Inaccessible Focus vs. Common Sense

[Wintermute]

Ok, every once in a while I have trouble conforming my screwed up thoughts which I consider "common sense" to the cold logic of the game rules. Ultimately, all these decisions are left up to the GM. But i'm interested in a general discussion given the following scenario:

 

Villan A has a necklace, which is considered an Inaccessible Focus as part of her powers. Now, FREd says that this type of focus cannot be hit with a Grab or taken away while A is in combat.

 

This is where I get confused. I can understand how a necklace (or a ring, for that matter) could be considered inacessible, because in the difficulty in its being removed. However, I can also see, that if a Focus is Obvious, and is something like a necklace, you could concievably remove it during a combat situation. Whether by a very good HTH Grab Roll (esp. if you're using the Hit Location Table), or with something like TK with Fine Manip, it would seem reasonable to me that something that may be defined as an OIF COULD be removed during a combat situation, and not require a full out-of-combat turn.

 

And how would you define an out-of-combat turn, anyway? I've not played many games, but in all of the ones I have played in, turns stopped counting once you were out of combat. Are the rules saying that the character may remove themselves from combat for one turn for the purpose of removing an OIF?

 

Thoughts on any or all of the above is appreciated.

[Talon]

Out of combat Turn: I've always interpreted this as 1 Turn at more or less 0 DCV. You /could/ do that during a combat, of course, but most of the time you wouldn't want to.

 

While I might allow an OIF to be removed in less than a turn under exceptional circumstances, it would take more than just TK with fine manipulation or a good Grab roll -- otherwise the Limitation becomes devalued.

[Pattern Ghost]

If it can be taken in combat, it should be an OAF. If the player defines and OIF as something that seems like it should be grabbable, then you should decide why it isn't grabbable in combat. In the case of the necklace, maybe the character is skilled in moving and twisting it out of the way, or it's partly under the costume (say the chain), or the power that fuels it (magic, tech, whatever) somehow protects it from being grabbed. Out of combat, I'd say it's OK to allow the focus to be removed in less than a turn, based on SFX. If it's pinned to the back of the character's collar, it might take a half turn, if it's just hanging around the neck, and the character's movement make it an OIF or if it was protected by the character's force field, say (and they've been knocked out), then less than a half turn, and if it's magically stuck on the character or something, then the full turn rule should apply.

 

To me, the main point of accessability is whether the focus can be taken away in combat. If it can't be taken away in combat, it's inaccessable. If it's inaccessable, it can't be taken away in combat.

[Blue Jogger]

It would also depend on the focus. Some loose necklaces (or bracelets) would naturally be accessable in combat via a Grab. YOINK. I've seen these in comic books, they dangle (one size fits all) and have huge gems that scream "OBVIOUS ACCESSABLE FOCUS!"

 

Inaccessable necklaces and bracklets would be tight fitting and unable to get off in less than a turn. Occasionally, I have to take the leash off my dog when he can't stand still. And I can easily believe I'm taking a full turn at 0 DCV. Even these, an unusual power such as Telekinesis with Fine Manipulation could make a STR vs STR check to rip it off in less than a turn. Or maybe Slight of Hand roll if it's invisible. But if this happens too often, the player may want to make it accessable, since the villians seem to get access to it easily enough.

 

Some are even harder to remove, and those should have the Only in Hero ID if that.

[Spence]

For me I try to make the focus fit its type. For instance, in this case the focus is a necklace. I wouldn't allow it to be considered inaccessable unless its effect fits. A necklace that is obvious and flops around has to be Obvious Accessable, if it is obvious, but say fuses to the heroes neck or sinks into him/her when active, then it can be Inaccessable. But there has to be a reason it is considured Inaccessable other than wanting the Focus bonus without the drawbacks.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Spence

For me I try to make the focus fit its type. For instance, in this case the focus is a necklace. I wouldn't allow it to be considered inaccessable unless its effect fits. A necklace that is obvious and flops around has to be Obvious Accessable, if it is obvious, but say fuses to the heroes neck or sinks into him/her when active, then it can be Inaccessable. But there has to be a reason it is considured Inaccessable other than wanting the Focus bonus without the drawbacks.

 

To me, a necklace sounds Accesiible.

 

Your comment about wanting the bonus without the drawbacks seems misplaced

 

Seems to me this character is taking the drawbacks without the bonus. If it's easily grabbed, it SHOULD be accessible, which is a larger limitation. Perhaps the player might redefine the focus to be IAF - it can be grabbed but, since its only value seems to be ornamental, no one bothers.

[tesuji]

One thing to remember, this is a game where accessibility is NOT just a physical property. Sometimes things are inaccessible because "it just never seems to happen."

 

If your powered armor doesn't get broken or taken and you never seem to be without it... its not a focus at all.

 

its perfectly legit within the system to define an item as lacking some or even all of the focus possibilities **EVEN IF IN A PHYSICAL SENSE THEY WOULD APPLY** for the dramatic concept of "it never happens."

 

So, just because you would like for the villain to have bought his necklace "grabbable" for you... its "his choice" and just like you sometimes benefit from the "dramatic licenses" they can too.

 

of course, the Gm can easily decide for his game that he will not approve the dramatic license and make all swords be foci and make all power armor be foci and so forth... and then Dr Destroyer gets a focus break on his armor too.

[Blue Jogger]

Originally posted by tesuji

One thing to remember, this is a game where accessibility is NOT just a physical property. Sometimes things are inaccessible because "it just never seems to happen."

 

If your powered armor doesn't get broken or taken and you never seem to be without it... its not a focus at all.

 

its perfectly legit within the system to define an item as lacking some or even all of the focus possibilities **EVEN IF IN A PHYSICAL SENSE THEY WOULD APPLY** for the dramatic concept of "it never happens."

 

I'll agree with that. I had a Green Lantern character and he didn't have any focus limitations on his Power Ring, purely to make losing of it a "it never happens" special effect. You'd think by now, someone would just steal the darn thing. "In the Brightest Days, in the Darkest Nights. Let no... HEY! Where's my ring?"

 

Of course, it was strange to play a Green Lantern after watching Lord of the Rings... "To bear a Ring of Power, is to be alone."

[Tech]

IIF, OIF, IAF or OAF depends a lot of the special effects.

 

One character got his powers through a neckchain of sorts, very easy to take away. Only thing is, he hid it under his costume and became IAF. A gun can be any of these, depending on where the gun is, is it easy to take away, is it ever seen or does it screen for it to be taken away?

 

More thoughts. A small gun hidden in the palm of his hand could easily be IAF. A mystic necklace that defies being taken away can be OIF. A bow that shoots arrows that's obvious and easily taken away, yet can be teleported instantly back to the wielder's hand is OIF. Special effects really does help define the limitation and should be given a lot of thought other than "I want it to be OIF."

[Farkling]

toe-may-toe toe-ma-toe

 

IAF, OIF, Restrainable, Object of Oppurtunity (I love that interpretation, always have)....all the same value. The hair splitting is over the description of the object. Wings USED to be OIF, now they are restrainable. An improvement by my light. Focus is THE longest limitation section in FREd. It's complicated. And a gold mine for character building.

 

Here's my rules of thumb...YMMV::

 

1) OAF is visible and obvious (a gun!!). It can be taken from the character with a Grab manuever in combat, or shot/knocked out of his hands. It is ALSO outside of any defenses it does not provide itself. (House Rule:: Force Fields with the +10 Adder for "carried objects" will shield it from damage, but roll STR at straight BODY to BODY to maintiain your grip like normal).

 

2) IAF cannot be spotted without an appropriate PER roll or sense. Once spotted, it is an OAF to the spotter. The lock will not be "magically lost" Some special effects may allow for that AFTER combat...

 

3) OIF is visible and obvious (powered armor). It cannot be taken by an opponent. It is also is INSIDE the character's defenses. The character can use his or the focus' defenses to protect it from damage, whichever is higher. The focus may STILL be targeted in combat...it is obvious after all. They are pretty hard to harm though, and cannot be knocked away or removed. (Houe Rule:: Inaccesible Foci which are not part of defenses are generally MORE difficult to target than Accessibles. On the fly we have used size modifers in addition to the -2 for targetting a focus, and it worked pretty well).

 

4) IIF can't be seen until spotted, then it acts as an OIF to the spotter.