Building Hero with Hero

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Building Hero with Hero

 

I wouldn't allow a Choke Hold to simulate the special effects of a Bear Hug. I would allow both to do choking damage per the Environment (suffocation/drowning) rules.

 

At least that's internally consistent, although the ability to add an infinite REC suppress at no END cost as long as you maintain the Grab still seems a very powerful freebie.

 

So if I have a 1/2d6 Water Blast (3 points), AoE 1 hex Accurate(+1/2), Continuous (+1?), Uncontrolled (+1/2?), Line of Sight Range (+1/2) [10 AP], No Knockback (-1/4), no STUN (-1 1/4?) [4 real points], would that allow me to englobe a target's head in water and invoke the suffocation rules for as long as the END I pumped into it holds (1 phase per END)?

 

Or do I have to increase the cost to 1/2d6 Water Blast (3 points), NND - need not breathe/breathe water (+1), AoE 1 hex Accurate(+1/2), Continuous (+1?), Uncontrolled (+1/2?), Line of Sight Range (+1/2) [13 AP], no STUN (-1 1/4?) [6 real points]

 

I'll pay the 6 points if you want...Actually, why not:

 

1/2d6 Water Blast (3 points), NND - natural/non-focused need not breathe/breathe water (+1), AoE 1 hex Accurate(+1/2), Continuous (+1?), Uncontrolled (+1/2?), Line of Sight Range (+1/2), AoE Radius, Selective (+1 1/4), Megascale 1" area = 1 km (+1/4) [18 AP], no range (-1/2), no STUN (-1 1/4?) [7 real points]

 

Now I can englobe anyone I can see within 1 km, right? Seems like a good combat opener to me. Now what shall I do with my remaining 343 points to ensure I can last long enough for the poor suckers to drown? Well, I only spent 7 points, so I suspect I can build a character who's pretty competitive with the other PC's. I think my first purchase will be Life Support: Need Not Breathe - maybe Usable By Others!

 

Sure, someone can likely breathe water - that's why I have teammates and another 300+ points to spend on my other abilities.

 

Of course, this might just be a Fantasy game spell - then I only have 143 points left to spend (assuming magic limitations don't further reduce the cost of my Create Angry Water spell).

 

By the way, the NND defense is to note that I can block any scuba or similar gear, create water in a helmet, etc.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Building Hero with Hero

 

Firebug in Predators has a Pyrokinesis Power to set things on fire (1 pip RKA with Sticky & other stuffs).

 

I would be surprised if any GM didn't use the Fire rules from the Environment section (or Villainy Amok if they had that) take over once the fire started to spread, through a building say.

 

Looks like he's paying for the ability to set things on fire, not getting it for free because he has a specific SFX, though. And once the fire takes hold, he has no further control over it - our choke holders seem unlikely to strangle themselves.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Building Hero with Hero

 

Looks like he's paying for the ability to set things on fire' date=' not getting it for free because he has a specific SFX, though.[/quote']

 

He's paying 8 points to set one Hex, and surrounding Hexes, on fire. Sticky does not go beyond the first Hex per Sticky Rules.

 

The Environment Rules take over and set the four story apartment building on fire after that.

 

If the 1 Pip RKA were "monkey gas" or whatever, there's nothing saying it goes beyond the immediate effects around it. Fire does spread.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Building Hero with Hero

 

Respectfully,

 

Using the Environment Rules is part of the game. I disagree 100% with your entire premise.

 

I'm not trying to be obtuse, well, no more than normal, but of course the environment rules are part of the game, I wholeheartedly accept that. Moreover if we work from the premise that if it is a rule then it cannot be wrong because it is a rule and that is how you play the game* then, fine, it is not wrong, but only for a certain value of wrong; it can still stand to be improved and if there is a better version just waiting for us out there and we adopt that as the new gold standard thenthe current rules remain 'right then', but become 'wrong now'.

 

I'm saying the rules for dealing with being unable to breathe (and actually having to) either need to be re-jigged to fit better with the rest of the system or to remove some of the arbitrariness that the current rules invoke (and I'm looking at the wildly differing 'level effect' of not being able to take recoveries**) and if we can do that in a way that we can build in a straightforward way as part of the system then, well, cool.

 

Being able to build 'suffocation' and also having it as an environment rule is not a contradictory aim any more than being able to build a gun and having guns as parts of the gaame world you get for free is contradictory. It depends on the game and the circumstances.

 

Personally I'd be happier with the choke hold if, instead of fudging (and I mean that int he sense, as mentioned above, that yes, it is a rule so it can't be 'wrong', but that's only 'til we think of something better) there was a martial arts element: choke (invokes the suffocation rules and prevents the target making any noise verbally whilst in effect - usually by the continued application fo a grab) 1 point. Then a choke hold could simply be a grab that did normal STR damage but also, you know, suffocated the target, and always targeted the neck.

 

Someone without martial arts who was able to target the neck could also choke someone. Which seems realistic.

 

That is my premise.

 

 

 

 

*and we are keen on circular argument

 

** and why do we have this rule? I'm assuming that it is there so that you cannot recover the damage you take from suffocation and therefore have the potential for a high enough REC to survive suffocation. If so it is simply not thought right through to the end as there are better and far less arbitrary ways to accomplish this.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Building Hero with Hero

 

Removing the ability to take recoveries seems like an awful lot of something for nothing' date=' perhaps oddly, more so in my mind than the ability to kill an already unconscious foe.[/quote']

 

Back in the day, the inability to take Recoveries was what holding your breath was all about. The whole 1 END/Phase thing came about because, you can't just hold your breath all day without some cost. The STUN as END is a consequence of continuing to spend END when you're out, whether you're holding your breath and/or drowning (hereafter HBAD) or not. I think the BODY as STUN is a special case to HBAD, but I'm not 100% sure.

 

So: knowing full well I may take some heat for this, I hereby suggest that Suppressing REC to 0 and maintaining it is sufficient to trigger the HBAD rules, at least until something better comes along.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Building Hero with Hero

 

Firebug in Predators has a Pyrokinesis Power to set things on fire (1 pip RKA with Sticky & other stuffs).

 

I would be surprised if any GM didn't use the Fire rules from the Environment section (or Villainy Amok if they had that) take over once the fire started to spread, through a building say.

 

And if I was the GM I'd not allow the hex and those hexes surrounding it to instantly burst into flame (unless they were filled with something particularly volatile) - it would take some while to build up, just as you could start a fire with a Zippo - it is unlikely to threaten anyone immediately, and once it has built to those levels it is beyond your control anyway (baring another power). It also relies on there being flammable material about, so it remains largely within the control of the GM how effective it is. In terms of a Hero combat, such a power would be of generally extremely limited utility. What you'd not be getting is a free 1 hex radius 2d6 RKA.

 

Basically he's getting what he paid for: not that much in this case.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Building Hero with Hero

 

Back in the day' date=' the inability to take Recoveries [i']was[/i] what holding your breath was all about. The whole 1 END/Phase thing came about because, you can't just hold your breath all day without some cost. The STUN as END is a consequence of continuing to spend END when you're out, whether you're holding your breath and/or drowning (hereafter HBAD) or not. I think the BODY as STUN is a special case to HBAD, but I'm not 100% sure.

 

So: knowing full well I may take some heat for this, I hereby suggest that Suppressing REC to 0 and maintaining it is sufficient to trigger the HBAD rules, at least until something better comes along.

 

Noooooo....

 

Don't touch REC. Treat it as a NND Drain Stun END and Body (and, I'd suggest, INT and Pre too) and have a 5/hour recovery so you don't get it back while you are suffocation. You don't need to touch REC and it has the same effect on everyone.

 

Doing anything to REC or recoveries is what makes suffocation impossible to scale because it requires a different level of effect on every target, whereas having your characteristics adjusted works the same on everyone, and is not that far off what happens now.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Building Hero with Hero

 

Sean,

 

Try looking at it this way...

 

Choke hold is a special maneuver that is targeting a known disadvantage* that all (normal) humans are known to have.

 

* needs to breath air

 

The ONLY hole in the rules I see right now is that a non-powered character without Martial Arts can't 'choke' another character in combat. They can only do it to an already unconscious (knocked out) character.

 

This looks easy enough to fix.

New Free optional maneuver - Neck Grab

If using Hit Locations allow the grabbing character to take a called shot to the Head (-8). Make it an activate roll if not using Hit Locations. If he succeeds he can deny the target the ability to breath until the grab is broken. No other damage is dealt (unlike the MA Choke Hold). The target spends a minimum of 1 END per phase for breathing plus any END used in attempting to escape the grab. Once he's out of END he starts burning STUN. Once he's out of STUN he starts to take BODY.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Building Hero with Hero

 

Noooooo....

 

Don't touch REC. Treat it as a NND Drain Stun END and Body (and, I'd suggest, INT and Pre too) and have a 5/hour recovery so you don't get it back while you are suffocation. You don't need to touch REC and it has the same effect on everyone.

 

Doing anything to REC or recoveries is what makes suffocation impossible to scale because it requires a different level of effect on every target, whereas having your characteristics adjusted works the same on everyone, and is not that far off what happens now.

 

How many Active Points is the ocean?

 

6d6 Suppress REC, Standard Effect, NND (at 60 Active Points), will take out 9 REC at a shot. Hit them with it twice to take out 18 (but note you're spending 12 END per Phase). I'll note that a brick with 60 STR and 28 CON has 18 REC at base, and is unlikely to have bought it up.

 

I'm willing to stretch the concept to the point that a person with more REC (who is considered healthier) is more resistant to a typical "make him suffocate" Power than Horace Wimp.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Building Hero with Hero

 

The defense to Suffocation (other than Life Support) is having more END.

Suffocation by itself does not do STUN or BODY.

It's only when the character is out of END that the other effects begin.

 

REC is something that characters who need to breath only get when they CAN breath. It's a default genre condition of modeling human(oid?) characters.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Building Hero with Hero

 

So maybe not having Suppressed all of his REC means you haven't closed off his airway completely.

 

And now I'm thinking, maybe the Choke Hold needs to be built as Suppress REC.

 

I'm liking this more and more the more I think about it.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Building Hero with Hero

 

So maybe not having Suppressed all of his REC means you haven't closed off his airway completely.

 

And now I'm thinking, maybe the Choke Hold needs to be built as Suppress REC.

 

I'm liking this more and more the more I think about it.

 

Rather than a large die Suppress, a smaller Continuous one works...

 

Something on the order of this...

2d6 Suppress REC (10), Cont (+1) 0 End (+1/2: oxygen removes effect) NND (+1/2, defence is cheaper/more common than Power DEF)

Must follow appropriate attack (-1/2)

 

I'm totally OK with it taking more than a single phase of choking to drop a high REC characters stat. Makes sense even

 

For a nastier "choke hold" style maneuver that cuts off oxygenated blood to the brain, its easy enough to advantage the Suppress to add additional stats to the effect.

 

None of this changes the fact that strangulation/suffocation/choking is one of the more common ways for totally normal folk to kill each other, and probably should honestly be both cheap and easy to do. It is a bit unbalancing tho.

 

Maybe what we need are some more explicit "Everyman Disadvantages" to counterbalance the cost of base stats and Everyman skills

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Building Hero with Hero

 

What is being referred to when Namor and Aquaman are described as being dependent on water?

 

They both breath water.

 

When characters like them are modeled in HERO the idea is that they are taking a type of suffocation effect. It's not an attack or any other power. It's a disadvantage.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Building Hero with Hero

 

6d6 Suppress REC, Standard Effect, NND (at 60 Active Points), will take out 9 REC at a shot. Hit them with it twice to take out 18 (but note you're spending 12 END per Phase). I'll note that a brick with 60 STR and 28 CON has 18 REC at base, and is unlikely to have bought it up.

 

I'm willing to stretch the concept to the point that a person with more REC (who is considered healthier) is more resistant to a typical "make him suffocate" Power than Horace Wimp.

 

It takes longer/more to cover a Brick's face with water, a force wall, webbing or what have you? Bricks have bigger mouths and nostrils?

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Building Hero with Hero

 

It takes longer/more to cover a Brick's face with water' date=' a force wall, webbing or what have you? Bricks have bigger mouths and nostrils?[/quote']

 

Not the way I see it, but neither is that how I see gradual depletion of REC working.

If the REC removal is an ongoing thing, then the ability to recover effectively will be a fairly short window until REC is fully suppressed. Characters with higher recoveries will have a chance to get just a smidge more REC out of the oxygen already in their system if the attack happens close to Segment 12 or they go limp (drop all action and take a REC, doesn't work if there is also damaging effect like a choke going on).

I generally consider the "Everyman" SFX of Recovery to be cardiovascular health, FWIW

 

Edit/Addendum:

How about a variation on the "Does Body" Advantage to shift the "Body damage" on attacks that don't normally do body into damaging other characteristics?

So a choke is a NND, Does Recovery Damage

A Lovecraftian horror could have a naked "Does Ego damage" advantage on it's Presence Attacks

Gotta think this through... this has potential...

[Maur]

Re: Building Hero with Hero

 

And if I was the GM I'd not allow the hex and those hexes surrounding it to instantly burst into flame (unless they were filled with something particularly volatile) - it would take some while to build up, just as you could start a fire with a Zippo - it is unlikely to threaten anyone immediately, and once it has built to those levels it is beyond your control anyway (baring another power). It also relies on there being flammable material about, so it remains largely within the control of the GM how effective it is. In terms of a Hero combat, such a power would be of generally extremely limited utility. What you'd not be getting is a free 1 hex radius 2d6 RKA.

 

Basically he's getting what he paid for: not that much in this case.

 

Last time I checked, a fire that was 6 METERS (nearly 20 FEET) across was not exactly a little zippo flame... At that size we're talking about a fire releasing 10MW of heat at temperatures above 500F (assuming nothing more flammable than wood). That's enough heat energy to cause about 50 lbs of wood to spontaneously combust (the entire thing all at once) in just a few minutes (212 seconds). But, since it only needs to heat up the surface to that point, it would easily ignite the walls meters away in just a few seconds with that much heat output. Which means even more heat being released which spreads the fire... Pretty fast as long as it can keep finding air to supply it as it goes.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Building Hero with Hero

 

Sean,

 

Try looking at it this way...

 

Choke hold is a special maneuver that is targeting a known disadvantage* that all (normal) humans are known to have.

 

* needs to breath air

 

The ONLY hole in the rules I see right now is that a non-powered character without Martial Arts can't 'choke' another character in combat. They can only do it to an already unconscious (knocked out) character.

 

This looks easy enough to fix.

New Free optional maneuver - Neck Grab

If using Hit Locations allow the grabbing character to take a called shot to the Head (-8). Make it an activate roll if not using Hit Locations. If he succeeds he can deny the target the ability to breath until the grab is broken. No other damage is dealt (unlike the MA Choke Hold). The target spends a minimum of 1 END per phase for breathing plus any END used in attempting to escape the grab. Once he's out of END he starts burning STUN. Once he's out of STUN he starts to take BODY.

 

That is precicely what I'm advocating: a neck grab can choke anyone who needs to breathe, and that would include a martial choke.

 

One point on martial choke, given the damage I assume* this in fact acts by cutting blood flow to the brain by clamping down on the jugular vein. The jugular is protected by bands of muscle in the neck, but if you put a hold on correctly you use your forearms to roll the muscle back and you can pretty much pinch off the blood supply completely. Not only will this render your opponent unconscious in seconds it will kill them or give them brain damage almost as fast. It doesn't do it by suffocation directly, i.e. by preventing the lungs from taking in air, but it is an effect of oxygen starvation to the brain. Personally I think the choke hold simulates this pretty well (if you use coup de grace to do the kill effect if you keep the hold on), but I wouldn't call it a choke. Semantics but you've known me long enough that you know I tend to be semantic

 

Once we have the 'neck grab/face smother cuts off your air and you start to suffocation' rule in place I'd like to see a 'power' version of the same thing. I'd say 20 points ranged constant suffocation**, costs END. No STR v STR needed, defence is not needing to breathe.

 

 

*I assume in my games - I don't actually think this was necessarily what was intended in the rules.

 

**i.e triggers the suffocation/drowning rules

[Sean Waters]

Re: Building Hero with Hero

 

The defense to Suffocation (other than Life Support) is having more END.

Suffocation by itself does not do STUN or BODY.

It's only when the character is out of END that the other effects begin.

 

REC is something that characters who need to breath only get when they CAN breath. It's a default genre condition of modeling human(oid?) characters.

 

It is, but I don't think it should be.

 

For instance, one of the things that can model stun damage is pain.

 

If I'm punched in the arm and take 10 stun and, at the same moment I'm suffocated then I lose 2 END per turn and then 2 stun per turn until I'm unconscious. Even for a 10 CHAR normal that is 20 turns, or 4 minutes.

 

Why should the pain in my arm not abate in that time? Why, in other words, am I not taking recoveries of Stun from non-suffocation sources?

 

When you can not breathe the body starts to use oxygen in the blood up and then probably as much anaerobic respiration as it can manage causing lactic acid build up in the muscles and eventually you pass out and die.

 

Suffocation causes the body to use its own stored resources up fast. The effect of that is there is less energy to power your muscles (END) but also that toxins rapidly build in you blood making you less responsive (STUN) and eventually your own body's processeses kill you as they try to use things that are not there (Body), so whilst it is true to say that suffocation does not cause stun and body, that is the consequence. Moreover I would argue that someone who has been holding their breath for a minute is probably slightly more prone to unconsciousness if they take damage than someone who has not. That is just a personal opinion, but not an unrealistic conclusion and it leads to the conslusion that their stun total has already started falling.

 

In addition people unable to get oxygen very often have a lot of trouble thinking and very often panic. We do not model this with suffocation, but could if we wanted. There is no reason that suffocation should not cause INT and maybe PRE loss too.

[SteveZilla]

Re: Building Hero with Hero

 

Edit/Addendum:

How about a variation on the "Does Body" Advantage to shift the "Body damage" on attacks that don't normally do body into damaging other characteristics?

So a choke is a NND, Does Recovery Damage

A Lovecraftian horror could have a naked "Does Ego damage" advantage on it's Presence Attacks

Gotta think this through... this has potential...

 

It does at that. Then you could build The Ugly Stick: NND, Does COM Damage.

[SteveZilla]

Re: Building Hero with Hero

 

Once we have the 'neck grab/face smother cuts off your air and you start to suffocation' rule in place I'd like to see a 'power' version of the same thing. I'd say 20 points ranged constant suffocation**, costs END. No STR v STR needed, defence is not needing to breathe.

 

*I assume in my games - I don't actually think this was necessarily what was intended in the rules.

 

**i.e triggers the suffocation/drowning rules

 

I think any kind of choke/suffocation power needs to have a way for the target to escape the attack.

 

Oh, I'd take that 20 pt Suffocation Power and link it to a Mental Entangle for a real nasty attack.

[SteveZilla]

Re: Building Hero with Hero

 

For instance, one of the things that can model stun damage is pain.

 

If I'm punched in the arm and take 10 stun and, at the same moment I'm suffocated then I lose 2 END per turn and then 2 stun per turn until I'm unconscious. Even for a 10 CHAR normal that is 20 turns, or 4 minutes.

 

Why should the pain in my arm not abate in that time? Why, in other words, am I not taking recoveries of Stun from non-suffocation sources?

 

Perhaps if you look at it this way. Inflicting pain causes Stun Damage, but how? Inflicting pain causes a shock to your system, and it's the shock that causes your Stun to drop. It takes longer for your system to recover from the shock than it takes for the initial pain to wear off.

 

Or we can admit it's a game mechanic design for simplicity of bookkeeping.