Hard sci-fi adventures?

[Tom Carman]

Re: Hard sci-fi adventures?

 

And I expect that vacuum armor will be like spacesuits today: you don't want to stay in it more than 6 hours at a stretch. Suiting up is likely to be a multi-minute process if the suits are flexible enough so you have any kind of dexterity while in the suit. And, suits will be bulky, and space is always going to be at a premium in a spaceship, so defenders will have to go to the lockers where suits are held, break out the suits, get into them. A few more seconds in the "general quarters" drill.

 

A mitten suit -- one more suited for bludgeoning combat -- could be faster to get into, but since the whole crew would have to suit up and remain functional at the helm and other systems controls, the suits for the guys who actually have to push buttons or type commands on a keyboard will still remain relatively delicate and slow to get into.

 

You are assuming current-standard pressure suits here; there is also the "skin suit" or "space activity suit" concept. Granted, this approach is not without problems as well - they would need to be individually tailored to specific users, even more so than pressure suits. Then again... I have a faint recollection in the back of my head of a story in which skin suits were refined to the point of being the standard basic spacer clothing, needing only gloves and a helmet for basic vacuum protection.

[Spence]

Re: Hard sci-fi adventures?

 

You are assuming current-standard pressure suits here; there is also the "skin suit" or "space activity suit" concept. Granted' date=' this approach is not without problems as well - they would need to be individually tailored to specific users, even more so than pressure suits. Then again... I have a faint recollection in the back of my head of a story in which skin suits were refined to the point of being the standard basic spacer clothing, needing only gloves and a helmet for basic vacuum protection.[/quote']

 

Good post there....

 

One of the things I notice is the recurrent knee jerk to force everything into ‘what we know and can understand now’. Especially from the board members who are actually from the scientific/engineering community. I sometimes think they forget that most of the scientific communities ‘known truths’ are only accurate until the next discovery.

 

The idea of a near future ‘skinsuit’ or ‘coverall’ that can protect a person in vacuum and yet be flexible and comfortable enough to where as the everyday work suit is not implausible at all. Anymore than the thought that radar could be reduced from a the behemoth that needed multiple big rigs to carry, down to a box and antenna that can be carried by one man and give 100 times more detection range and definitely more accurate resolution intelligence.

 

My mental picture of the scientific community is fast changing from that of the innovative and flexible, to a dark room filled inquisition style cloaked priests waiting on the Master to decide if the new discovery meets acceptable standards before it can be discussed.

[ajackson]

Re: Hard sci-fi adventures?

 

One of the things I notice is the recurrent knee jerk to force everything into ‘what we know and can understand now’.

That's because this is the 'hard' SF thread, and while hard sf can get into pretty off-the-wall mechanics, it shouldn't break known physical laws.

[Spence]

Re: Hard sci-fi adventures?

 

That's because this is the 'hard' SF thread' date=' and while hard sf can get into pretty off-the-wall mechanics, it shouldn't break known physical laws.[/quote']

 

And what are you talking about?

 

We’re not discussing antigravity and warp coils here. But improved tech.

 

Hmmmm...last time I looked there are a lot of things, including skinsuits, that are extremely close to being out there. The concept of skinsuit doesn't break any laws of physics I know of. Similarly they are currently working on several applications for ‘smart materials’. The current ones are used in protective gear, but like concepts could be reasonably be applied to temp/pressure applications as well as impact related ones.

 

The thought of using bacteria to convert organic waste to fuel looks much more promising than some of the other alternative power sources that require large storage banks and converters to make them usable.

 

But I guess we should demand that the use of any kind of FTL travel be eliminated form all 'true' hard scifi as well. Oh and while we are at it, we need to eliminate any scifi based on colonies and long term space stations too since we know that long term zero and low gravity results in life threatening loss of skeletal integrity.

 

Hard Scifi is not defined as ‘fiction only using current technology’. It is science fiction that uses fictional technology that maintains a plausible and coherent concept.

 

Oh, pardon me, I forgot to ask permission of the Master before venturing an opinion.

 

[Cancer]

Re: Hard sci-fi adventures?

 

Actually, skinsuits make a great deal of sense. It's just that if you are going to have boarding of ships in your campaign, we've already seen arguments that that leads to melee combat, and armor suits are a known defensive measure for melee combat. I would expect, in fact, that armor suits would be worn over skinsuits, except for helmets unless the skinsuit helmets are really small.

[ajackson]

Re: Hard sci-fi adventures?

 

Actually' date=' skinsuits make a great deal of sense. It's just that if you are going to have boarding of ships in your campaign, we've already seen arguments that that leads to melee combat, and armor suits are a known defensive measure for melee combat.[/quote']

It's actually likely that skinsuits would be an effective defensive measure against melee combat -- in the end, strength-based weapons just aren't all that effective, though you could always use a bang stick, or even more powerful variants, such as a shaped charge on a stick.

 

In practice, I think most people fighting on board ships will have the theory of 'I have a better chance of patching holes in equipment than patching holes in me, so I'll use a weapon that lets me win'.

[Kristopher]

Re: Hard sci-fi adventures?

 

It's actually likely that skinsuits would be an effective defensive measure against melee combat -- in the end' date=' strength-based weapons just aren't all that effective, though you could always use a bang stick, or even more powerful variants, such as a shaped charge on a stick.

 

Um... huh?

 

Have you ever seen what a sword or mace or axe does to unprotected flesh and bone? You think a flexible skintight garment is going to protect someone from that?

[ajackson]

Re: Hard sci-fi adventures?

 

Have you ever seen what a sword or mace or axe does to unprotected flesh and bone? You think a flexible skintight garment is going to protect someone from that?

Quite possibly; it's somewhat overdesigned, but not as much as you might think. A skinsuit that you can actually move about in won't be simple materials, it will be smart materials that apply and remove tension on demand (otherwise moving about in vacuum is very difficult; making joints that bend properly is a major challenge of spacesuit design), and it will need to have heat transfer systems (sweating won't do you any good in a spacesuit), probably making over thickness similar to a wetsuit. It's not that much overdesign to make the suit out of materials tough enough to withstand a blade, which go rigid on impact.

[Nyrath]

Re: Hard sci-fi adventures?

 

You are assuming current-standard pressure suits here; there is also the "skin suit" or "space activity suit" concept. Granted' date=' this approach is not without problems as well - they would need to be individually tailored to specific users, even more so than pressure suits. Then again... I have a faint recollection in the back of my head of a story in which skin suits were refined to the point of being the standard basic spacer clothing, needing only gloves and a helmet for basic vacuum protection.[/quote']

 

Yes, also know as the "Mechanical Counter Pressure Suit".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_activity_suit

http://www.marssociety.org.au/marsskin.php

http://www.projectrho.com/rocket/rocket3m.html (scroll down to "Mechanical Counter Pressure Suit")

 

The story you are thinking about is probably one of the Honor Harrington novels, but it also appears prominently in "Tinker" and EXILED TO GLORY by Jerry Pournelle.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spacesuits_in_fiction#Skintight_spacesuits

 

Pournelle notes that such suits might be improved by a loose overall. This is because such a suit is about as modest as wearing a coat of paint.

[Nyrath]

Re: Hard sci-fi adventures?

 

Um... huh?

 

Have you ever seen what a sword or mace or axe does to unprotected flesh and bone? You think a flexible skintight garment is going to protect someone from that?

Well, there is also the minor matter of using such a weapon in free fall. As you draw back for the strike, Newton's Laws will make your body rotate in the opposite direction. This is why a hammer is incredibly difficult to use in free fall.

[Kristopher]

Re: Hard sci-fi adventures?

 

Well' date=' there is also the minor matter of using such a weapon in free fall. As you draw back for the strike, Newton's Laws will make your body rotate in the opposite direction. This is why a hammer is incredibly difficult to use in free fall.[/quote']

 

OK, that's an objection that makes sense... weapons would have to be one-handed so you could get a grip with the other hand on something bolted down. Freefall melee combat would be a rather unique skill, I think.

[L. Marcus]

Re: Hard sci-fi adventures?

 

Grab your opponent first -- then punch.

[ajackson]

Re: Hard sci-fi adventures?

 

Grab your opponent first -- then punch.

Even then, your momentum is working against you. The easiest way to get high force (which would actually make free fall combat quite dangerous) would basically be doing leaping movethroughs or movebys.

[Nyrath]

Re: Hard sci-fi adventures?

 

OK' date=' that's an objection that makes sense... weapons would have to be one-handed so you could get a grip with the other hand on something bolted down. Freefall melee combat would be a rather unique skill, I think.[/quote']

Somebody mentioned that one can use similar tactics to the ones used by, say, US Navy SEALS for hand-to-hand combat underwater while wearing SCUBA gear.

[pinecone]

Re: Hard sci-fi adventures?

 

Shoot, why not big Clamps with electric moters....attach to foe, and let'er rip! (or umm crush...)

[ajackson]

Re: Hard sci-fi adventures?

 

Somebody mentioned that one can use similar tactics to the ones used by' date=' say, US Navy SEALS for hand-to-hand combat underwater while wearing SCUBA gear.[/quote']

Air has considerably lower viscosity than water; I'm not sure how really relevant this is.

[Cancer]

Re: Hard sci-fi adventures?

 

Grab your opponent first -- then punch.

 

Like ice hockey fights.

[Nyrath]

Re: Hard sci-fi adventures?

 

Air has considerably lower viscosity than water; I'm not sure how really relevant this is.

Well, it does share the enhanced difficulty with Newton's Laws that one finds in a microgravity environment. For instance, in both cases, the combatant who has a solid object to brace on has an advantage over a free-floating combatant.

[Nyrath]

Re: Hard sci-fi adventures?

 

Shoot' date=' why not big Clamps with electric moters....attack to foe, and let'er rip! (or umm crush...)[/quote']

I seem to remember a novel by Harry Harrison that featured weapons like this. They were like giant scissors. You carried a couple on your belt.

 

In combat, you'd try to attach one to your opponent's arms or legs and hit the "on" button. Your opponent would abruptly become less interested in attacking you and more interested in removing the weapon before it snipped off their leg.

[Spence]

Re: Hard sci-fi adventures?

 

Air has considerably lower viscosity than water; I'm not sure how really relevant this is.

 

NASA uses full immersion in a pool to simulate/train Astronauts for missions so my guess is there is enough similarity as far as movement is concerned. At least for comparisons.

[L. Marcus]

Re: Hard sci-fi adventures?

 

Well, the guys in the pools seldom engage in very energic movements, I think. If they tried to punch something, I'd guess they would feel they're in a wet environment rather than air.

[Nyrath]

Re: Hard sci-fi adventures?

 

I seem to remember a novel by Harry Harrison that featured weapons like this. They were like giant scissors. You carried a couple on your belt.

 

In combat, you'd try to attach one to your opponent's arms or legs and hit the "on" button. Your opponent would abruptly become less interested in attacking you and more interested in removing the weapon before it snipped off their leg.

 

It is apparently in the anthology Body Armor: 2000 (ed. Joe Haldeman), and it may or may not be by Harry Harrision.

 

"drillgers" -- Diamond drill with gas vents to propell it forward

 

scissor-clamps -- hydraulic scissors designed to cut your leg off -- slowly.

 

swords and axes -- each with propellants to move the blade by reaction as well as force of arm

 

cattle-prods -- electric shock (useful only against non-insulated suits)

[Alibear]

Re: Hard sci-fi adventures?

 

I seem to remember a novel by Harry Harrison that featured weapons like this. They were like giant scissors. You carried a couple on your belt.

 

In combat, you'd try to attach one to your opponent's arms or legs and hit the "on" button. Your opponent would abruptly become less interested in attacking you and more interested in removing the weapon before it snipped off their leg.

 

 

Sorta like firemen use to cut people out of cars?

[Nyrath]

Re: Hard sci-fi adventures?

 

Sorta like firemen use to cut people out of cars?

Exactly. Except a bit more compact so one person can carry it.

 

One would think that whipping one out and waving it at your opponent would count as a presence attack.

[ajackson]

Re: Hard sci-fi adventures?

 

Now, how is this device superior to a limpet mine? If you're going to be attaching something to someone anyway, you might as well attach a shaped charge. Just give it a sticky surface (glue, or maybe a gecko grip), slap it on, move back, and try to avoid the splatter.