Suprised by the "free magic" in FH?

[Mr. Negative]

Is anyone else suprised by the level of "free magic" handouts suggested in FH?

 

Some of their systems give the caster a free Variable Power Pool. Others give the caster a huge discount on a variable power pool (say 80%), but place limitations on it which, to my eye, don't limit it nearly that much.

 

Two of the systems discount all spells purchased by 80%, and while one requires a Perk purchase, and the other puts limitations on spell-casting (power, duration, and frequency), neither amounts to a -4 limitation in my eyes.

 

One system simply doubles the power of any attack spell against someone whose True Name you know (at no cost increase at all).

 

One system requires you to buy a Perk to be a wizard, and then a skill for each "Circle" of magic, but then gives you access to all the spells in that circle for free. This one is the most confusing, as it lists Total costs for each spell, but specifically says "this allows him to try and cast any spell from those three circles" referencing a wizard who has skills in three circles of magic.

 

While, of course, these are just suggested magic systems, and any GM is free to use them, or create any magic system that he like on his own, I was still really suprised to see points costs thrown out the window. Each of these systems gives Wizards substantially more power than they are paying points for. While this is, of course, up to the GM, I didn't see any real mention of WHY this is necessary, or how to balance the game.

 

It seems that to me, doing so is either going to make everyone want to play a wizard (which may be what you are going for), as wizards get "free points". They get abilities that they are not paying for. Either that, or it is going to really discourage the non-spell casters, as they are paying full points for their abilities, but see their friends getting stuff at a steep discount.

 

Not only was this jarring coming from HERO, where there has always been an emphasis on "charging what it's worth" for powers, but it was also suprising to see no discussion of what impact of such deep discounting of magical ability would have on game balance and party composition.

 

I really expected to see more information and ideas on how to get various systems of magic to work "within" the pay-for-what-you-get methodology of HERO and less "give-it-away" systems that dispensed with the normal cost-advantage-limitation structure. There's about one page (front and back) on buying spells through normal structures (Individual Purchase and Spell Frameworks like VPP, Multipowers, and EC), and even part of that real estate is devoted to a Spell Skills idea where you buy a skill roll for spells, but don't pay the Real Point cost of the spell itself (again, with no mention of how this might affect game/points balance).

 

There is so much complexity available for good magic systems using Multipowers and Variable Power Pools, and both only got a few paragraphs in the book. Entire magic systems could be constructed around a carefully crafted VPP, and the system would be "points-balanced". Instead, we get systems that throw the points structure out the window. This is a viable option (it's your game), but there was no corresponding discussion of what impact that might have on the game (do fighters get all the martial maneuvers for free?).

[OddHat]

I was surprised by this as well. It would be interesting to hear some of the thinking behind it.

 

At a guess, I'd say that it was designed to allow for higher powered but tightly GM controlled magic, without requiring 350 point + FH campaigns.

 

Personally, when I run FH 5th I'll be using a standard VPP set up + required limits for magicians, with adjustment powers available for getting the point boosts required for really big 135+ active point spells.

[Snarf]

I've heard this was done to make buying magic more like buying conventional fighting abilities. Fighters pay points for skills and get the equipment for free, so mages should buy skills and get spells for free.

[Mr. Negative]

Originally posted by Snarf

I've heard this was done to make buying magic more like buying conventional fighting abilities. Fighters pay points for skills and get the equipment for free, so mages should buy skills and get spells for free.

 

This was something that I should have thought of, but I didn't. It arguably makes sense, but I'm going to argue it:

 

First, if this is a concern, make fighters pay points for equipment, as there are already well-established, tested rules for such (Champions), instead of using a mechanic that doesn't fit within the game.

 

Second, "fighters" aren't the only ones who can use equipment. There's nothing from preventing the wizard from hiding behind a pavise, and shooting the opposition with a poisoned quarrel from a crossbow.

 

Third, the points balance is way off. Firstly, most equipment, as it is a focus and Independent, would ring in at relatively few points, while some of these spells are easily 30-60 real points. Secondly, the equipment CAN be stolen, lost, or damaged, while a Perk and a Skill are relatively hard to lose.

 

I'm not arguing with you that this wasn't the reason that these magic systems were created. I haven't heard anything one way or the other, so you may well be correct (and it's certainly plausible). I am, however, disappointed that a "gamer's toolkit" didn't take us "inside" the process so we could see the metagaming reasoning behind these systems, or discuss the game-effects that such tinkering might have. Experienced GMs will undoubtedly spot the effects, but a newer GM might be quite suprised in the differences between purchasing each spell individually and some of the systems involved. Even an additional paragraph for each magic system talking about the type of magic use that this system enables (rather than just the "role-playing feel" that it creates) would have been a little more useful. Something along the lines of:

 

As wizards can use ANY spell within their spell circles, wizards will be very flexible if there are a sufficient number of circles, each with many spells. Wizards will also tend to take a high skill level to allow them to cast the most difficult spells. If either of these is disruptive to your game, you might wish to limit this in some manner. You could tightly focus each circle, making sure that each circle has strongly themed spells (which would serve to limit the flexibilty of wizards). You could not provide overly powerful spells for each circle, so that there are no such "uber-spells" available. You might also wish to share your concerns with the player, and encourage her not to take a wide variety of Circle Skills, and not to buy up the skills to such high levels, in order to fit the character better into your campaign. Also be aware that with this system, wizardry is very affordable, so that many players may wish to play a wizard, or to have skill in at least one circle of magic. If this is not desired, you may need to talk to your players about the rarity of spell-casters within your campaign, or increase the cost of the Wizard Perk until only those players who wish to focus their character around spell-casting are willing to pay the cost (thus discouraging casual sorcerors).

[Snarf]

First, if this is a concern, make fighters pay points for equipment, as there are already well-established, tested rules for such (Champions), instead of using a mechanic that doesn't fit within the game.

That's fine for a superheroic game, but you need free stuff rules for heroic games. Free or cheap in character points at any rate, you should still make people pay big bucks for good equipment or spell ingredients.

 

I haven't got a copy of Fantasy Hero yet, but from your complaints it sounds like there wasn't enough rules philosophy/metagame type discussion to make everything clear.

[Snarf]

...while one requires a Perk purchase...

This sounds like a bad idea. At the very least, powerful mages should be costing more than weak mages.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Suprised by the "free magic" in FH?

 

Originally posted by Mr. Negative

Is anyone else suprised by the level of "free magic" handouts suggested in FH?

 

I wasn't, but then I've created many a magic system that worked similarly.

 

Each of these systems gives Wizards substantially more power than they are paying points for. While this is, of course, up to the GM, I didn't see any real mention of WHY this is necessary, or how to balance the game.

 

I'd guess it's because warriors can go around in 8 DEF Armor, throwing ~3d6 killing attacks, without paying any points for the privilege. With all the wizards I've played, I never had a problem with it, but then I built wizards with 8 DEF magical protection, throwing 4d6 killing attacks.

[AnotherSkip]

Another set of points would be:

 

trying to simulate certain types of magic.

 

when you are trying to simulate some of the real magics out there is fantasy land you sometimes need either a biiig crowbar to play them in the Hero System or you need to do what the creators did and wave away the rules...

 

and sometimes the rules don't accurately reflect the utility of the magics (or lack thereof)

 

also by the by there is a scaling perk system for mages...

i dont believe it is one perk to rule them all.

 

also the examples in teh book are just samples of how it is okay to play the game by your rules, not necessarily the Champions way.

[sbarron]

Originally posted by AnotherSkip

also the examples in teh book are just samples of how it is okay to play the game by your rules, not necessarily the Champions way.

I assumed that this was the reason for the inclusion of these magic systems. Hero Systems whole point is that you can make any type of character you want, and play any type of game. The rules as presented make various types of games (magic systems) difficult to simulate unless you are willing to tweak the rules. I think these ideas are there to demonstrate that.

[Killer Shrike]

Making a good magic system is the hardest part of running Fantasy HERO, and it can be difficult to shoe horn some magic systems into any of the three Power Frameworks for 1 reason or another.

 

If you are trying for a cosistent approach to magic without being trammeled by the strictures placed upon the existing frameworks which predominantly were created for Superhero campaigns, alternate methods such as those present are very enticing.

 

Personally I prefer the VPP method, but Im not ignorant as to some of the arbitrary limits this imposes or the major effect it has on the point scale necessary to allow big magic.

 

I was glad to see some alternate outside-the-box approaches. They are there to consider and use if you want as the GM. The Magic System in place in a given game is determined by the GM afterall, and is a meta system within the game itself. Because its a GM controlled aspect of the game, there's no abuse potential by players building powers to use various suggestions in FH. The GM tells the player how the magic works and they are bound by that, not the other way around.

 

 

If it helps, just think of the suggestions as alternate frameworks with very small overhead. And of course, just disregard them if you dont like/agree with them......

[Mr. Negative]

Oh, I don't disagree with the alternate magic systems, in the least.

 

I'm just suprised by the prevalence of magic systems presented that offer substantial discounts on spellcasting. There were very few systems that actually suggested paying full price for spells, and no systems written up that use the power frameworks presented in HERO.

 

I was suprised by this because, to me, HERO has a very good structure for creating several really interesting systems of magic, as a basic system. There are a multitude of systems using just real points and limitations (especially if you factor in an END reserve), and once you consider systems using a multipower, a VPP, or an elemental control, you can really create some wild and different systems. However, FH largely just glossed over those options, in my opinion.

 

Instead, it presented a variety of systems that work outside of the normal structure of the game (if there is such a thing). I just found that odd, since there are such a plethora of cool ideas within the game. The magic system section read as if it were written for someone who was determined to use a particular magic system and wouldn't use HERO unless they were sure HERO could emulate their magic system sufficiently. That isn't, in and of itself, a bad idea. I'm all for convincing people to free their minds and let HERO into their lives. However, by focusing the magic system chapter on extra-HERO systems, I feel a bit cheated, as if HERO, by itself, weren't "cool enough" to generate neat magic systems, and GM license were necessary, rather than optional.

 

The previous chapter on designing magic was VERY useful and well-written, but the magic systems themselves really read (to me, of course) as if they were written for non-HERO gamers, as a inducement to the system.

[Herolover]

When I got the playtest manuscript for Fantasy HERO I was surprised by the "non-standardard rules" magic systems as well, but I am glad they are now official. Remember under the last edition of Fantasy HERO there wasn’t any point saving methods and power pools of any kind were discouraged.

 

The reason the "non-standard rules" magic systems were included, IMO, evolve from two things.

 

1) Most spellcasters in RPG's and literature have a wide and varied amount of spells.

2) To balance the spellcaster with the non-spellcaster.

 

Using the standard HERO creation system you either end up with spellcasters that can only cast a few spells or you end up with monster non-spellcasters. Using the normal methods of creation you are not going to have spellcasters with many spells, which as I pointed out above is not what most people read or play when they read or play other Fantasy games. Also, the spellcaster is spending are more points on his spells than the non-spellcaster is on his skills.

 

The fighter gets all his equipment character point free. Now, you can say, well the wizard gets his equipment free too. The problem is in fantasy do you want your wizard to be behind a door using a poison blowgun or casting spells? When people think of fantasy they think of wizards casting spells. A fighter uses weapons a wizard cast spells.

 

You could make everyone purchase equipment. The problem with this is then you run around with 300 point characters and how do you tell the fighter, “Yes, there is that extra-fine crossbow on the ground, but unless you have the points to purchase it you can’t have it.†Once again, not very fantasy like. Also, this doesn’t answer the real problem, because the spellcaster, to get a large and varied amount of spells, is still pumping so many of his points into spells that he doesn’t have enough points left over to buy equipment.

 

So the question has always been asked, “How do you fix this?â€

 

VPP’s, Multipowers, and EC’s go a long way toward fixing the problems. However, each method has its own faults.

VPP’s can be VERY unbalancing, but are usable with enough limitations. If you don’t like the “non-standard rules†methods then I highly recommend this method.

 

Multipowers are very good, but then you have to deal with having different spells up at the same time. The fact that limitations on spells mean nothing because many slots will be ultras and you can’t go below 1 point in cost.

 

EC’s are neat, but you end up with spells that don’t meet the active point cost limit and EC’s can become expensive quick. So again, you haven’t helped the spellcaster get a lot of varied spells.

 

The alternate magic systems in the new Fantasy HERO go a long way toward answering some of these questions.

[tiger]

My plan at the moment, not having FH still using the PDF, is to have mages and clerics buy a perk for their magic use.

 

Then buy spells as a skill. I thinking of having the minus to the magic roll use the final cost instead of the active cost. The reason is if you use the skill theroy and only use the active cost, what's the point of limitations on spells at all.

 

Figure I'll start with this and through trail and play see where it leads us.