Flash, Flash Defense, Cost Vs. Value

[Vondy]

I have an issue.

 

I haven't used a flash attack since 4th edition.

 

The new method seems to make flash attacks uber-effective in that they can have several turns worth of effect on moderate dice amounts.

 

In of itself that's not too bothersome - a bit, but not too much.

 

My issue is a different one: it inflates (significantly) the amount of flash defense you need.

 

As a result, are you really getting value for what you pay for the flash defense?

 

Or, are you paying more for defense against what amounts to a once in a blue moon and somewhat unbalanced flash attack effect ratio (in an experiential, value oriented sense)?

 

I'm not sure; would like some feedback from people who have experience with them in play - and with building characters with flash defense under the new schema.

[Starlight]

Re: Flash, Flash Defense, Cost Vs. Value

 

The new method seems to make flash attacks uber-effective in that they can have several turns worth of effect on moderate dice amounts.

 

This sentence makes me wonder if you are using the total on the dice for the duration rather than the Body rolled? On average 12D6 of Flash will result in twelve (12) segments of flash duration rather than several turns.

[Vondy]

Re: Flash, Flash Defense, Cost Vs. Value

 

This sentence makes me wonder if you are using the total on the dice for the duration rather than the Body rolled? On average 12D6 of Flash will result in twelve (12) segments of flash duration rather than several turns.

 

 

I haven't used them at all. However, I was thinking "total rolled" and not "body rolled." That pretty much clears it up.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Flash, Flash Defense, Cost Vs. Value

 

My issue is a different one: it inflates (significantly) the amount of flash defense you need.

 

As a result, are you really getting value for what you pay for the flash defense?

 

I prefer the new system. Under the old model, you rolled 1d6/10 points and blinded for BOD phases. The new model blinds for BOD segments at 1d6/5 points. 6d6 old got you for a turn at 6 SPD, more at lower SPD and less at higher SPD. 12d6 new lasts 1 turn regardless of SPD. Flash is more powerful at high power/SPD levels, but less at the heroic range, now.

 

I like what it has done for flash defense. Before, 5 points dramatically reduced the effectiveness of Flash and 10 points pretty much eliminated it. Now, 5 points shaves off some of the pain, 10 points makes it pretty short term, and 15 points means you're generally safe, so there's some granularity.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: Flash, Flash Defense, Cost Vs. Value

 

There is something else to consider as well...

 

On a flash, you can get a second sense group for an extra 5 points (in general) - but you have to define which sense flash D works against, so say you have 15 pts sight flash D (a lot I know) to stop a 12d6 flash. The attacker pays an extra 5 pts to get you hearing, but you have to spend 15 more points to stop it.

[Vondy]

Re: Flash, Flash Defense, Cost Vs. Value

 

There is something else to consider as well...

 

On a flash, you can get a second sense group for an extra 5 points (in general) - but you have to define which sense flash D works against, so say you have 15 pts sight flash D (a lot I know) to stop a 12d6 flash. The attacker pays an extra 5 pts to get you hearing, but you have to spend 15 more points to stop it.

 

Could I take the Multiple SFX advantage on my flash defense to even out the cost disparity?

 

It might seem like a dink move, but the notion of being able to purchase an additional 12d6 flash that requires a separate defense (for all intensive purposes) for 5 points strikes me as being hard-coded dink-fu. Unintentional, but there. At least with foci doubling at 5 points its the same attack and you don't have to purchase your defenses again to guard against it. And you generally need some skills to use them effectively at one time, which also serves to balance it out a bit. This - with the flashes - strikes me as being a major balance disconnect.

 

That, or, allow flash defense to have a multiple sense adder at +3 per sense.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: Flash, Flash Defense, Cost Vs. Value

 

 

That, or, allow flash defense to have a multiple sense adder at +3 per sense.

 

The reason I mentioned it, is that it came up a number of sessions ago. We were thinking exactly the same solution.

[Vondy]

Re: Flash, Flash Defense, Cost Vs. Value

 

The reason I mentioned it' date=' is that it came up a number of sessions ago. We were thinking exactly the same solution. [/quote']

 

Great Minds...

[Kenn]

Re: Flash, Flash Defense, Cost Vs. Value

 

With the change of Flash in 5th edition, though, the value of Flash Defense was lessened. Under 4th edition rules, 5 pt. of Flash Defense protected one for 5 phases. for most characters, this was about a turn. (Longer if you were a 4 or less SPD, not as long if you were 6 SPD or higher.) Now that same 5 pt.s of Flash Defense protects you for 5 segments worth of time. That could be anywhere from 1 to 3 phases, typically. To get comparable defense, one would need 10 or 12 pts. of flash defense.

[Silbeg]

Re: Flash, Flash Defense, Cost Vs. Value

 

I definitely like the 5E version of Flash much better. The only place where I have concerns are the stacking of senses... For a very small cost (basically the cost of a die), you turn a 12d6 Flash vs. Sight (which is tough, but not insurmountable) into an 11d6 "Flash Bang" Flash vs Sight Group and Hearing Group... thus nullifying most characters' primary targeting sense, and primary non-targeting sense.

 

I have felt for quite a while that stacking the senses is too cheap.. while the mechanism for Flashes are actually much better (BODY -> Segments instead of Phases).

 

To me, a Flash vs. Sight Group + Hearing Group is really an MPA....

So, the above would be better expressed as: 7d6 Flash vs. Sight Group + 7d6 Flash vs. Hearing Group (this would be 54 AP).

 

You would probably link the two each other (it is legal to doubly-link powers)... and there you go. A much more balanced build, in my opinion.

[mattingly]

Re: Flash, Flash Defense, Cost Vs. Value

 

The extra cost for additional senses is per die. So instead of a 12d6 Slight Flash, you would get the 7d6 combined Flash.

[Starlight]

Re: Flash, Flash Defense, Cost Vs. Value

 

The extra cost for additional senses is per die. So instead of a 12d6 Slight Flash' date=' you [i']would[/i] get the 7d6 combined Flash.

 

An interesting idea, and with suitably adjusted costs might possibly be an improvement on the rules as written. However at this time you're wrong. The Flash Summary Table on p 176 of 5ER is split into two sections. The top section gives costs per D6. The lower section where extra senses are referred gives costs as Adders.

[Silbeg]

Re: Flash, Flash Defense, Cost Vs. Value

 

The extra cost for additional senses is per die. So instead of a 12d6 Slight Flash' date=' you [i']would[/i] get the 7d6 combined Flash.

Dave,

I am not sure where you are getting that from (unless you are suggesting a house rule). Per 5ER 176, it seems pretty clear to me that it is an adder to the power, not an adder to the per die cost. Hero Designer also seems to back this interpretation up.

 

I would love more insight, if you have it.

 

Thanks!

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Flash, Flash Defense, Cost Vs. Value

 

With the change of Flash in 5th edition' date=' though, the value of Flash Defense was lessened. Under 4th edition rules, 5 pt. of Flash Defense protected one for 5 phases. for most characters, this was about a turn. (Longer if you were a 4 or less SPD, not as long if you were 6 SPD or higher.) Now that same 5 pt.s of Flash Defense protects you for 5 segments worth of time. That could be anywhere from 1 to 3 phases, typically. To get comparable defense, one would need 10 or 12 pts. of flash defense.[/quote']

 

Agreed. However, I would say that Flash Defense was overly effective before, so the value reduction is a positive, not a negative. It was too cheap to buy virtual immunity to Flash attacks when compared to the cost of, say, adjustment power defenses or mental power defenses.

[NestorDRod]

Re: Flash, Flash Defense, Cost Vs. Value

 

Personally, I don't like the 5e rule, since it makes anything but very high-dice Flashes pretty much ineffective.

 

So, my character succeeds in Flashing someone for 3 segments. Unless the target is Speed 6 or higher, he'll lose maybe one action tops (and that if it occurs at just the right point in the Speed Chart). OK, so during that time, the target is DCV 0. Unfortunately, unless my PC has a Speed 5 or higher, he won't get to take advantage of that on his next action before the target recovers.

 

Essentially, you lose the ability to enact the classic action-movie scene of throwing a flash-bang into the room and rushing in to take out the disabled mooks.

 

Recovering by Segments deviates from the norm in the game. If I damage someone, they heal at a rate based on their REC. If I Transform someone, they recover in a similar manner. But if I affect a Sense, everyone recovers at the same rate?

 

People complained about Flash being overpowered, which IIRC is why the automatic Area Effect was removed in 4e. With this change now, Flash has become pretty much a waste of points.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: Flash, Flash Defense, Cost Vs. Value

 

So, my character succeeds in Flashing someone for 3 segments. Unless the target is Speed 6 or higher, he'll lose maybe one action tops (and that if it occurs at just the right point in the Speed Chart). OK, so during that time, the target is DCV 0. Unfortunately, unless my PC has a Speed 5 or higher, he won't get to take advantage of that on his next action before the target recovers.

 

Don't forget that 5th ed flash is 5 per d6 not 10.

 

So that 3d6 flash is only a 15 active point power after all. If you hit the target, then your teammates go after him, that is pretty potent for 15 points.

 

A 6 dice flash under 5th is going to drop someone for half a turn. same effect as the 3d6 flash under old system. Or using your example- your 3d6 under 5th, is only 1 1/2d d6 under fourth. Which would usually only flash one phase as well.

[NestorDRod]

Re: Flash, Flash Defense, Cost Vs. Value

 

Don't forget that 5th ed flash is 5 per d6 not 10.

 

So that 3d6 flash is only a 15 active point power after all. If you hit the target, then your teammates go after him, that is pretty potent for 15 points.

 

Well, unless your teammates have a) a higher SPD than you, or haven't acted yet on this Phase, they're in the same boat as you; they can't attack before the target recovers.

 

My gripe is based on an actual game situation. I was playing a holy-warrior type character and I had given him an AOE Flash, No Range defined as "Holy Light." Because of the campaign, it was limited to 30 AP, so it was a 3d6 Flash

 

The team was fighting some uber-enemy with a high SPD and oodles of CSLs and was basically mopping the floor with them. I realized that the PC's "Holy Light" was exactly what we needed to level the playing field.

 

So I called moving up to her and unleashing the attack. I roll, I hit, and get my 3 BOD on the damage roll. That's when it was revealed to me that 5e used Segments, not Phases, a big surprise to me.

 

The upshot was that not only did his teammates fail to take advantage of her Flashed state (they'd already acted that Phase) but she was back in action with no effect by the time her next action was up, and to add insult to injury, took advantage of the fact I had moved up to her to hit my PC and send him down to negative STUN in one attack.

 

Oh, and to make it even worse, the GM told me afterwards he had neglected to notice he had given the NPC Flash Defense, so the attack would have been utterly ineffective anyway. Double

 

A waste of points, period.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: Flash, Flash Defense, Cost Vs. Value

 

My gripe is based on an actual game situation. I was playing a holy-warrior type character and I had given him an AOE Flash, No Range defined as "Holy Light." Because of the campaign, it was limited to 30 AP, so it was a 3d6 Flash

 

So I called moving up to her and unleashing the attack. I roll, I hit, and get my 3 BOD on the damage roll. That's when it was revealed to me that 5e used Segments, not Phases, a big surprise to me.

 

Well the surprise is a bad thing, but the exact same effect would have happened under 4th ed - you would have had 1 1/2 d6 flash area, which would have resulted in one phase flash, and everything else would have followed.

 

The situation (especially the surprise of not knowing how it worked) was messed up, but I don't think it was the change in the rules.

[NestorDRod]

Re: Flash, Flash Defense, Cost Vs. Value

 

Well the surprise is a bad thing, but the exact same effect would have happened under 4th ed - you would have had 1 1/2 d6 flash area, which would have resulted in one phase flash, and everything else would have followed.

 

The situation (especially the surprise of not knowing how it worked) was messed up, but I don't think it was the change in the rules.

 

Well, when I saw the price change in 5e, I figured someone had realized taking the auto-AOE from Flash made it overpriced and had lowered the cost accordingly.

 

Had I been writing the character in 4e, I wouldn't have added the Flash in the first place, because of the prohibitive cost.

 

Which is all irrelevant to the point I was trying to make. Having Flash recovery be based on Segments rather than Phases causes the power to be less capable of properly modeling the effect it's inspired by.

 

IMO, the ideal construct for the Power would have the BODY result of the dice representing the number of the target's Phases that he is affected. So a higher SPD character would recover quicker.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: Flash, Flash Defense, Cost Vs. Value

 

Which is all irrelevant to the point I was trying to make. Having Flash recovery be based on Segments rather than Phases causes the power to be less capable of properly modeling the effect it's inspired by.

 

Ah. Sorry. Misunderstood.

 

IMO, the ideal construct for the Power would have the BODY result of the dice representing the number of the target's Phases that he is affected. So a higher SPD character would recover quicker.

 

Actually I think the fact that different people's speeds made them recover from flashes differently was one of the major reasons that the change was made to segment on the 4th to 5th switch. One man's feature is another man's bug.

 

*shrug*

 

Aside from the "extra sense group for +5 Points vs the Have to buy Flash D separately for each sense" I don't really have any problems with the current set up.

[Silbeg]

Re: Flash, Flash Defense, Cost Vs. Value

 

My gripe is based on an actual game situation. I was playing a holy-warrior type character and I had given him an AOE Flash' date=' No Range defined as "Holy Light." Because of the campaign, it was limited to 30 AP, so it was a 3d6 Flash[/quote']

 

This is exactly the reason that I really hate pure AP limits.

 

From the rest of your story, it sounds like the GM gave you an adversary that exceeded the possible capabilities of the PCs, and was probably not built under the same restrictions. The Flash DEF was nothing that you could really do anything about (but I as the GM would have probably tried to avoid giving the enemy that, since it sounds like she was pretty uber, and you needed ways to be able to affect her).

 

Without the Flash DEF in play, you and your party could have used better tactics to take advantage of the Flash. Had they held their actions for your Holy Light to take effect, they could have landed a blow in the 3 segments that the Flash would have been effective.

 

Of course, against a single target, coordinated attacks always help to reduce the target's DCV (though, given what you have already said about the enemy, I would guess the GM gave her Combat Sense IV as well... )

[Markdoc]

Re: Flash, Flash Defense, Cost Vs. Value

 

I think the problem, Nestor, is not that Flash is too expensive, but that in this case you got caught by the change in the rules - expecting one thing and getting another meant that you couldn't take advantage of it. Even a "puny" 3d6 flash can still be very effective when used with a delayed action, so that you can act again while your opponent is still blind.

 

And as noted, AP caps are generally a bad idea anyway - I regard them as a crutch for weak GM'ing.

 

But Flash was overpowered before. At college I played a paladin-type with a power exactly the same as the one you describe (the infamous Sir Flanghall of Ferlecht ) and he would routinely slaughter his way through crowd scenes with a combination of Flash and then whack the blind guys. At the GM's request I toned him down because he was simply too effective.

 

cheers, Mark

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Flash, Flash Defense, Cost Vs. Value

 

Personally, I don't like the 5e rule, since it makes anything but very high-dice Flashes pretty much ineffective.

 

So, my character succeeds in Flashing someone for 3 segments. Unless the target is Speed 6 or higher, he'll lose maybe one action tops (and that if it occurs at just the right point in the Speed Chart). OK, so during that time, the target is DCV 0. Unfortunately, unless my PC has a Speed 5 or higher, he won't get to take advantage of that on his next action before the target recovers.

 

So you have to use some tactics and this is a bad thing?

 

Essentially' date=' you lose the ability to enact the classic action-movie scene of throwing a flash-bang into the room and rushing in to take out the disabled mooks. [/quote']

 

In the classic movie action scene, the characters seem to reserve phases to throw the flash bang and then be immediately able to act afterwards. "I reserve until Segment 5 and throw in the flash/bang. Then I charge the room in segment 6".

 

People complained about Flash being overpowered' date=' which IIRC is why the automatic Area Effect was removed in 4e. With this change now, Flash has become pretty much a waste of points. [/quote']

 

I have a character who typically uses a 2 top 3 d6 Flash tacked on to his regular attack. It is a very effective support power.

 

Well' date=' unless your teammates have a) a higher SPD than you, or haven't acted yet on this Phase, they're in the same boat as you; they can't attack before the target recovers.[/quote']

 

Or you use some tactics and teamwork so your teammates reserve until you act.

 

My gripe is based on an actual game situation. I was playing a holy-warrior type character and I had given him an AOE Flash' date=' No Range defined as "Holy Light." Because of the campaign, it was limited to 30 AP, so it was a 3d6 Flash[/quote']

 

Clippingthe rest, it seems to me your gripe is based on not having read the rules and oplanned aorund how the ability would work. The fact that the opponent was immune to the attack doesn't help the situation either - phases or segments, you would still have been KO'd.

[NestorDRod]

Re: Flash, Flash Defense, Cost Vs. Value

 

Sigh.

 

The smart thing here would be just to drop this whole discussion, but hey, never let it be said I'm not a glutton for punishment.

 

You're right, I didn't read up on the changes to Flash. It was a simple case of versionitis; after playing Champions for 20+ years, I didn't go through the effort of reading every single page of 5e to catch every single change to the rules.

 

Allow me to explain something about the situation I described. I was not expecting the Flash to be a wildy successful maneuver; I certainly did not expect it to do more than lower the villain's monstruous DCV down to a bit more manageable level for a Phase, tops.

 

I was trying what I thought was a dramatic and cinematic solution to help at least nudge the odds a bit to our side. But instead of being at least somewhat helpful, it ended up a total bust, not because of the maneuver, but because the rules mechanics failed to live up to the expected effect.

 

That's what soured me to the Power. Nothing spoils the fun more for me than having the rules get in the way of the story.

 

It's like playing in a swashbuckling game and realizing that, following the RAW, the most likely outcome of trying to swing across the room on the chandelier is that your character will fall and break his fool neck (a situation that happened to me in another game altogether many moons ago).

[incrdbil]

Re: Flash, Flash Defense, Cost Vs. Value

 

Essentially, you lose the ability to enact the classic action-movie scene of throwing a flash-bang into the room and rushing in to take out the disabled mooks.

 

Mooks generally have much lower speeds than 5, and no flash defense at all.

 

Recovering by Segments deviates from the norm in the game. If I damage someone, they heal at a rate based on their REC. If I Transform someone, they recover in a similar manner. But if I affect a Sense, everyone recovers at the same rate?

 

Flash workds at a flat time rate because if it worked by character phases, the power wears off quicker based on SPD. For example, a speed 2 character vs a speed 6 character under the old rules was blinded 3 times longer. SPD has nothing to do with eyes clearing up from bing dazzled or ears to stop ringing. Unless we wanted to make Flash somehow affected by recovery or con in terms of becoming unaffected, a per-segment allocation of time of being flashed makes a lot more sense than basing it on the targets SPD.

 

Flas is better off now, ebcause before, 10 points of Flash Defense made you pretyt much flash immune. Now, 10 points of flash defense helps, but a 60 pt flash attack will still get you for a little while on average. Defenses are, of course, supposed to be cheaper than attacks, but Flash Defense was way too effective of a defense under the old version.