Cotu!

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Cotu!

 

That is a very nice point. The character sheet should be a carefully cradted thing: it evokes the game' date=' it should make playing it easier and more enjoyable. As you may have guessed it is not something I necessarily spend a lot of time on myself, but I can certainly see the value of doing so.[/quote']

 

But you did it textually - All the 'How do you DO that?' type titles are just as important in evoking genre. Font is important as well - there is something to be said for clarity but even clarity can be compromised to make something look as though it belongs in the genre the game is seeking to simulate.

 

 

Doc

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Cotu!

 

CotU, meet Not so crunchy Hero.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Cotu!

 

That's a pretty nice little distillation, Sean. I'd rep you for the good work, but I must have done it for something else lately...

[rjcurrie]

Re: Cotu!

 

If people like it and it works for them, great.

 

Personally, I made it to 1a before deciding that is not something that I want to play due to what seem like unnecessary character creation restrictions.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Cotu!

 

If people like it and it works for them, great.

 

Personally, I made it to 1a before deciding that is not something that I want to play due to what seem like unnecessary character creation restrictions.

 

 

I doubt many regular Hero players would play it, the idea was to show what Hero can do, as a sort of introduction for the unititiated. It is quick and easy to get into and uses many Hero core rules.

 

The main reason for doing it though was to demonstrate how Hero can be used as a toolkit not just for character realisation but in terms of its own rules. This is obviously a simplification, but hopefully still recognisably Hero. You could equally build a more complex game, more of a simulation, but that would have taken much longer to demonstrate so I went with easy. I'm not suggesting for a moment hat I think this is a direction that Core Hero should go, but I am saying it is one of the things it can do, and this aspect of the game (game rule tailoring) might be a good one to develop in future editions.

[rjcurrie]

Re: Cotu!

 

 

I doubt many regular Hero players would play it, the idea was to show what Hero can do, as a sort of introduction for the unititiated. It is quick and easy to get into and uses many Hero core rules.

 

The main reason for doing it though was to demonstrate how Hero can be used as a toolkit not just for character realisation but in terms of its own rules. This is obviously a simplification, but hopefully still recognisably Hero. You could equally build a more complex game, more of a simulation, but that would have taken much longer to demonstrate so I went with easy. I'm not suggesting for a moment hat I think this is a direction that Core Hero should go, but I am saying it is one of the things it can do, and this aspect of the game (game rule tailoring) might be a good one to develop in future editions.

 

I suppose. Personally, I think that you're not actually introducing people to Hero at all but rather to a bastardization of Hero that removes one of its major strengths (that is, characteristic customization) and by making some of the changes that you have, you're just going to end up confusing people even more when they move onto a "real" Hero game.

 

And to be honest, I question many of the so-called simplications and whether they are really necessary. In particular, has anyone ever had a player seriously confused by the fact that you divide by 3 to calculate OCV/DCV/ECV but divide by 5 to calculate Skill rolls? And is "roll-under" really all that difficult to handle than "roll-over"? Are these serious problems that need to be changed or are they just minor differences that players need to get to used to?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Cotu!

 

Well, like I say, the mechanics are easy, and part of the problem I've had introducing Hero to players has been the perception that it is a complicated game.

 

What is complicated, what takes the hours of time investment is getting your head round character creation. Shockingly not everyone wants that kind of freedom of expression, at least to start off with.

 

Again, though, this is not the point of the exercise, it was to demonstrate how Hero can be customised not just in character creation but in other areas. In doing it it has also clarified my thoughts on a number of other areas for future development. For instance I thought previously that, if we were to have a single core mechanic for all task resolution, in and out of combat, it should be based on the combat model of CHAR/3 because that makes things more crunchy. In fact it is much smoother and more appropriate to base it on CHAR/5.

[rjcurrie]

Re: Cotu!

 

But if you give them the impression that you had to "streamline" the system for them to learn it, aren't you just reinforcing the impression that the system is complicated?

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Cotu!

 

But if you give them the impression that you had to "streamline" the system for them to learn it' date=' aren't you just reinforcing the impression that the system is complicated?[/quote']

 

I'd bet there were any number of people who said the same thing about Windows - why would people possibly want a cut down version of the command line - which allowed you to know exactly what was going on and precisely manage the system.

 

 

One of HERO's big problems is getting people to sit down and play at all. The character sheet looks complicated, its got lots of numbers and strange word formulae (with more numbers and FRACTIONS!).

 

This would be a way of getting people to sit down and play the game. The hope would be that this taster (and may I repeat, Sean wrote this in three days!) that would lead them to want to break free of the constraints of Sean's game environment and do things for themselves.

 

 

Doc

[rjcurrie]

Re: Cotu!

 

I'd bet there were any number of people who said the same thing about Windows - why would people possibly want a cut down version of the command line - which allowed you to know exactly what was going on and precisely manage the system.

 

 

One of HERO's big problems is getting people to sit down and play at all. The character sheet looks complicated, its got lots of numbers and strange word formulae (with more numbers and FRACTIONS!).

 

This would be a way of getting people to sit down and play the game. The hope would be that this taster (and may I repeat, Sean wrote this in three days!) that would lead them to want to break free of the constraints of Sean's game environment and do things for themselves.

 

 

Doc

 

That's fine, I still question whether misrepresenting the Hero System in order to sell it is the right thing to do. But then again, perhaps you guys make a healthy living as used car salesmen.

 

Of course, a lot of this depends on whether or not Sean has any kind of reputation amongst the players he would expect to play in this. If he has a rep as someone who makes all kinds of unnecessary changes to systems when he runs them, then the impact will be probably blunted. However, I think it is safe to say that he is not one of those GMs who has players ready to play in his games regardless of what system is being used -- or he'd have no problems. Which means that there are likely other faults with his GMing which could cause people to be reluctant about playing in a Hero campaign he runs.

 

This may go for other GMs as well. It's one thing to learn a new system under a great GM where all you have to deal with is the new system because you know the GM is likely tol give you a good game regardless of system. However, if you already have issues with whether or not the GM will give you a good game, then learning a new system under that GM means that you're dealing with two burdens: the new system and worrying about whether the game will be good.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Cotu!

 

I play in a group where we kind of trust each other and are willing to give stuff a go. I am the HERO advocate in the group and there are one or two others who think they would like (or should like) HERO.

 

They freely admit that they have enjoyed playing the games I have run (they have criticised other games so I believe this to be true comment). They also freely admit that it just looks so complicated and they get distracted to the point where some of the creative players begin playing the numbers on the sheet rather than the powers they represent.

 

The system can inadvertantly get in the way of the game. With a nice front end (whether or not it limits choices like Sean's example) you can make a huge difference. And for beginners - an introductory system (based on HERO) can be very instructive as to HERO's capabilities not only to play games but to build them from the ground up.

 

Personally, I can imagine Sean introducing COTU as a game he'd designed using the HERO System - not a HERO game to play but one built using the system.

 

He'd indicate that the gameplay is there based on what he's allowed - btu that if they liked it and were interested there were lots of other things that could be done.

 

No need to misrepresent - tell the whole truth and it still works. In fact it might even work better because you have just highlighted an aspect of HERO that is not represented by many other systems available out there.

 

 

Doc

[Sean Waters]

Re: Cotu!

 

For the record I play Hero straight, with very few modifications or house rules (I have a house rule for damage when grabbed and I impose penalties on coordination rolls based on the number of people coordinating) because the people I usually play with all know the system well enough that it seems silly to change the way it works and have to have them all learn (and approve) my changes. I even use canon 5th ed regeneration, although it is almost physically painful to do so.

 

Even when I'm not playing with my usual crowd I tend to stick to what is written because I do know the system well enough to run it for people who know nothing about it at all. I've been playing it since first edition. I make all kinds of freakish suggestions on these boards and, if they are adopted, then I'll play that way.

 

I think I'm a decent enough GM but I've been blessed with some excellent friends who like to play (and run) Hero.

 

Cotu! was an intellectual excercise, just to see if the 'front end' could be simplified and yet still retain a lot of Hero features, rather like Doc's Windows example. I'm unlikely ever to run it for the reasons given above, but anyone who finds any merit in it is welcome to use it. To be honest I think we get hung up a little on having complete creative control. You can have much less potential variety (and most of it is and always will be unrealised potential) and still never cross the same spot twice. Cotu! would have far too little variation in teh current form to ever be worth playing int eh long term but that was never the point.

 

I think telling anyone that Cotu! is Hero, or even 'the essence of Hero' would be untrue and unnecessary. That's the wrong metaphor anyway, come to think on it. At best it is a trailer, a poster or a viral for Hero. Even at worst it was interesting to do, and it is built with Hero - even if the rules are slightly modified (everything based on CHAR/5) all the powers etc are built and balanced using core Hero. You could re-constitute these characters and drop them into a Champions game (a low powered one) and they would run just fine.

[zornwil]

Re: Cotu!

 

Coming back to this, I hope/wish HERO would reconsider its stance re games packaged as "Built using HERO" and, albeit requiring some proving with playtesting, this game is really a great approach to that. To me, this is what shouldi be the artistic and systemic future of HERO, building games using it as a toolkit, building the HERO system to be a toolkit useful for that.