Various Powers at Edge of System

[sindyr]

OK, first of all, I'm *that guy* - you'know, the one that caused the furor over on the Absolute Ability thread. Through all the controversy and conflict, a lot of really interesting ideas have come out of it - but before I go further with the third idea that completely replaces the other two, I need to do so "research", with the help of you kind people who are well versed in this system and how to employ it.

 

In short, before I go forward, I need to know which, if any, of the following abilities can accurately be represented in the Hero System, and how one would mechanically do that. Ultimately, for each of the following, I just need to know if the full functionality can be done exactly as presented, and if so, how.

 

I am grateful for any assistance on these matters.

 

 

• A power that resurrects you after you have died, which has NO way of being prevented, no "True Death"
  
• Mental Speech to any individual regardless of range or prior contact. You just think of the person you want to communciate mentally and boom, you are. (Assume a willing participant)
  
• Your eyes glow, providing enough illumination for you and others to see in the dark by. This effect continues even after your character has died.
  
• You want to make it rain over the whole city.
  
• You want to make it rain everywhere on earth.
  
• You can become completely invisible to all senses, including any equipment or clothes you are wearing, including weapons, including the use of powers. You and all your stuff are also desolid. You can also attack other people with your weapons normally, although your weapon cannot be seen (nor can the blood on it.) They cannot grab your weapon, as it is desolid, although it still does damage. Any bullets, paint, smoke etc flow completely through you.
  
• You can project Images to every sense group.
  
• You can project Images to every sense group, and anyone witnessing the Images have no chance at all to recognize the Image is a Fake.
  
• You have a power, such as an Energy Blast, that cannot be Drained, Dispelled, or otherwise dimished or suppressed.
  
• You cannot take damage or other negative effects (like pain or distractions) from the environment, regardless of where you are, nor do you have any needs for sustenance, food, air, sleep, and the like.
  
• Nothing you do costs Endurance.
  
• You can move a star with the power of your telekinetic mind.
  
• You can teleport precisely anywhere - even exactly 3,832 miles, 187 feet, and 4.7763 inches away.
  
• You can teleport some else against their will precisely anywhere - even exactly 3,832 miles, 187 feet, and 4.7763 inches away.
  
• You wish to take an Energy Blast with not just No Normal Defense, but with No Defense - in others words, without needing to define and powers or circumstances as the defense.
  
• The ability for a character's mind to jump back in time up to 2 minutes. The world is put back up to two minutes, but the character still knows what happened. The character is the *only* one who know what happened in the future timeline that now may not occur.
  
• What if it was up to two days? Longer?
  
• Resurrection of friends or "non bad guys" who have died in an area in the past 30 minutes.
  
• Performing two full actions simultaneously in a single phase. Such as teleporting into to an area and then using an Energy Blast.
  
• Teleporting a visible item or visible piece or component of an item somewhere within sight, such as teleporting the plastique out of the bomb.
  
• A power that makes the character receive a +2 to all rolls that they make.
  

Thanks a bunch guys, seeing how this plays out will help me better understand what the system can and can't do, as well as how the system handles such extreme abilities.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Various Powers at Edge of System

 

Is there any particular reason you see a need to stretch and/or break the Hero system? This isn't an atom; we don't need to hit the system with absurd energies to see how things work. You learn how the system works by building things. I suggest you build a bit before you start looking at ways to bend things.

[sindyr]

Re: Various Powers at Edge of System

 

Is there any particular reason you see a need to stretch and/or break the Hero system? This isn't an atom; we don't need to hit the system with absurd energies to see how things work. You learn how the system works by building things. I suggest you build a bit before you start looking at ways to bend things.

 

What would help me most right now is if anyone can help answer the above build questions.

 

Thanks.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Various Powers at Edge of System

 

OK, first of all, I'm *that guy* - you'know, the one that caused the furor over on the Absolute Ability thread. Through all the controversy and conflict, a lot of really interesting ideas have come out of it - but before I go further with the third idea that completely replaces the other two, I need to do so "research", with the help of you kind people who are well versed in this system and how to employ it.

 

In short, before I go forward, I need to know which, if any, of the following abilities can accurately be represented in the Hero System, and how one would mechanically do that. Ultimately, for each of the following, I just need to know if the full functionality can be done exactly as presented, and if so, how.

 

I am grateful for any assistance on these matters.

 

A power that resurrects you after you have died, which has NO way of being prevented, no "True Death"

 

Technically Resurrection requires an "out" that cuases permanent death. But in all practical uses generally this is what Resurrecton means.

 

Mental Speech to any individual regardless of range or prior contact. You just think of the person you want to communciate mentally and boom' date=' you are. (Assume a willing participant)[/quote']

 

if only willing Targets - yes.

 

Your eyes glow' date=' providing enough illumination for you and others to see in the dark by. This effect continues even after your character has died.[/quote']

Yes.

You want to make it rain over the whole city.

Yes.

You want to make it rain everywhere on earth.

Yes.

You can become completely invisible to all senses' date=' including any equipment or clothes you are wearing, including weapons, including the use of powers. You and all your stuff are also desolid. You can also attack other people with your weapons normally, although your weapon cannot be seen (nor can the blood on it.) They cannot grab your weapon, as it is desolid, although it still does damage. Any bullets, paint, smoke etc flow completely through you.[/quote']

Yes (to a degree, as you cannot buy Invisibility to the "Usual Group" as a whole, theoretically someone could always make a specific Detect you haven't bought Invisibility To. Someone with Affects Desolid can still get you)

You can project Images to every sense group.

Yes.

You can project Images to every sense group' date=' and anyone witnessing the Images have no chance at all to recognize the Image is a Fake.[/quote']

Yes, to a degree (it's probably not going to be the Images Power in all likelyhood)

You have a power' date=' such as an Energy Blast, that cannot be Drained, Dispelled, or otherwise dimished or suppressed.[/quote']

Yes.

You cannot take damage or other negative effects (like pain or distractions) from the environment' date=' regardless of where you are, nor do you have any needs for sustenance, food, air, sleep, and the like.[/quote']

Damage: maybe. Rest of it: Yes.

Nothing you do costs Endurance.

Yes (I have built a character with this, in 350 points).

You can move a star with the power of your telekinetic mind.

Yes.

You can teleport precisely anywhere - even exactly 3' date='832 miles, 187 feet, and 4.7763 inches away.[/quote']

Yes.

You can teleport some else against their will precisely anywhere - even exactly 3' date='832 miles, 187 feet, and 4.7763 inches away.[/quote']

Yes.

You wish to take an Energy Blast with not just No Normal Defense' date=' but with No Defense - in others words, without needing to define and powers or circumstances as the defense.[/quote']

No.

The ability for a character's mind to jump back in time up to 2 minutes. The world is put back up to two minutes' date=' but the character still knows what happened. The character is the *only* one who know what happened in the future timeline that now may not occur.[/quote']

Yes.

What if it was up to two days? Longer?

Yes. Yes.

Resurrection of friends or "non bad guys" who have died in an area in the past 30 minutes.

Yes.

Performing two full actions simultaneously in a single phase. Such as teleporting into to an area and then using an Energy Blast.

Yes. (have you read the rules? Not being smart - I'm asking seriously)

Teleporting a visible item or visible piece or component of an item somewhere within sight' date=' such as teleporting the plastique out of the bomb.[/quote']

Yes.

A power that makes the character receive a +2 to all rolls that they make.

Yes.

Thanks a bunch guys' date=' seeing how this plays out will help me better understand what the system can and can't do, as well as how the system handles such extreme abilities.[/quote']

 

OK - several issues with this particular post. Some of these questions are basic rules (moving then attacking in a Phase), some would be answered by a solid read through of the rules (Time Travel, Inherent Advantage)

 

Also, you seem to be missing a major premise of the Hero System - Special Effect First, Power Second. (re: the Images you can't tell are Images: What are they doing specifically?)

 

Things like "Moving a star with telekinetic force" is as simple as buying enough Telekinetic Strength to move a star.

 

You've stated in an earlier thread/post that you have bought a good number of books; have you purchased them sight unseen? If I can assume that you have not read the rules, have no real idea what is contained in them to some detail, I can understand many of these questions.

 

But if you have read the rules and are still asking some of these questions I suggest you re-read the book. In all seriouesness. I answered these questions in a basic yes/no format without providing Power Builds because some are elementary and some I'd like to see what the SFX and a more detailed idea of what the desired actual result is before porviding more.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Various Powers at Edge of System

 

What would help me most right now is if anyone can help answer the above build questions.

I suggest you try actually playing the game first. Even if anyone actually answers your questions it's pretty clear you don't grasp the essentials enough to comprehend the answers.

[sindyr]

Re: Various Powers at Edge of System

 

Ghost angel, thanks for the yes/no's - on the one's that were yes's, how would one potentially build them?

 

Trebuchet, I am simply going to ask you to do one of to things: if you don't like my questions, then feel free to ignore them and not answer - or better yet, if you want to be helpful, then answer them.

 

But I am getting really really tired of having you attack me for asking questions and posing thoughts and ideas. It's getting to the point where I will need to determine which is the accepted solution on these boards, report you for moderation or attack back.

 

This is my process, if you either don't like it or don't approve, I don't really care. Either help or get out of the way. Else, I will need to take appropriate action.

 

The limits of my civility have been reached, sir.

 

To most of the rest of you, I appreciate your help and ask you to continue with your kind words and helpful answers. Thanks, all!

[ghost-angel]

Re: Various Powers at Edge of System

 

Pick a few of the desired builds, provide the Special Effect and a mundane wording of the desired result and I'll show you how the process of creating a Power works in the Hero System.

[sindyr]

Re: Various Powers at Edge of System

 

Let me possibly be more clear by highlighting the reasons for asking these particular questions:

 

A power that resurrects you after you have died, which has NO way of being prevented, no "True Death"

• A power that resurrects you after you have died, which has NO way of being prevented, no "True Death"

I saw the resurrection power under healing, can you arrange it to NOT have the True Death limitation? Perhaps one would have to build it not from Healing?

Mental Speech to any individual regardless of range or prior contact. You just think of the person you want to communicate mentally and boom, you are. (Assume a willing participant)

As a fiction staple, was wondering if this was covered because of the unlimited range and no prior contact - I didn't see a power that would allow for this.

Your eyes glow, providing enough illumination for you and others to see in the dark by. This effect continues even after your character has died.

This is to test whether one can build powers that still function even after character death.

You want to make it rain over the whole city.

Can you build a power to do this over such a large area with a limited number of CP that characters normally get?

You want to make it rain everywhere on earth.

Same. It's exploring the functional limit of what can be achieved with traditional character point levels.

You can become completely invisible to all senses, including any equipment or clothes you are wearing, including weapons, including the use of powers. You and all your stuff are also desolid. You can also attack other people with your weapons normally, although your weapon cannot be seen (nor can the blood on it.) They cannot grab your weapon, as it is desolid, although it still does damage. Any bullets, paint, smoke etc flow completely through you.

This is an extreme example of someone who cannot be detected or seemingly stopped, but who can still get you. The only piece of this that I think I know is that with Desolid one would have to purchase one's attacks at +2 - not sure how that works for weapons attacks. (some of these questions are because I haven't read the 600 page book yet) for example - I assume that weapon attacks can be built as either a basic characteristic roll without a skill, or a skill roll based on the weaopon, or ask a power like an HKA - but if built as a skill or characteristic based ability, how do you apply the +2? This is a complex example that I think would illuminate many aspects of the system.

You can project Images to every sense group.

Are there a limited number of sense groups? How many are there? I didn't see in the book a listing of them, although so far I have been skimming and upon reading from cover to cover may find such a list.

You can project Images to every sense group, and anyone witnessing the Images have no chance at all to recognize the Image is a Fake.

This is about how do you guarantee something which asks you to make a check normally.

You have a power, such as an Energy Blast, that cannot be Drained, Dispelled, or otherwise dimished or suppressed.

This is about, how do you protect powers, and is that protection overcome-able or absolute.

You cannot take damage or other negative effects (like pain or distractions) from the environment, regardless of where you are, nor do you have any needs for sustenance, food, air, sleep, and the like.

This is about using LifeSupport possibly, but taking it to cover all such kind of issue, not just ones that are listed. In other words, how do you get blanket coverage for ALL environments, even those you can't imagine right now?

Nothing you do costs Endurance.

I know that there is a +1/2 advantage for powers that does this, how do you apply it to your whole character sheet?

You can move a star with the power of your telekinetic mind.

Another "can this be done" for limited points kind of question. Or to put it another way, how mmuch mass maximum can you move with 300 points or so in Telekinesis? Can Megascale apply?

You can teleport precisely anywhere - even exactly 3,832 miles, 187 feet, and 4.7763 inches away.

This is not just about a long range, but a very high degree of precision while teleporting a looooong way away.

You can teleport some else against their will precisely anywhere - even exactly 3,832 miles, 187 feet, and 4.7763 inches away.

And this is about using that ability on others with the same precision, guessing that this would be the same power as above with Useable Against Others.

You wish to take an Energy Blast with not just No Normal Defense, but with No Defense - in others words, without needing to define and powers or circumstances as the defense.

Another question about how to accomplish the effect of something in the book that comes with a limiting factor, but not have the limiting factor.

The ability for a character's mind to jump back in time up to 2 minutes. The world is put back up to two minutes, but the character still knows what happened. The character is the *only* one who know what happened in the future timeline that now may not occur.

I have no idea how you do this - Time Travel in the book I think jumps your whole body back, but the way I describe it above, if you lost your arm you could jump back and your arm would no longer be unattached.

What if it was up to two days? Longer?

Just curious.

Resurrection of friends or "non bad guys" who have died in an area in the past 30 minutes.

This would be to see not only how one resurrect's others, but how to do it only to select categories of people in an area... Perhaps Healing/Resurrection with Useable Against Others and Area of Effect, possibly Selective?

Performing two full actions simultaneously in a single phase. Such as teleporting into to an area and then using an Energy Blast.

I have no idea how to perform simultaneous actions in this game.

Teleporting a visible item or visible piece or component of an item somewhere within sight, such as teleporting the plastique out of the bomb.

I guess teleportation by default allows you to teleport items around you? Like teleporting someone's gun to the other side of the room? Does it permit to teleport a component piece of an item, like the grille of a car (or the visible plastique of the bomb?)

A power that makes the character receive a +2 to all rolls that they make.

Another ability I don't know how to recreate. Maybe a VPP representing extra ability that simply adds X character points to each thing one has to roll for? This one's a real stumper for me.
I'll throw a new one out there - making it so you can't roll lower than than a 8, for example - how do you arrange that?

Thanks again to all the helpful folks.

[sindyr]

Re: Various Powers at Edge of System

 

Pick a few of the desired builds' date=' provide the Special Effect and a mundane wording of the desired result and I'll show you how the process of creating a Power works in the Hero System.[/quote']

 

I appreciate that, kind sir. Will take you up on that in the morning, if I may - thanks.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Various Powers at Edge of System

 

I'll pull a few notable things out:

 

Using "Affects Real World" on your Attacks while Desolid.

In a Superheroic Campaign you must purchase your Attack Ability - regardless of whether it is "an inborn ability" or "equipment" or anything else. You simply apply the +2 Advantage to that Power.

 

In a Heroic Game where you get Equipment for 'free' you would purchase a Naked Advantage; Affects Real World, typically to a high enough Active Point level to use every piece of equipment you'd encounter in the game - for most games this number is 90 Active Points.

 

Everything you do costs 0END: simply purchase every END Costing ability on your Character with the "Costs 0 END" Advantage, including Running, Strength, etc. . .

 

Enough Telekinesis to move a Star on 350 Character Points of a Suggested Standard Superhero: given enough Limitations you can bring the cost of anything down to a very low number. Whether it is appropriate is a different matter completely (generally the answer is NO).

 

+2 to all Rolls: Overall Skill Levels.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Various Powers at Edge of System

 

Something that might help everyone help you is to know what system(s) you have played other than HERO.

 

The main HERO rules (5e or 5er) at first glance appear to be just about character creation (I'm pretty sure I am not the first to point this out).

 

They are far more than that. They are a toolkit for Game Masters to create the exact game they want to run. Since nearly everything in the rules is written from that mindset the 'edge' for a particular campaign is whatever the GM sets it to. I don't think there is a GM of ANY roleplaying system out there that hasn't made a custom rule or ruling in his campaign at some time or another. This used to be frowned upon by some systems years ago. Now it usually encouraged (as HERO does) and is a feature, not a flaw.

[CTaylor]

Re: Various Powers at Edge of System

 

OK here is my input. Remember: there's usually more than one way to build everything in Hero, so these are just some of the possible answers.

 

A power that resurrects you after you have died, which has NO way of being prevented, no "True Death"

 

It's very expensive but I built a necromancer spell that does this. It is a Duplicate with a trigger: you make a copy of yourself as soon as you die from a prepared body hidden away somewhere else. It's quite spendy because of the range required to make it work reliably at a great distance. You can also buy yourself regeneration that works through death and get your GM to agree to let there be no loophole that makes you dead forever (in most superheroic games this won't be difficult to argue for).

 

Mental Speech to any individual regardless of range or prior contact. You just think of the person you want to communciate mentally and boom, you are. (Assume a willing participant)

 

You can do this with telepathy and Detect mind: targeting, run you around... 50-60 points to be reliable.

 

You want to make it rain over the whole city.

 

Change Environment: rain, megascale

 

You want to make it rain everywhere on earth.

 

Change Environment: rain, lots of megascale. Depending on how literal you mean, you might need to buy indirect to make it rain indoors and inside caves, etc.

 

You can become completely invisible to all senses, including any equipment or clothes you are wearing, including weapons, including the use of powers. You and all your stuff are also desolid. You can also attack other people with your weapons normally, although your weapon cannot be seen (nor can the blood on it.) They cannot grab your weapon, as it is desolid, although it still does damage. Any bullets, paint, smoke etc flow completely through you.

 

Desolidification and Invisibility, plus invisible power effects on your attacks. Very, very expensive - especially if you want to attack while desolid.

 

You can project Images to every sense group.

 

Straight up Images power, check the rules for how to buy it with multiple sense groups.

 

You can project Images to every sense group, and anyone witnessing the Images have no chance at all to recognize the Image is a Fake.

 

You can effectively make this (huge penalties to PER rolls), but not 100% absolutely because Hero games by intent and design has no absolutes. That's a cardinal rule of the "meta-system" but you could house rule one in if you wanted. This applies to several of the questions you asked: if you want to make an absolute power you'll have to either have a very accommodating GM or run the game yourself.

 

You cannot take damage or other negative effects (like pain or distractions) from the environment, regardless of where you are, nor do you have any needs for sustenance, food, air, sleep, and the like.

 

Just plain Life Support depending on what you mean. You would take damage from living on the surface of the sun no matter what your life support was built as, but you can buy LOTS of energy defense (and flash defense, and power defense depending on the GM) or desolidification to simulate this ability.

 

Nothing you do costs Endurance.

 

Buy everything with reduced END cost. Strength, running, all powers, etc.

 

You can move a star with the power of your telekinetic mind.

 

Sure, telekinesis with lots of increased range (don't want to get too close). Given that the Sun weighs two billion, billion, billion tons (and its not a big star, the largest known star weighs 200 times that much) this is going to take an obscene amount of strength, but it is possible.

 

You can teleport precisely anywhere - even exactly 3,832 miles, 187 feet, and 4.7763 inches away.

 

Many points of teleport, or a multipower with various different teleport builds (one with megascale, one long distance, one medium distance etc). Very basic build.

 

You can teleport some else against their will precisely anywhere - even exactly 3,832 miles, 187 feet, and 4.7763 inches away.

 

See above, but add "usable as an attack" advantage.

 

The ability for a character's mind to jump back in time up to 2 minutes. The world is put back up to two minutes, but the character still knows what happened. The character is the *only* one who know what happened in the future timeline that now may not occur.

 

This is up to the GM, but there are a few ways to do this. The first and easiest is to buy lightning reflexes, teleportation, high danger sense, and lots of levels to represent "I knew that was coming." Think special effect first, then powers that represent that as you build - in this case being ready for any surprise and the ability to move wherever you need to be. What this build assumes is that in every circumstance you've witnessed what happened and lived through it, then already jumped back and did it better without going through the experience twice in actual play time. Another way is to buy dimensional travel: back in time, the time frame is irrelevant.

 

Resurrection of friends or "non bad guys" who have died in an area in the past 30 minutes.

 

If your GM allows it, Healing can resurrect from the dead. I don't, but there is a way to bring someone back... at a horrible price.

 

Performing two full actions simultaneously in a single phase. Such as teleporting into to an area and then using an Energy Blast.

 

There are several ways of doing this, such as linked powers but the example you gave is basic rules: you can move and attack in the same phase.

 

Teleporting a visible item or visible piece or component of an item somewhere within sight, such as teleporting the plastique out of the bomb.

 

This would probably require a roll to do well, and a special sense to find the target (a targeting sense), but teleportation bought Usable as an Attack would do it quite easily.

 

A power that makes the character receive a +2 to all rolls that they make.

 

2 overall levels (or more, in case you want to make more than one roll at a time).

 

Now, as others have said, build some powers, play the game, sit down with a GM. Most of the stuff you're asking strongly suggests you don't know the rules well and if you fool around with them a while you will find you can make anything.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Various Powers at Edge of System

 

Now' date=' as others have said, build some powers, play the game, sit down with a GM. Most of the stuff you're asking strongly suggests you don't know the rules well and if you fool around with them a while you will find you can make anything.[/quote']

 

One thing to note about being able to Make Anything with Hero is that while this is true, it's not always cheap, straightforward, or easy.

 

One thing about sinadyr's requests is he asked to do some expensive things on a standard character point build. I'm assuming he meant Superheroic given the nature of the request. But a 150 point Heroic Character is going to be able to buy more abilities than a 75 point Heroic Character and less abilities than a 350 point Superheroic Character.

 

Steve Long once built the ability to stop time all over the universe, everyone at once. This is no small ability - it cost over 7.5 Million Real Points. Obviously outside the realm of your average Superhero!

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

Re: Various Powers at Edge of System

 

... sorry. I agree with Trebuchet on this one.

[jtelson]

Re: Various Powers at Edge of System

 

A power that resurrects you after you have died' date=' which has NO way of being prevented, no "True Death"[/quote']

Basic Power: Healing, assuming you're the GM, wave or the normal limitations on the ability. You seem to want it to be absolute and it's your campaign.

 

Mental Speech to any individual regardless of range or prior contact. You just think of the person you want to communciate mentally and boom' date=' you are. (Assume a willing participant)[/quote']

Basic Powers: No need for it to be willing, Mind Scan and Telepathy cover this.

 

Your eyes glow' date=' providing enough illumination for you and others to see in the dark by. This effect continues even after your character has died.[/quote']

The even after you've died a bit weird but Basic Powers: Darkvision Usable as attack Uncontrolled Continuous maybe Area or Effect.

 

You want to make it rain over the whole city

 

You want to make it rain everywhere on earth.

Basic Power: Change Environment, Megascale makes it cheaper but you don't need it.

 

You can become completely invisible to all senses' date=' including any equipment or clothes you are wearing, including weapons, including the use of powers. You and all your stuff are also desolid. You can also attack other people with your weapons normally, although your weapon cannot be seen (nor can the blood on it.) They cannot grab your weapon, as it is desolid, although it still does damage. Any bullets, paint, smoke etc flow completely through you.[/quote']

Basic Powers: Invis and Desolid. You have to pay for the attacks you want to effect the real world (+2 advantage)

 

You can project Images to every sense group.

 

You can project Images to every sense group, and anyone witnessing the Images have no chance at all to recognize the Image is a Fake.

You're getting hung up on terminology. Basic Powers: Summon, Duplication and/or Transform are likely what you're looking for. Force wall w/ variable sfx is a nice add one as well.

 

You have a power' date=' such as an Energy Blast, that cannot be Drained, Dispelled, or otherwise dimished or suppressed.[/quote']

Odd but Basic: Inherent

 

You cannot take damage or other negative effects (like pain or distractions) from the environment' date=' regardless of where you are, nor do you have any needs for sustenance, food, air, sleep, and the like.[/quote']

Basic Powers: Life Support, If you're really concerned add in Desolid.

 

Nothing you do costs Endurance.

Basic Power: 0-End Advantage

 

You can move a star with the power of your telekinetic mind.

Basic Power: Telekinesis, megascale makes it less expensive.

 

You can teleport precisely anywhere - even exactly 3,832 miles, 187 feet, and 4.7763 inches away.

You can teleport some else against their will precisely anywhere - even exactly 3,832 miles, 187 feet, and 4.7763 inches away.

Basic Powers: Teleport, Telport Usabale as Attack

 

You wish to take an Energy Blast with not just No Normal Defense' date=' but with No Defense - in others words, without needing to define and powers or circumstances as the defense.[/quote']

GM Fiat on top of basic powers: NND, Does Body, GM defines defense.

 

The ability for a character's mind to jump back in time up to 2 minutes. The world is put back up to two minutes, but the character still knows what happened. The character is the *only* one who know what happened in the future timeline that now may not occur.

 

What if it was up to two days? Longer?

Basic Power: Extra Dimensional Movement

 

Resurrection of friends or "non bad guys" who have died in an area in the past 30 minutes.

Basic Power: Healing w/ Ressurect

 

Performing two full actions simultaneously in a single phase. Such as teleporting into to an area and then using an Energy Blast.

Complex use of Duplication although this is generally a poorly worded request for more speed by someone who is new to the system.

 

Teleporting a visible item or visible piece or component of an item somewhere within sight' date=' such as teleporting the plastique out of the bomb.[/quote']

Basic Power(s): Teleport UAA or transform depending on how the GM rules on fine manipulation with TP UAA. (You're the GM if you want it to be simle Teleport UAA)

 

A power that makes the character receive a +2 to all rolls that they make.

This is really a poorly worded effect from a player but by way of an example of how you might do it. 14 overall skill levels (Can only apply to 2 levels to any one activity) provides +2 to OCV, DCV, EOCV, EDCV and up to 3 skills in one phase, can drop it to 10 to remove the (E)DCV bits since not technically rolls.

Also Aid to all attacks (Capped at +2 effect on any rolls associated with affected powers)

[Trebuchet]

Re: Various Powers at Edge of System

 

Trebuchet, I am simply going to ask you to do one of to things: if you don't like my questions, then feel free to ignore them and not answer - or better yet, if you want to be helpful, then answer them.

 

But I am getting really really tired of having you attack me for asking questions and posing thoughts and ideas. It's getting to the point where I will need to determine which is the accepted solution on these boards, report you for moderation or attack back.

 

This is my process, if you either don't like it or don't approve, I don't really care. Either help or get out of the way. Else, I will need to take appropriate action.

This is a message board. I have as much right to post my opinions on your questions as you have to post them; and I don't particularly care for being threatened just because you don't like the responses you're getting.

 

If you don't like my posts, feel free to put me on your Ignore List. I'm sure it's a board feature you'll get a lot of use from.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Various Powers at Edge of System

 

 

• A power that resurrects you after you have died, which has NO way of being prevented, no "True Death"
  
• You can become completely invisible to all senses, including any equipment or clothes you are wearing, including weapons, including the use of powers. You and all your stuff are also desolid. You can also attack other people with your weapons normally, although your weapon cannot be seen (nor can the blood on it.) They cannot grab your weapon, as it is desolid, although it still does damage. Any bullets, paint, smoke etc flow completely through you.
  
• You can project Images to every sense group, and anyone witnessing the Images have no chance at all to recognize the Image is a Fake.
  
• You have a power, such as an Energy Blast, that cannot be Drained, Dispelled, or otherwise dimished or suppressed.
  
• You can move a star with the power of your telekinetic mind.
  
• You can teleport precisely anywhere - even exactly 3,832 miles, 187 feet, and 4.7763 inches away.
  
• You can teleport some else against their will precisely anywhere - even exactly 3,832 miles, 187 feet, and 4.7763 inches away.
  
• You wish to take an Energy Blast with not just No Normal Defense, but with No Defense - in others words, without needing to define and powers or circumstances as the defense.

The abilities above, I think, will rest on how you decide to do your absolute abilities in your game.

 

I know that I could make all of this work in my game and, in play, would do this. I'm not sure you would accept the builds as, from my experiece, you would indicate that they fell under one or more fallacies.

 

A number of other listed abilities are almost simply GM discretion stuff:

 

 

• A power that resurrects you after you have died, which has NO way of being prevented, no "True Death"
  
• The ability for a character's mind to jump back in time up to 2 minutes. The world is put back up to two minutes, but the character still knows what happened. The character is the *only* one who know what happened in the future timeline that now may not occur.
  
• What if it was up to two days? Longer?
  
• Resurrection of friends or "non bad guys" who have died in an area in the past 30 minutes.
  
• Teleporting a visible item or visible piece or component of an item somewhere within sight, such as teleporting the plastique out of the bomb.
  
• A power that makes the character receive a +2 to all rolls that they make.
  

 

A GM can decide that any of these things are possible in his game and come up with a costing. It's nothing that you buy off the shelf or that would be guaranteed portability between campaigns.

 

Time travel and resurrection are tricky things to model (and to play) but are not impossible to cost.

 

In most discussions on here requests for builds are most often met with - give us some context on why you want to build it, how it is to be used - and then you get comments and suggestions and often disagreements. You have presented a list of things that the system does not provide off the shelf for no (seeming) particular reason other than "I wonder if this will break things?"

 

Doc

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Various Powers at Edge of System

 

Trebuchet, I am simply going to ask you to do one of to things: if you don't like my questions, then feel free to ignore them and not answer - or better yet, if you want to be helpful, then answer them.

 

But I am getting really really tired of having you attack me for asking questions and posing thoughts and ideas. It's getting to the point where I will need to determine which is the accepted solution on these boards, report you for moderation or attack back.

 

This is my process, if you either don't like it or don't approve, I don't really care. Either help or get out of the way. Else, I will need to take appropriate action.

 

The limits of my civility have been reached, sir.

 

You know, the idea is that we discuss stuff. If you put something up for discussion then you have to expect people to discuss it - even if you dont like what they say.

 

As you point out to Treb, you can simply ignore his comments and move on to the ones you want to read.

 

I think you need to lighten up a bit, it's only a game....

 

 

Doc

[Hugh Neilson]

[sindyr]

Re: Various Powers at Edge of System

 

Thank you everybody, MOST helpful. As is obvious, part of this is to try to figure out what's already possible in the system so I don't try to fix what isn't broken - I don't want my ignorance that X is possible already to make me try to come up with a way to do X when it already exists.

 

I will spend a few hours re-reading the replies, and then post back.

 

Thanks again, you guys rock!

[CTaylor]

Re: Various Powers at Edge of System

 

You have to realize, nothing is impossible in the Hero System, its just that some things are either awkward, or require a GM to decide are permissible in his game.

[tarragon]

Re: Various Powers at Edge of System

 

[*]The ability for a character's mind to jump back in time up to 2 minutes. The world is put back up to two minutes, but the character still knows what happened. The character is the *only* one who know what happened in the future timeline that now may not occur.

[*]What if it was up to two days? Longer?

 

Other people have talked about this in in specific and reasoning from FX in general but I want to emphasize it one more time with an example.

 

The question you asked is how do I model jumping back in time. You don't model that directly.

 

The GM and players need to work together and figure out what it means in the game and what will be fun. The question needs to be expanded to what does jumping back in time get me and how do I model those effects and it's a process? What would be fun and be allowed in game and what won't be allowed? -- And my own answers as a rusty GM

 

The GM first has to decide if time travel is possible. -- Sure, this seems like a particularly neat effect, so yeah I'll open up the whole can of time travel worms.

 

If yes the GM needs to decide what to do about paradoxes. Can the big events of the world be changed? What about the details? Can the details be changed but the big events remain? Is there a far future organization of timecops putting everything right that goes wrong? -- To the NOW, events get fixed in time the longer those events have existed the more fixed they are. It is possible to change the details but the events still happen. The future is not fixed, but to future people their past is fixed. If you go back and kill Hitler WWII still happens but the Germans rally around a different man. Pressing the "Earthquake button" can be stopped completely, no earthquake, if it happened 2 minutes ago. If it was 2 days ago an earthquake still happens but damage can be limited. If it was 2 years you can't stop it, either someone else triggers it, or it was just a natural earthquake, but maybe damage can be mitigated a little by retargeting it.The more often something is gone over the more it becomes fixed and the less each attempt can do. Call it a version of the many worlds theory. There are no time cops becasue from their point of view no big events can be changed.

 

Next the GM answers what does that mean at the play level. This is where you start blending the mechanics in.

• A character can go back two minutes and change things, even big events. It's dramatic to shift back and retry stopping that nuke launch. -- GMs fiat in big dramatic circumstances particularly if the players failed something I'll let the character rewind time. I'll replay the whole chunk of time for the whole group. This time the tension is really high, becasue they know they failed once. But they have to careful the bad guys actions can change their actions too as they react to things turning out differently. Bought as EDM and heavily limited. I'm not letting this happen for every bank robber that gets away. Heavy limitations required.
  
• It could be an advantage in combat, you know how you opponent acts and attacks. -- Buy this as extra levels that fade over time as the current reality starts to differ from the reality you remember. Maybe 2 levels on a 1 turn continuing charge, 2 more levels on a 1 minute continuing charge and 2 more on a 2 minute continuing charge. A custom -1/4 to link these charges and model the instant you've jumped back to. You'll have 6 levels for a short period of time as sort of an uber competence/I knew you were going to do that period of time.
  
• You know things like how long you have to hold out before the rest of the team arrives and that an ambush is waiting around that corner. -- This is precog with limited control and possibly linked to the levels to model the 2 minutes and a tightly limited timeframe, buy it as such and I'll feed you info that fits in the time frame marked by the other effects like the levels.
  
• You know disposition of forces and other things that you can't normally know. You know there are 8 bank robbers, 2 in the vault, 16 hostages, and bulldozer is in there as hired muscle, but you don't know that one of the police captains will reveal himself as another villain and cause a major distraction if things go to far wrong -- This is modeled as a limited clarisentience, only to know what happened in one version of the future.
  

 

So most of the time it plays out that you go though a fight and then jump back. We model this by having you trigger all your levels and the precog at the beginning of a fight and it's just understood that you've done this before. As GM I feed you the right kind of info to make that happen, "And in a couple seconds is the point where Anklyosaur jumps out of the bushes at you.

 

There are other questions that need to be answered as well. Does the character go back only in mind or does future damage come back with him? If he jumps back to a time when he was sleeping or unconscious does he remain asleep or unconscious? Can he bring others back too? Answering these questions may give you ideas for other powers.

 

Now that you get some experience and want to expand it to 2 days there are some other effects to buy.

• Remove some of the limits on the precog to allow for farther out knowledge
  
• Add some wealth to indicate your "luck" with the stock market and the lottery.
  
• Add some specialized skill levels with skills that can be helped by advanced warning of events or simply the practice of doing it a second time. Various business and interpersonal skills would benefit.
  
• Some levels of luck to model taking to time to set up things you need. "Of course I have that key".
  
• Some longer term levels, maybe even unlimited overall levels to model constantly jumping back.
  
• And for no points you get to be a great plot hook for the GM. "OMG the president has just been assassinated, I've only got 2 days to figure out who did it and stop it."
  

 

Altogether It's going to get expensive. The info you can know is going to be crazy useful, and a fun plot hook for the GM. You can also tone up or down the levels depending on how well you can capitalize on what you learn.

 

The point is, to make this very powerful effect happen in the game it takes some work on the part of both the GM and the player. You have to figure out how it fits in the game you may have to define part of the game around the effect. You have to figure out what will be fun for both players and GM and build on that.

 

Up above you'll notice I explicitly defined the way time travel works to prevent big changes of historical events. I'm not fond of the idea of GMing a Harry Turtledove story and we didn't need a world where that could done to model the power as described.

 

Had a player said they wanted to be able to jump back in time and change major historical events I would not have allowed it as it doesn't fit the campaign I run. But who knows that idea could spark the idea for a different campaign that does do that kind of thing.

 

So the final question is is what I designed above going to be fun to play? From a players point of view. Yes probably. From the GM's poitn fo view? Uhhhm maybe. A lot of it could be fun, but mysteries are going to be changed quite a bit and ambushes and certain kinds of surprises are going to almost non existent. I might let it go, but only if the player understood that the character may have to change if it's to much.

[sindyr]

Re: Various Powers at Edge of System

 

Other people have talked about this in in specific and reasoning from FX in general but I want to emphasize it one more time with an example.

 

The question you asked is how do I model jumping back in time. You don't model that directly.

 

Well let me add more details - I actually ran a game in the Torg system where a character had certain limited time powers. One of those powers was to jump back in time up to a minute. Sixty seconds was the limit of his power, once he had jumped back a total of sixty seconds, whether in one jump or several smaller ones, he couldn't jump back anymore. And every second he jumped back went into his "time bank" putting him under more and more stress. To relieve the stress he could choose to "burn off" time in his time bank by being effectively frozen and unaware for the same amount of time, letting the world's time and his time renormalize.

 

The good thing is that unlike Hiro in Heroes, when this character jumps back in time, it undoes whatever happened, even to the character. One example of an early instictual use of his power is when he stepped off a curb and got hit by a bus. As he lay dying of massive wounds, he jumped back 30 seconds and chose not to cross the street, and the bus didn't hit him. Later, he had to *unclench* his time muscle - this made him miss 30 seconds of time, during which the outside world saw him as unmoving and still - and completely vulnerable.

 

So this character can't really hop through time like a true time traveller, but he does have a bit of an *undo* button.

 

What I would really like to do is have the GM have to undo everything that happened for the last X seconds, but the character still knows what he experienced even though that time is undone.

 

GMing this character, for example, he could walk into a room, get the lay of the land, zip back 40 seconds, burn off 40 seconds of downtime, and be ready to enter the room knowing what was inside.

 

Or he could pump someone for information, and then undo it - he still has the info, but know he never asked the questions or got the answers.

 

Or in a suprise calamity, he can jump back and deal with the happening knowing what is happening as it starts.

 

One thing I especially like is roleplaying through the use of this - especially since neither the players nor I know when he will use the power until he does. Since it has a cost, I can't make the decision for him.

 

I think the only way to make this power work correctly is to make it work precisely the way it is experienced - that is, allow the player and his character to roleplay out until the moment that he wishes to jump back 40 seconds, then roll it back.

 

How can I build that?

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Various Powers at Edge of System

 

Edm

[tarragon]

Re: Various Powers at Edge of System

 

How can I build that?

 

I didn't really mean to get into how to build this specific power, but a more general though process based on the example, but I will.

 

If you want to rewind time and make people play it out before you do you go to EDM and convince the GM and other players it's a good idea to re play a chunk of game every time he uses the power.

 

I think you could do it just fine with EDM, I don't think it's a good idea. The character is off on there own doing stuff and then zips back to tell everyone else what happens. That makes this character the center of attention way to much and makes everyone else roleplay the same event again pretending they don't remember it. If you play time based on this characters timeline they will endup getting the spotlight, alot, like all the time.

 

If the GM is OK with this route it'll work fine. It should be very expensive though, it's very powerful.

 

I would prefer to run game time based on the perspective of the rest of the characters and run that characters future exploits happen in handwavium space except in very dramatic circumstances.

 

I game some examples of powers above. You new examples can be done as well. Working with my same assumptions as above...

 

GMing this character' date=' for example, he could walk into a room, get the lay of the land, zip back 40 seconds, burn off 40 seconds of downtime, and be ready to enter the room knowing what was inside.[/quote']

Clairvoyance.

 

Or he could pump someone for information' date=' and then undo it - he still has the info, but know he never asked the questions or got the answers.[/quote']

Telepathy with a time travel fx and requires skill roll of interrogation.

Or a ton of penalty skill levels to offset doing a skill faster than normal plus naked invisible power effects (on a skill, odd but OK).

 

Or in a suprise calamity' date=' he can jump back and deal with the happening knowing what is happening as it starts.[/quote']

Either or both of Teleport with a trigger limited to get out of the way and Regen with a "didn't actually happen" FX.

 

-rr