High STR + HKAs, thoughts

[Checkmate]

Re: High STR + HKAs, thoughts

 

Hmm... I dont think I'm likely to haymaker a 1 charge attack that locks out things I need. The 'sidestep' potential is just too great.

Look at the limitations again. It's only a 1 charge attack IF HE HITS. If he misses, no penalties at all. Oh yeah he's gonna haymaker all the time.

[jkwleisemann]

Re: High STR + HKAs, thoughts

 

As an aside, remember that if his Haymaker *hits*, he's packing a -5 DCV along with his minimal defenses.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: High STR + HKAs, thoughts

 

My numbers are based on the base 70 STR which gives a base 14" leap.

Assuming that the character spends 1 additional point on leaping OR pushes his leap by 1" he gets +5 damage classes for the maneuver.

 

So the comparison boils down to:

 

14d6 normal damage strike

16 with 10 point push

19 with move through

21 with both

 

vs.

 

3d6 base HKA

6d6k with STR

7d6+1k with 10 point push of the HKA (which allows 55 STR to be added)

7 1/2d6k with move through

9d6k (27 damage classes) with both

 

Can movement damage enhance the KA beyond 2x its base? My recollection is that it cannot, so that caps him at 7d6+1 (22 DC) with the Push. Which means another 11 END spent.

 

Also look at the OP. Nowhere in the description is there a mention of 1 charge or any charge. He's playing a lotto with the Side Effect. But just as he can get lucky with damage rolls, so he can get lucky and roll low for SE, resulting in at least three shots, maybe more.

 

Also remember the SE only goes off if he hits. So he can push every shot till he hits, then he takes to SE. I would totally do this, and I am far from a munchkin/power-gamer. So 21 DC regular or 27 killing.

 

The Side Effect is the biggest issue to me. The Side Effect should not apply only if he hits, and it should do BOD damage, not BOD that miraculously comes back in a few minutes.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: High STR + HKAs, thoughts

 

Can movement damage enhance the KA beyond 2x its base? My recollection is that it cannot, so that caps him at 7d6+1 (22 DC) with the Push. Which means another 11 END spent.

 

 

 

The Side Effect is the biggest issue to me. The Side Effect should not apply only if he hits, and it should do BOD damage, not BOD that miraculously comes back in a few minutes.

 

 

good catch.

 

from 5er page 407

 

 

Movement Adding To Killing Damage For Killing Damage, a character can add 1 DC for every 1d6 of bonus Normal Damage dice. However, he still cannot more than double the damage done by the weapon or attack (he cannot add more DCs than the attack normally has). For example, if a character with a sword (HKA 1d6+1) did a Move By at 15”, he would add +3 DCs damage from velocity, thus increasing the sword’s damage to 2d6+1. At most, between velocity and other methods, he can increase the sword’s damage to 2½d6 (twice the weapon’s base DCs).

 

So unlike a similar un-advantaged HA a 3d6 HKA cannot be increased beyond 6d6.

[jkwleisemann]

Re: High STR + HKAs, thoughts

 

That's what I'd thought - so, does this change anybody's POV? Even if pushed, he's capped out at significantly lower than 9d6 (and that's if the GM lets his Pushed attack add 4 DC instead of just 2 - paying 10 END to crank yourself up to 6.5d6 instead of 6 really isn't worth it.)

[Hyper-Man]

Re: High STR + HKAs, thoughts

 

Well, if the character pushes the HKA by 10 points it actually increases the base damage from 9 DC to 11 DC and therefore allows 55 STR to be added to it.

 

Maneuvers just don't affect damage for this attack.

[Marcus]

Re: High STR + HKAs, thoughts

 

11DCs of killing.. 22DCs w/Str.

 

Horrifying, but not that far off (or possibly LESS, still dont know his movement) of his move through.

[Checkmate]

Re: High STR + HKAs, thoughts

 

I'm reminded of what Steve Peterson and Bruce Harlick said about the most abusive 60 AP power: 4d6 HKA. I feel that a Killing Attack that has the same AP as a regular attack is more powerful.

[Marcus]

Re: High STR + HKAs, thoughts

 

It seems to me that their variability makes KAs often disproportionately effective. It also often makes the disproportionately INeffective.

 

At 12 DCs, in a 12 DC game, Id probably prefer the KA, in terms of 'putting down opponents'. For all the old reasons.

 

That said, for a Mega-Blaster (in a 12 dice game), Id rather have a 21 Dice Normal than a 7 Dice Killing... 21 dice of normal will do really, really close to 73 stun most of the time (stunning bricks reliably). The 7 dice killing does 24.5 Bod, and 24.5, 24.5, 45, 69.5, 98, 122.5.

 

Stunning the brick 1 time in 2 (although, granted, KOing him 1 time in 6, unlike the EB).

 

I guess it comes down to what flavour you prefer to deal your damage in.. reliably or variably? I also cannot but think that the overall reduction of defense in 5th ed helps the EB out, compared to the KA.

[Fireg0lem]

Re: High STR + HKAs, thoughts

 

I maintain that the big issue with KAs is the 1d6-1 being used. KAs are much, much more balanced if you instead go with the Hit Location optional rule, or just fix x3 Stun Multiplier. I really think Hit Location should be the standard rule, and 1d6-1 should be an optional rule.

[Tech]

Re: High STR + HKAs, thoughts

 

As another poster mentioned, we do not have the character sheet. We're going on theoreticals here as to why the brick has the HKA. I'd really need to see the sheet to give a definite answer, otherwise all of us can only give our answers base on what limited view we have. I'd be particularly interested in the Psychological Disadvantages as well as what kind of hero he is: is he a Boy Scout type hero or a killer? Does he have a Code vs Killing, No Code vs Killing or Reluctance to Kill? etc etc.

[BNakagawa]

Re: High STR + HKAs, thoughts

 

even knowing the character sheet isn't nearly as useful as knowing the player.

 

There are things I would never allow into my game.

 

There are things I would only allow into my game when played by certain people.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: High STR + HKAs, thoughts

 

I maintain that the big issue with KAs is the 1d6-1 being used. KAs are much' date=' much more balanced if you instead go with the Hit Location optional rule, or just fix x3 Stun Multiplier. I really think Hit Location should be the standard rule, and 1d6-1 should be an optional rule.[/quote']

 

Stun lotto aside, the 26 average Body* generated by this attack that is only stopped by resistant defenses is my primary concern.

The knockback alone generates an average 15d6n secondary attack.

 

*7d6+1K with 10 active point push of base HKA

[Marcus]

Re: High STR + HKAs, thoughts

 

Id be perfectly happy with a x3 Stun rule. I've always preferred KA over EB mechanically, due to simply involving less total dice.

 

Now, x3 stun DOES actually increase the average stun handout pretty substantially (x2.66 being the 'average' result on the D6-1 min 1), but it eliminates so much of that "Roll 1 die to discover if foe is unconcious or unaffected" problem with KAs.

[Fireg0lem]

Re: High STR + HKAs, thoughts

 

 

Now, x3 stun DOES actually increase the average stun handout pretty substantially (x2.66 being the 'average' result on the D6-1 min 1), but it eliminates so much of that "Roll 1 die to discover if foe is unconcious or unaffected" problem with KAs.

 

I agree, but it keeps the power about the same. Because of the way HERO defenses work, one x1 multiplier hit and one x5 multiplier hit is much better than two x3 multiplier hits; you're likely to Stun the target with the x5, and if they have decent defense (more than the BODY damage you deal) you're putting through more total Stun as well.

 

I still recommend Hit Locations, but I'd definitely recommend x3 multiplier over 1d6-1.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: High STR + HKAs, thoughts

 

I agree, but it keeps the power about the same. Because of the way HERO defenses work, one x1 multiplier hit and one x5 multiplier hit is much better than two x3 multiplier hits; you're likely to Stun the target with the x5, and if they have decent defense (more than the BODY damage you deal) you're putting through more total Stun as well.

 

I still recommend Hit Locations, but I'd definitely recommend x3 multiplier over 1d6-1.

 

So now the KA does the same average stun as the normal attack, has enhanced volatility (because 4d6 x 3 will vary more widely than 12d6) although curtailed a bit, averages greater BOD against lesser defenses and does a bit less knockback. Does the KA need to be more expensive?

 

I prefer the Hit Locations approach, provided it is also applied to normal attacks. The fact that a Head Hit with a normal attack also enhances damage done mitigates the higher stun done by the KA. However, we then get into called shots in systems where the points needed for 8 PSL's to offset hit location penalties are a pretty small investment, and where CV's can vary quite dramatically.

 

I suppose we could use the hit location table as a "strike severity" table without tying directly to locations, but once you say "the head shot is the sweet spot", people reasonably want to be able to target the head.

[Weldun]

Re: High STR + HKAs, thoughts

 

*snip* However' date=' we then get into called shots in systems where the points needed for 8 PSL's to offset hit location penalties are a pretty small investment, and where CV's can vary quite dramatically.*paste*[/quote']Which is why I don't allow more than 3 targeting penalty levels. This allows you to reliably hit the chest, and mitigates other locations. Like anything in Hero, it really comes down to the GM asking themself, "What am I willing to let my players do?"