Limiting Combat Levels

[Robot_Nixon]

I'm a new hero player but have a few champion games under my belt. However, this is the first time GMing hero. My players tried 4th Ed. D&D and we didn't like it so much. I talked them into trying Fantasy Hero and we're making characters.

 

My problem started when I had a player that decided to make a minimally effective fighter type and simply overload with combat levels. I like the freedom of the hero system, but I'd like to limit the raw power of starting characters. I suppose the best way to say it Is I would like the characters to start deep, but not powerful. Design wide skills and not tall power in other words.

 

Does anyone have ideas or a link to a house rule that would allow me to limit how many combat levels can be bought at first, and a reasonable way to limit combat levels gained per XP points or time played that doesn't stagnate while still providing limits to be overcome in later character growth?

 

I don't mind making up my own, but being new to Hero GMing I think I may make it too restrictive or too liberal. I would like to see something that has been used successfully as a starting point.

 

TIA, RN

[Manic Typist]

Re: Limiting Combat Levels

 

I would simply you tell them what the CV (OCV/DCV) cap is for the first part of your game.

 

So, you can say "Build your characters how you wish, but you can't have a CV higher than 8/10/whatever through any combination of maneuvers or Combat Skill Levels, no STRs above...." etc.

 

Double check the sheets, and if they go above the limits you told them, tell them they need to trim some points.

 

You can also say "OK, we've been in this campaign for six months. If you wish, you may now spend your points to increase your CV, but may go no higher than 12/whatever" etc.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Limiting Combat Levels

 

This is my D&D3e to HERO System conversion, which might still have some things of use to you.

 

As far as limiting CSL's, you can put whatever limit seems right to you as the GM. If you want to put an algorithm on it, go with total character points divided by some number. It self scales. Something like:

 

*Max CV: 8 + Total Character Points / X

 

where X is 25, 50 , 75, 100, etc to hit the range you are looking for. Normal HERO rounding rules should generally apply, so that 176 / 50 = 4 not 3, or 151 / 100 = 2 not 1.

 

(*Note that this method also takes high DEX into account)

[Eosin]

Re: Limiting Combat Levels

 

What's "Overload" -- it really means different things to different people. In one game Fighter-Boy may have a DEX of 14 with 6 levels with his Sword and be "overloaded". The same Fighter-Boy built with a DEX of 14, 18 Points in Martial Arts, a free +3 DCV Shield, and +2 HTH Combat is posting considerably higher combat values and is not considered "overloaded" because he only bought "2 Combat Levels."

 

I like Shrikes method but will go on to add that most people who are buying a kaboodle of CV Levels generally don't understand the dynamics of Hero or are aiming for a one trick pony (it is awful expensive to by 8 levels of HTH).

 

I might show the player similar builds... i.e. "these are a few starting builds for a ranger - take a look at them to see how the character needs to be rounded."

 

My rule of thumb, which won't solve this, is players should spend no more than half their points on stats. Keep it somewhere in the 40-60% of total point range. 40% for weak, skill based characters like scholars and 60% for the brutish fighter types who are weak on the noggin power.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Limiting Combat Levels

 

You could also try a Rule Of X, one I've seen tried is a Speed + CV = 15 or less for Heroic Games.

 

It works OK, but at some point you'll want to raise the total as the characters gain Experience. Killer Shrike's method self scales - so it might be easier and better to use that one.

[Nolgroth]

Re: Limiting Combat Levels

 

As far as limiting CSL's, you can put whatever limit seems right to you as the GM. If you want to put an algorithm on it, go with total character points divided by some number. It self scales. Something like:

 

*Max CV: 8 + Total Character Points / X

 

where X is 25, 50 , 75, 100, etc to hit the range you are looking for. Normal HERO rounding rules should generally apply, so that 176 / 50 = 4 not 3, or 151 / 100 = 2 not 1.

 

(*Note that this method also takes high DEX into account)

I like this one. I plan on using it in the future. Repped.

[Robot_Nixon]

Re: Limiting Combat Levels

 

So this is his character, I must preface by saying while the guy looks like a powergamer, it's not that mentality that drives him. He just wants little effort. In D&D he picks fighters, maxes strength then constitution and then doesn't care about the rest. He's done making his character in minutes or less and he's ready to go and unconcerned about his depth or even his weaknesses.

 

I think he is taking the same route here but due to Hero's more complex system (and to him the very fact he has so many choices equates to complexity) that he builds something in a few moments and then when he gets to the point where he should be done in D&D he stops building.

 

He basically built a 90 point character with 75 points of disadvantages and when he saw he had 60 points left he skimmed through the book to see how he could dump a quick 60 points and found levels. He could relate to the word 'level' and bought all he could with the remaining points. (it wasn't exactly 60 points but close enough)

 

The one area where he really did get into Hero was the disadvantages, so I am loathe to ask him to just remove some and go with a 90 point character.

 

The problem for me is that he doesn't understand that the way he spent his 150 points gave him a standard superhero CV and made the few skills he has almost cosmically powered! He sees he spent 150 points and the others spent 150 points... equal characters.

 

Player: Orlo Blackhand

Val    Char    Cost
18    STR    8
18    DEX    24
18    CON    16
13    BODY    6
10    INT    0
13    EGO    6
15    PRE    5
8    COM    -1

4    PD    0
4    ED    0
3    SPD    2
8    REC    0
36    END    0
31    STUN    0

6"    RUN    0
2"    SWIM    0
3 1/2"    LEAP    0
Characteristics Cost: 66



Cost    Skill
3    Armorsmith 13-
3    Climbing 13-
3    Fast Draw 13-
2    Navigation (Land) 11-
3    Streetwise 12-
5    Survival 12-
5    WF:  Common Melee Weapons, Common Missile Weapons, Flails
60    +6 Overall
Skills Cost: 84



Total Character Cost: 150

Pts.    Disadvantage
20    Berserker:  (Uncommon), go 8-, recover 11-, Berserk
10    Reputation:  Reckless and Unreliable, 11-
10    Psychological Limitation:  Alcoholic (Common, Moderate)
15    Psychological Limitation:  Will not harm a child (Uncommon, Total)
10    Mark of the Honorless:  Forehead is branded with the sign of someone that has deserted military service and been imprisoned for that crime. (Easily Concealed; Always Noticed and Causes Major Reaction; Detectable By Commonly-Used Senses)
5    Distinctive Features:  Facial scars (Easily Concealed; Noticed and Recognizable; Detectable By Commonly-Used Senses)
5    Money:  Poor
Disadvantage Points: 75
Base Points: 75
Experience Required: 0
Total Experience Available: 0
Experience Unspent: 0

RN

 

Edit: Almost forgot. I had considered using the method suggested and just say for every X amount of points you can add a combat level. To be precise it was to be 3 total levels from all sources at start, and then every 50 points you could gain 2 more (not 1 for every 25 points). But I don't know if this is super slow or too fast, and while I could experiment with that value, if this game is boring it's back to D&D we go, and frankly I am tired of 3.5 and don't like 4ed. SO I was hoping some of the board vets could give me something a bit more tried and true (as opposed to a generic rule of thumb).

[ghost-angel]

Re: Limiting Combat Levels

 

Almost Skill Bereft. A sure way to get tromped in a Heroic Game.

 

A few things to get him a little more into Hero - and to show there's more than Hit/Get Hit.

 

Create a Martial Arts Pacakge for him, that could take up to 20+ points.

 

Specialize the Skill Levels to be a little more interesting. Some Hit Location ones, a few Hand To Hand ones.

 

And add some Skills! Suggest the following:

Breakfall

Riding

Area Knowledge

Defensive Maneuver

Stealth

Shadowing

some pertinent Knowledge Skills to the campaign world.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Limiting Combat Levels

 

A rule of thumb is a "tried and true". It's just the laymans term for a heuristic.

 

That semantic quibble aside, I've put up enough resources to choke a horse around how to model a Fantasy campaign. including how to scale it, and also including detailed notes specific to catering to D&D-forged sensibilities; follow the links and do some reading. Others have posted a good bit of material too. And there's also Fantasy HERO itself, aka the Fantasy RPG Phonebook. Basically, there are a plethora of resources available to you needing only an investment in time from you to utilize.

 

 

If you want a reeeeealy easy way to go, just let him have whatever he wants. If he spends a ton of point to improve his "to hit" chances, so what -- he'll rarely miss. But of course since he overspent / overspecialized he'll suffer for it in other areas. Dude wants an OCV of 30 and the average opponent has a DCV of 3? {shrug}. Ok. That's a suckers bet, if you ask me. As the old expression goes, "enough is as good as a feast".

 

 

If that's not palatable, cutting thru all the BS, just think of OCV and DCV in relative terms, not in flat numbers. It doesn't matter if a character has an OCV of 3, 10, or 200 per se; what really matters is if on average after subtracting their opponents DCV if they are at a plus or minus differential, and how much of one. +5 OCV over DCV is really about as good as you ever need to be. If you are planning to be Mr. Headshot or something, +8 at the outside. Anything more than that is going to be a total and absolute waste 99% of the time.

[Robot_Nixon]

Re: Limiting Combat Levels

 

I suggested martial arts, his first reaction was he didn't want to play a monk. I even designed a weapon kata martial art for him and explained it wasn't bruce lee martial arts but a skilled fighter's combat moves and different sword attacks. This got his interest but when he saw the moves and the values his eyes glazed over and said no.

 

He's not stupid, he just likes simple characters. He doesn't want choices in battle. I know in text he sounds like a real dullard, but this isn't the case, if anything he is an explorer. He likes the worlds I design, he likes to imagine himself walking through the villages and dungeons, he really does get into his character however two dimensional it may be. He just doesn't want to be faced with more than a couple of choices in combat or even gameplay for that matter.

 

I suppose it's easiest to say he's there for the stories.

[Robot_Nixon]

Re: Limiting Combat Levels

 

A rule of thumb is a "tried and true". It's just the laymans term for a heuristic.

 

I suppose what I meant was a specific application of a generic rule of thumb that others have found to be not too slow, or not too generous in this situation. I understand the ability to limit by points or time (in fact I believe those very words appear in my first post) I was looking more for a specific value in those two options that others might have found to work well.

[Manic Typist]

Re: Limiting Combat Levels

 

Design his character for him.

 

That keeps it really simple for him, right? Keep it as streamlined as possible.

 

Why not let him be a bit overpowered, at least in one area? Let him be the Unstoppable Storm... that the rest of the party has to maneuver into position and point in the right direction. Not a lot, mind you... but a bit. Evaluate the rest of the group's playstyles.

[Vulcan]

Re: Limiting Combat Levels

 

You want to encourage this guy to branch out? Make the first six game sessions all investigation/social.

 

Even with six overall levels, he's going to be out of his element, because levels don't add into skills you don't have.

 

Or you could just tell him no, that's too powerful for a starting character. If he doesn't get it, tell him that a first level fighter can't start with the equivalent of Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Focus, and Greater Weapon Specialization...

 

In ALL weapons.

[Vulcan]

Re: Limiting Combat Levels

 

Sorry for the D&D speak, guys.

[Eosin]

Re: Limiting Combat Levels

 

Ok, Simple Tough Guy. That's pretty easy.

 

Using your post as a base....

 

20 CON +4

15 BODY +4

8 PD +4

8 ED +4

4 SPD +10

 

+6 AK: Region 15-

+4 KS: Heraldry 13-

 

+10 Defensive Maneuver I-IV

+15 Combat Sense

 

+12 STR (12 Points), Only when Berserk (-X)

+12 Combat Luck, only when Berserk (-x)

 

Sell him on buying the bonus stuff when Berserk, sorta like a Barbarian gets some bonzo stuff in d20. Explain the need for a few Knowledge Skills (Local Region and Heraldry being exceedingly common). Defensive Maneuver sounds right up his alley since it prevents a gaggle of orcs teaming up on you. That should drop him down 20-30 points. Break up one or two of the Overall skill levels into HTH levels (assuming he is a HTH guy). That will still leave him with 4-5 skill levels but it'll wash with the martial arts type guys.

 

Just think of HTH skill levels as his form of martial arts, very fluid but not versatile.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Limiting Combat Levels

 

I'd start with some other things he could spend points on without complicating his options:

 

- physical skills like Riding, Climbing, Stealth

- a bit more PD and ED,and maybe Combat Luck (he's poor - he won't have great armor and weapons)

- a bit more Running, perhaps, maybe swimming, leaping as well

- maybe some Luck - that at least provides a rationale for his remaining levels

- perhaps some enhanced perception

- What do the other characters have that he lacks, and might feel that lack?

 

then move on to some more esoteric talents that would work automatically in combat (Cleave equivalent, for example)

 

But, at the end of the day, "his rolls will succeed" is all the levels mean. Is that so big a deal? So he can hit in combat. How much damage does he do? The martial arts package would probably have made him as or more effective in combat than 6 overall levels will.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Limiting Combat Levels

 

And add some Skills! Suggest the following:

Breakfall

Riding

Area Knowledge

Defensive Maneuver

Stealth

Shadowing

some pertinent Knowledge Skills to the campaign world.

 

I say run these skills by him, and some of the Talents from the FH book.

 

If he gets into the backgrounds you create, have him spend some points on Background skills, to place his character firmly in the setting. If he has Area Knowledges and Knowledge Skills and such, his character will have heard rumors about the tunnel called the Smuggler's Road leading from the river under the town and up to a cave complex in the hills...you can give him this info as soon as it's appropriate without him having to kick around and get some guy in a tavern to tell him all about it. That's got to be a draw for someone who's there for the stories....

[Robot_Nixon]

Re: Limiting Combat Levels

 

I'm not trying to change the player or force him to 'grow'. He's happy the way he plays and I don't think I have the right to tell him his gaming happiness is wrong.

 

All I want to do is apply a house rule that limits the amount of CV/Levels a player can have at the beginning of the game and provide a structured rate at which CV/Levels can be gained. If he satisfies that limitation and is still two dimensional and shallow, so be it. I am sure he will enjoy it.

 

As a specific value in a guide formula cannot be suggested, I will go ahead with what I was going to do and say 3 levels from any source at start and they can gain 2 more each 50 points they achieve. I don't know how this will go as far as character growth rewards go, but I think an easy and concrete rule at the beginning will be better then telling him he doesn't play right and since he is a remedial role player I have to build his character for him.

 

Thanks for the help and suggestions everyone. I am sure I will be back with other issues after the game gets started.

 

 

EDIT: I was writing my reply when you guys offered the skill suggestions. Thanks I think that is what I will turn him towards...

 

Drop 5 of the overalls and replace with 2 HTH 5 pointers. (3 total)

He was a soldier for a short time but deserted: Familiarity with CuK Hallowdane Military Life/Hallowdane Military insignia 1pt.

He spent a long time in Fallengate Prison: CuK Prison Life 2pts. / AK Fallengate Prison 2pts.

He is an armorsmith so I will sell him on weaponsmith as well: Weaponsmith +1 5pts.

It would do well to know how to smelt his own metals as a smith (A stretch but what the hell) Smelting KS Metallurgy 4 pts.

 

And a few others that go with his character concept;

Tactics +1 5 pts.

Gambling +1 (He'll like that one) 5 pts.

Tracking (another stretch) 3pts.

And if he goes for the tracking skill, I will explain he couldn't have learned tracking without becoming very familiar with his home region: AK: Hallowdane environs +3 4pts. (+1 AK Hallowdane environ everyman familiarity skill for a total of 5 pts.)

 

This should make him feel more rounded without changing the character too much.

[Eosin]

Re: Limiting Combat Levels

 

I'm not trying to change the player or force him to 'grow'. He's happy the way he plays and I don't think I have the right to tell him his gaming happiness is wrong.

 

I think you may be taking some of the suggestions in an unintended spirit. I don't see many of the suggestions saying your player needs to grow. What I see is some very experienced players and GMs offering you suggestions to offer instead of making an arbitrary ruling.

 

Your player is easy to grok... Most groups have or have had someone similar. His character isn't all that bad and shows a fair grasp of the rules. It isn't by any means complete but that was sorta presented right up front. Suggesting that he has a partially built character and that X, Y, & Z are critical to his concept IS limiting his Overall levels -- for each fraction of 10 points he spends on rounding his character is another overall level gone.

 

I'd rather have someone with 8 HTH levels than 3 Overall levels. Good god! Those overalls are some mighty handy things. Getting tortured... Overall to EGO, Can't see something... Overall to Perception, Need some weapons in the Vatican? Overalls to Streetwise and you can find 'em. Ouch, it makes my brain hurt.

 

The character is a barbarian without any of the cool wing dings that go with being a barbarian. Show him the cool wingdings and let him spend the points buying them instead of saying, "Don't spend them here." Then bump his CV back up by converting some of those Overalls into HTH levels.

 

Take a look back through the suggested abilities and see that they are very similar (nearly everything suggested shows up more than once). We didn't plan a convention before offering suggestions -- these are things that are legitimately missing from this type of character. He doesn't have to buy them all. He doesn't need them all but you can suck 30-40 points right off his character while making the character group friendly, GM friendly, and a rockin mother in combat. The beauty is that with this you never have to say, "You can't do that. I know I said spend points to build your character but I really meant...."

 

Then again, do whatever you want. It is your game. Ask and folks around here will offer advice. You don't have to take it. Nobody is going to point fingers and say that you are doing it wrong. Nobody is going to laugh at your player's character (it ain't a bad build and there certainly are worse done by veterans trying to bilk the system with broken builds). We will tell you what we would do in our own games.

 

So, you have two choices.

 

1. No, you can't do that...

2. Conan here really could use some.....

 

Oh yeah, to reiterate - 3 Overall levels are bad news, much worse than 6 HTH levels. Even All Combat Levels are significantly better.

 

Here is hoping you have a rockingly fun game!

 

 

EDITED: Ah, I see we both got bit by everyone posting here tonight. Soldier on!

[Robot_Nixon]

Re: Limiting Combat Levels

 

The statement wasn't meant to be confrontational. Just that I wasn't willing to go in that direction. If he comes to me asking for things like that, fine.

 

I did like your idea for the strength and combat luck tied to the berserk status but as much as he looks like a barbarian he envisioned the berserk as a curse and not an asset. He imagines a fallen soldier (hence no thief/stelath skills despite the time in prison) than a barbarian or criminal. His embrace of the disadvantages was actually more than anyone else in the group which I give him all due credit for. Not everyone can see the fun in those right off.

 

And I agree with the overall levels which is why I will try to drop him to one and two HTH 5 pointers. (3 levels from all sources).

 

Thanks again, (sincerely) and I wasn't intending to offend.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Limiting Combat Levels

 

When I look at the character you posted, I don't see someone who "needs to grow" - I see someone trying to build a very solid and straight forward fighter.

 

And I know the rules pretty decently I'd like to think.

 

He can easily add a number of skills that I think he'll want, and would benefit the character idea.

 

Breakfall is what I consider an Essential Combat Skill. He should have it hands down.

 

Stealth, Shadowing - these are both compliments to Streetwise to some extent, mixed with a warrior knowing what sneaking up on a camp is a good idea.

 

Riding - a good overall skill to put on a Fantasy Character 90% of the time.

 

Defensive Maneuver - these don't actually require any work on his part, it's a passive skill. At the highest level (10pts, the cost of an Overall) he can't be surrounded in combat, no one sneaks up on him, and almost nothing gets him by surprise.

 

In my experience, people dump that many levels into Overall for one of two reasons:

They have a ton of skills and are really looking to work the system over.

They really aren't sure of what's needed in the campaign, and have generally run out of ideas so throw points here.

 

Personally, and this is me, I don't allow Overall Skill Levels at the start of a Campaign. I consider those Skill Levels that a character grows into once they're approaching Epic Fantasy Level; around where the Heroic Characters are approaching 200-250 Points or more. But that's my experience in running an enjoyable campaign for everyone.

[Maur]

Re: Limiting Combat Levels

 

I wouldn't allow overalls to be used when asking for a reactionary skill check unless the person has done something explicitly to place them there (e.g. character is on watch and says he's staying alert). If they're riding or hiking through the woods, then they are doing too many things (survival, navigation, etc...) to justify those overalls being placed in any specific skill.

[Manic Typist]

Re: Limiting Combat Levels

 

As a specific value in a guide formula cannot be suggested,

 

Just because I'm nitpicky- TWO formulas were suggested, in addition to a plethora of additional advice. I'm glad to see some of it was potentially useful.

 

Maur- well, then what happens to those Overalls while they're doing all that, hm? Can they use them at all? To me, that sounds like a perfect time to be allowed to assign your Overall levels.

[CourtFool]

Re: Limiting Combat Levels

 

They have a ton of skills and are really looking to work the system over.

 

You and I may have disagreed on this before. I happen to be a big fan of Overall Skill Levels. I like to play jack-of-all trades characters and Overall Skill Levels make that a viable option. I just do not understand why people are so against them. 10 points is pretty cost restrictive in and of itself.

 

Now, from a purely min/max point of view, 6 skills and 6 Overall Skill Levels is just a waste. To me, you really need more skills to justify the points.

[JmOz]

Re: Limiting Combat Levels

 

You and I may have disagreed on this before. I happen to be a big fan of Overall Skill Levels. I like to play jack-of-all trades characters and Overall Skill Levels make that a viable option. I just do not understand why people are so against them. 10 points is pretty cost restrictive in and of itself.

 

Now, from a purely min/max point of view, 6 skills and 6 Overall Skill Levels is just a waste. To me, you really need more skills to justify the points.

 

Personaly, My problem with 10 point skill levels is the effect on things I do not consider appropriate, namely characteristic and PER rolls, amazing how I disallow those two things and I am happy with 10 point skill levels in general. Basicaly I let them apply to skills (that the character has spent atleast 3 points on) and CSL's, works good...