.

 

I find is kind of funny that Superman (usually bashed on for being a "goofy boy scout) in his original incarnation was much more the radical type, bordering on bully, much more willing to use lethal force and physical threats to get his point across. He was practically Iron Age before Iron Age was kewl.

[Vondy]

Re: Idea: Super Hero "Morality scale"

 

 

I find is kind of runny that Superman (usually bashed on for being a "goofy boy scout) in his original incarnation was much more the radical type, bordering on bully, much more willing to use lethal force and physical threats to get his point across. He was practically Iron Age before Iron Age was kewl.

 

It was the hard-boiled era. He was contemporary with Sam Spade, G-8, the Avenger, and the earliest Mike Hammer stories. And gun-toting Batman. It was a time when men were men and nobody liked a weak sister. Iron Age is just sissy modern writers doing hard-boiled fiction badly because they don't comprehend the emotional basis or underlying premises of the genre.

[OddHat]

Re: Idea: Super Hero "Morality scale"

 

The Watchmen aren't absolute Good; neither is the Authority. Both are examples of Super Teams with flawed human members who, eventually, take actions that can only reasonably be described as "Evil", if the term means anything at all.

 

Silver Age Comics Code characters would be examples of "Good" in comic book terms.

[jkwleisemann]

Re: Idea: Super Hero "Morality scale"

 

Speaking as the brother who helped to work this all together....

 

The idea hadn't just been an inexorable slide into madness and destruction, as White Wolf's Humanity scale so often was. As Input_Jack pointed out, under the initial description the idea suggests that good eventually shifts to evil without anything in particular as a problem, and that hadn't really been the intent.

 

The intent, rather, would be more like this... you've got good folks, you've got evil folks (defining 'good' as generally altruistic and 'evil' as generally selfish - superhero world, after all.)

 

The trick is, you've also got a scale that measures for 'intensity' - and, going farther out, not just "doing something really, really good, like sacrificing yourself for another," but for starting to reach an unbalanced state....

 

Superman himself, as usually written, wouldn't end up pegging the scale. He has a very strong moral code which he follows, he does things that are 'good' to an almost insane level... but *most* Superman versions don't take it upon themselves to make people do what's right regardless of the cost.

 

Just using a few handy examples....

 

Too Far Good: The Authority. Willing to kill with minimal discrimination for the 'greater good' - crusaders who convert at the point of a sword.

Getting there: Ozymandius, from the Watchmen (heck, might even rate him up there with the Authority, I haven't read Watchmen yet....)

Starting to go too far: Casey Jones, The Punisher, or Ghost Rider (lack of restraint and ability to recognize that sometimes *they* do more than they should).

Relatively balanced, but good people: Superman, Batman... most superheroes.

 

Relatively balanced, but 'evil' people: The Rhino, most Supervillains who don't kill but engage in constant selfish actions (bank robberies, for example).

Starting to go too far: Supervillains who generally engage in selfish actions and are willing to kill with minimal hesitation.

Going Too Far: The Kingpin, Venom, others to whom life means little or nothing. There's a very thin line before most published villains hit this one.

Too Far - Evil: Doctor Doom, Darkseid... willing to annihilate people either with no hesitation in large amounts, or for its own sake.

 

Basically - good vs evil measured by selfish acts vs altruistic ones, 'too far' measured by your willingness to kill, enslave, conquer, maim, etc. to accomplish your goals, whatever they may be... your ability (or lack thereof) to exercise moderation and recognize that the world doesn't want what you do and that's not grounds to wipe out the 'peasants.'

[OddHat]

Re: Idea: Super Hero "Morality scale"

 

This assumes everyone in your group can agree on a universal' date=' objective moral standard to apply to super-heroes. It also assumes that the players need to have a behavior enforcement mechanism in place to ensure they stay in genre and actually play their characters. I think the first proposition is iffy, the second insulting. White Wolf had an interesting idea, but their system revealed not only sophmoric philosophical notions, but a serious paternalistic mistrust of the players. Act like a superhero or the GM will get you...[/quote']

 

Which takes us back to the difficulty in creating a consensus of morality to work from.

The very use of the term "consensus of morality" has given me an intense case of vertigo and nausea.

 

What he said, through and through. Could someone rep Von for me?

[nexus]

Re: Idea: Super Hero "Morality scale"

 

This assumes everyone in your group can agree on a universal' date=' objective moral standard to apply to super-heroes. It also assumes that the players need to have a behavior enforcement mechanism in place to ensure they stay in genre and actually play their characters. I think the first proposition is iffy, the second insulting. White Wolf had an interesting idea, but their system revealed not only sophmoric philosophical notions, but a serious paternalistic mistrust of the players. Act like a superhero or the GM will get you...[/quote']

 

When you mention White Wolf are you talking about Aberrant? That game actually didn't have a Morality meter.

[jkwleisemann]

Re: Idea: Super Hero "Morality scale"

 

What he said' date=' through and through. Could someone rep Von for me?[/quote']

Got 'im.

 

And I think the WW references were talking more about the WoD setting than Aberration.

 

Err... Aberrant. I'd change the word, but the goof was too good to remove....

[nexus]

Re: Idea: Super Hero "Morality scale"

 

What he said' date=' through and through. Could someone rep Von for me?[/quote']

 

I have to agree that White Wolf seems to have an inherent distrust of its customers ability to role play their character and/or a need to try and drive their opinion down their throats.

 

Sometimes this is warranted and even fun but it often comes across a heavy handed, IMO.

[jkwleisemann]

Re: Idea: Super Hero "Morality scale"

 

Since I clarified a few points re: what we'd been thinking about the morality, I thought I'd also bring up our view regarding 'forcing it down their throats' - it's not being forced, so much as it's something they might *want* to go too far on. All the stages have benefits and penalties, good or evil, and the benefits usually outweigh the penalties (though they tend to be more social than 'firepower' based - followers, for example). It's sort of an experiment in the theme of power corrupting, and pitting gamer-greed ("more power! More, more!") against gamer-better-instincts... which, ultimately, is what 'power corrupts' is all about.

[OddHat]

Re: Idea: Super Hero "Morality scale"

 

 

Basically - good vs evil measured by selfish acts vs altruistic ones, 'too far' measured by your willingness to kill, enslave, conquer, maim, etc. to accomplish your goals, whatever they may be... your ability (or lack thereof) to exercise moderation and recognize that the world doesn't want what you do and that's not grounds to wipe out the 'peasants.'

 

All of your too far examples are, to me, descriptions of Evil behavior. They just happen to be Evil acts taken for what the actor believes to be a Good cause. I'm not in your game, and you can of course do as you want in your setting; still, from my point of view, thinking that what your doing is Good doesn't make it so. Mass murderers, tyrants, thugs and petty bullies may believe that they're in the right; in my experience they generally do. Still, if there is objective Good and Evil, they are not playing on the side of the Angels.

[nexus]

Re: Idea: Super Hero "Morality scale"

 

Since I clarified a few points re: what we'd been thinking about the morality' date=' I thought I'd also bring up our view regarding 'forcing it down their throats' - it's not being forced, so much as it's something they might *want* to go too far on. All the stages have benefits and penalties, good or evil, and the benefits usually outweigh the penalties (though they tend to be more social than 'firepower' based - followers, for example). It's sort of an experiment in the theme of power corrupting, and pitting gamer-greed ("more power! More, more!") against gamer-better-instincts... which, ultimately, is what 'power corrupts' is all about. [/quote']

 

My comments on forcing the issue were directed at White Wolf. I haven't seen enough of your system to comment. But I do think morality meter overall run the risk of feeling that way.

[jkwleisemann]

Re: Idea: Super Hero "Morality scale"

 

That... actually, in a way, that was kind of the point.

 

At least it was while we were talking it over in the car.

 

The idea was that most games with a 'moral spectrum' don't recognize that there's a point where your 'good' actions have gone so far that they go back over to being evil. Sort of a circular morality, rather than Good -> Neutral -> Evil

[OddHat]

Re: Idea: Super Hero "Morality scale"

 

That... actually, in a way, that was kind of the point.

 

At least it was while we were talking it over in the car.

 

The idea was that most games with a 'moral spectrum' don't recognize that there's a point where your 'good' actions have gone so far that they go back over to being evil. Sort of a circular morality, rather than Good -> Neutral -> Evil

I see the point, but I don't agree that what you're describing is going too far towards "Good" (and I don't say your point has no merit just because I don't agree). I'd say that, if there is Good and Evil, then Evil actions remain Evil, even if the actor believes them to be Good. Ethnic cleansing mobs may believe that the minorities they're attacking deserve to die; that doesn't make the actions of the mob members "Good", unless you're running a world where that kind of murder has been declared objectively good by the powers that be (you and your fellow GMs).

 

So, getting back to the original idea, I don't think I'd play in a campaign with an absolute scale of Good and Evil, unless I agreed with the scale.

[Vondy]

Re: Idea: Super Hero "Morality scale"

 

When you mention White Wolf are you talking about Aberrant? That game actually didn't have a Morality meter.

 

No. I mentioned it, because white wolf introduced this kind of scale in VtM and made it model for most of their games.

[nexus]

Re: Idea: Super Hero "Morality scale"

 

No. I mentioned it' date=' because white wolf introduced this kind of scale in VtM and made it model for most of their games.[/quote']

 

Ah, Okay, I was wondering since the closest WW has come to a "superhero" game is Aberrant*.

 

*And if you ask them they'll deny it

[input.jack]

Re: Idea: Super Hero "Morality scale"

 

Ah, Okay, I was wondering since the closest WW has come to a "superhero" game is Aberrant*.

 

*And if you ask them they'll deny it

 

Because the guys at White Wolf wouldnt know a real HERO if one bit them on the keister.

 

Neither would the guys who wrote The Authority.

 

People willing to kill with minimal discrimination for "the greater good", or convert at the point of a sword, are NOT Good people. They are brutal tyrannical thugs masquerading as Good people. As soon as you start using indiscriminate force, and as soon as you start believing that the end justifies the means, you have crossed the line from Good over to Evil, regardless of your own interpretations of things.

 

The scale should read Good > Neutral > Evil. It should NOT be circular.

 

Its just that where a character IS on the scale, and where a character THINKS they are, are sometimes two very different things.

[OddHat]

Re: Idea: Super Hero "Morality scale"

 

The scale should read Good > Neutral > Evil. It should NOT be circular.

 

Its just that where a character IS on the scale, and where a character THINKS they are, are sometimes two very different things.

 

Ayup.

 

Re: White Wolf. The Vampire, Werewolf and Mage games I played and GMed back in the day always boiled down to Superheroes with Fangs / Claws / Spells, just like the vast majority of fiction where monsters are the protagonists. The path from Victorian Fantasy to Superheroes pretty much runs that way; people with Superpowers and Super Technology are usually (but not always) the antagonists in Victoriana, the Pulps see some of the Supers becoming protagonists, and finally in Superhero literature the full range of Superpowers becomes available to the Heroes.