Free Strike

[Psylint]

I was wondering how to combat the problem of high speed hand to hand characters coming in and out of range with lower speed hand to hand characters, such that the lower speed character rarely gets a strike in.

 

My proposed solutions:

 

Multiple Free Strikes: +xd6 Hand Attack, Trigger: Whenever a target moves from melee range as a result of the target's action. Takes no time, resets automagically. +1. Hand to Hand Attack -1/2.

 

Singular Free Strike: +xd6 Hand Attack, Trigger: Whenever a target moves from melee range as a result of the target's action. Takes no time, 0 phase action to reset. +3/4. Hand Attack -1/2.

 

 

The basic idea is that if someone in melee range flees melee range, the character gets a free strike at their back, but if such a person is removed by some outside agency: e.g. as a result of knockback, or being teleported away, etc. the free strike would not result.

 

Any thoughts, critiques, or criticisms appreciated.

[CoreBrute]

Re: Free Strike

 

So it's like the Rogue's sneak attack in Dnd?

It's written up somewhere..

 

Any way, what's the difference between the two examples you've given?

[Psylint]

Re: Free Strike

 

I'm not familiar with DnD Rogues, sorry.

 

The difference between the two versions is the first provides unlimited Free Strikes, where as the second only allows one until the character's next phase. To illustrate.

 

Brick, the brick, is surrounded by 6 ninja from "Bad Ninja Group, Inc." Brick is Speed 2, Dex 15, Running 6", the ninja are Speed 4, Dex 20, Running 14". Without any Free Strike power, the Ninja could attack Brick in hand to hand on Phase 3, and then half move 7" out of melee range on Phase 6 before Brick could act (and attack from range with shuriken or what have you). Similarly they could half move 7" back into melee range and make melee attacks on Phase 9, and flee on Phase 12. So long as the ninja's half move was greater than the target's full move, the target, essentially, can never engage the ninja in melee.

 

If Brick took "Multiple Free Strikes", however, when the ninja fled on Phase 6, Brick would get a free strike on all six ninja as they fled, and then would be able to use his normal Phase 6 actions.

 

If Brick took "Singular Free Strike" Brick would only be able to Free strike 1 ninja as they fled on Phase 6. He could then reset the trigger as a 0 phase action on his Phase 6.

 

The difference is whether the character should be able to make a free strike upon each and every target that leaves melee range, or only the first one.

[Certified]

Re: Free Strike

 

I've used this style of Trigger before. This style of Trigger also allows for a kind of ranged Damage Shield if they have some way of throwing an attack. The trigger being Whenever Taking Damage or Whenever Attacked. These can be tricky though and tend to be less powerful than say a Damage Shield of the same point value if you use an automatically resetting trigger.

[Bloodstone]

Re: Free Strike

 

I was wondering how to combat the problem of high speed hand to hand characters coming in and out of range with lower speed hand to hand characters' date=' such that the lower speed character rarely gets a strike in.[/quote']

 

Sounds like you want an Attack Of Opportunity mechanic.

 

First off, what's the root of the problem?

 

Are you letting characters move after they make an attack? (not book legal except with special maneuvers)

 

Is everyone simply using Move By/Passing Strike?

 

Or is there a serious disparity in the SPDs of the respective combatants?

 

Are people holding their actions?

[Trebuchet]

Re: Free Strike

 

I'm not familiar with DnD Rogues, sorry.

 

The difference between the two versions is the first provides unlimited Free Strikes, where as the second only allows one until the character's next phase. To illustrate.

 

Brick, the brick, is surrounded by 6 ninja from "Bad Ninja Group, Inc." Brick is Speed 2, Dex 15, Running 6", the ninja are Speed 4, Dex 20, Running 14". Without any Free Strike power, the Ninja could attack Brick in hand to hand on Phase 3, and then half move 7" out of melee range on Phase 6 before Brick could act (and attack from range with shuriken or what have you). Similarly they could half move 7" back into melee range and make melee attacks on Phase 9, and flee on Phase 12. So long as the ninja's half move was greater than the target's full move, the target, essentially, can never engage the ninja in melee.

 

If Brick took "Multiple Free Strikes", however, when the ninja fled on Phase 6, Brick would get a free strike on all six ninja as they fled, and then would be able to use his normal Phase 6 actions.

 

If Brick took "Singular Free Strike" Brick would only be able to Free strike 1 ninja as they fled on Phase 6. He could then reset the trigger as a 0 phase action on his Phase 6.

 

The difference is whether the character should be able to make a free strike upon each and every target that leaves melee range, or only the first one.

I'd want to know more about the brick in question. If he's that slow, what sfx would let him get in automatic attacks against six attackers (which few high speed characters can do)? Why can't he compensate by Holding, by doing a Move Through with Pushed movement, or buying more SPD and/or Running? Why not use a Ranged attack or buy an AoE with Personal Immunity?

 

Please don't take this the wrong way, but my feeling is that adding Powers simply to compensate for perceived combat weaknesses instead of working within the game to overcome those weaknesses is metagaming.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Free Strike

 

I was wondering how to combat the problem of high speed hand to hand characters coming in and out of range with lower speed hand to hand characters' date=' such that the lower speed character rarely gets a strike in. [/quote']

 

You'd have to get a speed variance of 3-4 times higher on the high SPD character.

 

To get in/out of range like that and not have a time to get attacked back they're making Full Move In, Attack, Full Move Out - that's 3 Phases of action. Or on the low end Half Move/Attack, Full Move Out. That's 2 Phases of action that the low Speed Character never goes on. Possibly but you'd have to have SPDs of 2-3 vs 8+ to have it be consistent.

 

While the Mechanic is certainly useful for a "Death Zone" type where they always control the area in their strike range - it's a poor solution to a problem you seem to be expressing.

 

Or, with your Brick/Ninja example - the Ninja have paid for the ability to get out of the Brick's range quickly. In which case you're solution is interesting, but seems like a Meta Solution to a game balance problem. Why not just buy more inches of Running?

[Psylint]

Re: Free Strike

 

I think of it as more an "attack of opportunity." Like when a Defensive Lineman, fully engaged with his blocking assignment, can nevertheless throw out an arm to arm tackle an on-rushing running back. I don't want extra speed, movement or what have you for the character, but I wanted a way to make rushing past him, even if he was fully engaged with another, dangerous.

 

With the advantage cost for the trigger, the DC's involved are roughly half strength.

 

Perhaps it is a more "Meta Solution", and I appreciate that being pointed out, just as I do when I get called out for being a munchkin.

 

I think ghost-angel actually indicated the real thing I was trying to accomplish, that is to say providing the character with a zone of control in their immediate vicinity even if engaged with another combatant.

 

Now the question is, would you allow it? I'm very much of two minds about it. On the one hand, it does seem to be a good way to accomplish the goal I set out. On the other, it potentially, greatly increases the number of "attack phases."

 

Thanks for the feedback.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Free Strike

 

I'd allow it, but yeah I think it works better as a "I have total control of my arms reach" type effect than trying to justify some kind of AOO Effect.

 

Zone Of Control becomes a schtick.

 

AoO becomes a way around getting tooled.

 

(and with any good schtick I'd except to see other abilities on the character sheet the represent this, like Defensive Maneuver, DCV Skill Levels, maybe some Combat Luck, etc)

[Trebuchet]

Re: Free Strike

 

I think of it as more an "attack of opportunity." Like when a Defensive Lineman, fully engaged with his blocking assignment, can nevertheless throw out an arm to arm tackle an on-rushing running back. I don't want extra speed, movement or what have you for the character, but I wanted a way to make rushing past him, even if he was fully engaged with another, dangerous.

 

With the advantage cost for the trigger, the DC's involved are roughly half strength.

 

Perhaps it is a more "Meta Solution", and I appreciate that being pointed out, just as I do when I get called out for being a munchkin.

 

I think ghost-angel actually indicated the real thing I was trying to accomplish, that is to say providing the character with a zone of control in their immediate vicinity even if engaged with another combatant.

 

Now the question is, would you allow it? I'm very much of two minds about it. On the one hand, it does seem to be a good way to accomplish the goal I set out. On the other, it potentially, greatly increases the number of "attack phases."

 

Thanks for the feedback.

Why not put on some sort of Limitation that prevents the character from hitting both his original assailant and the new "target(s) of opportunity" in the same Phase? Perhaps it could be a variant of Lockout? That way he "aborts" to attacking only the new target(s)s and has a Power that penalizes Move By/ Move Through/Passing Strike. And of course if the bad guy stays within 6" then the hero can deal with him the old fashioned way.

[Ed Coll]

Re: Free Strike

 

Expensive way: buy Continuous and Damage Shield as naked Advantages on your STR (as naked Advantages, you don't have to use them all the time).

 

Cheap way: Hold your phase--as soon as the ninja moves in, punch him. If you buy Autofire, 2 shots (or 3 or 4 if kicking fits the character concept), as a naked Advantage on your STR, you can hit the ninja multiple times. NB: this does not allow hitting all the ninjas that attack, as Continuous & Damage Shield do.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Free Strike

 

Wait... maybe I don't understand the problem. If the concept is to 'reach out and hit him so fast he isn't really in range,' they why don't you ust buy an inch of stretching? Or purchase it as a ranged attack with limited range (no range, -1/2, can be 'one inch') or a Hand Attack with Stretching, 1".

 

What am I not understanding where either of those are valid solutions?

[Badger]

Re: Free Strike

 

I generally specialize in the speedy-flying HTH guy, and I dont get this opportunity. I'd have to say if the brick is that slow it is his fault for going min/max on the STR.

 

But, if that was the case, there is a good chance I might not be able to do anything but be a general nuisance or buy time for teammates to handle their opponents and then jump into help, and the like. (assuming similar point total of course) Because, when a fly hits a brick wall, the brick wall doesnt feel it.

[mirage]

Re: Free Strike

 

You'd have to get a speed variance of 3-4 times higher on the high SPD character.

 

To get in/out of range like that and not have a time to get attacked back they're making Full Move In, Attack, Full Move Out - that's 3 Phases of action. Or on the low end Half Move/Attack, Full Move Out. That's 2 Phases of action that the low Speed Character never goes on. Possibly but you'd have to have SPDs of 2-3 vs 8+ to have it be consistent.

 

While the Mechanic is certainly useful for a "Death Zone" type where they always control the area in their strike range - it's a poor solution to a problem you seem to be expressing.

 

Or, with your Brick/Ninja example - the Ninja have paid for the ability to get out of the Brick's range quickly. In which case you're solution is interesting, but seems like a Meta Solution to a game balance problem. Why not just buy more inches of Running?

 

How about just buy stretching for the fast character? The SFX being moves over, punches target or does whatever then runs back, with the limitation, character must be able to reach target with movement powers. I think they did something similar to this in the Ultimate Speedster.

[Mr. R]

Re: Free Strike

 

Brick, the brick, is surrounded by 6 ninja from "Bad Ninja Group, Inc." Brick is Speed 2, Dex 15, Running 6", the ninja are Speed 4, Dex 20, Running 14".

 

Ok lets look at some balance here:

 

Brick Dex 15 (15 points) Spd 2 (-5 points) Run 6" Total 10 pts

Ninja Dex 20 (30 points) Spd 4 (10 points) Run 14" (16 points) Total 56 pts

 

So what else doe the brick have for those 46 points? Defenses? Can he even be hurt? ie 35 pd resist means ninja pointy stick bounce.

 

HTH skill levels?

 

Brick tricks? Foot stomp (EB AoE Per Imm No Range) as a held can work wonders?

 

Ans like someone said Pick up a Lamp-post and use it as a long bat.

 

Or take a scene from Superman 2 Manhole cover frisbee.

 

A little more info would be nice.

 

Otherwise you are describing Rogue vs Ninja. They're not expected to take her down, just keep her busy.

[Badger]

Re: Free Strike

 

I think of it as more an "attack of opportunity." Like when a Defensive Lineman, fully engaged with his blocking assignment, can nevertheless throw out an arm to arm tackle an on-rushing running back. I don't want extra speed, movement or what have you for the character, but I wanted a way to make rushing past him, even if he was fully engaged with another, dangerous.

 

With the advantage cost for the trigger, the DC's involved are roughly half strength.

 

Perhaps it is a more "Meta Solution", and I appreciate that being pointed out, just as I do when I get called out for being a munchkin.

 

I think ghost-angel actually indicated the real thing I was trying to accomplish, that is to say providing the character with a zone of control in their immediate vicinity even if engaged with another combatant.

 

Now the question is, would you allow it? I'm very much of two minds about it. On the one hand, it does seem to be a good way to accomplish the goal I set out. On the other, it potentially, greatly increases the number of "attack phases."

 

Thanks for the feedback.

 

It is kind of interesting. (I never thought of the linemen analogy in a HERO setting, this may give me an idea to create a mutated brick with a football background and have a martial art based off of it. ) But, at least on a 1-on-1 fight unless the SPD differential is ridiculous. That getting used to holding an action until the attack might be the most effective thing. (which is easier said than done for me as I do tend to focus more on the speed/agility character than the brick character)

[ghost-angel]

Re: Free Strike

 

How about just buy stretching for the fast character? The SFX being moves over' date=' punches target or does whatever then runs back, with the limitation, character must be able to reach target with movement powers. I think they did something similar to this in the Ultimate Speedster.[/quote']

 

Mostly because in the examples given, the situation trying to be overcome, they Can't actually reach the faster character.

 

If they could a simple Move Through with Skill Levels would be more effective and cheaper.

 

It's an attempt at reasoning why a strong HtH fighter, who may not be a fast mover (in the distance covered aspect) but should still be able to control their immediate zone of influence. A Triggered Attack is a good possible solution. As is Damage Shield. Stretching leaves the realm a little by bringing in movement again. Extra SPD "Only To Attack" would also be a viable trick.

[Psylint]

Re: Free Strike

 

Thanks for all the replies, and apologies for the example, it was poorly thought out.

 

I think I'm going to keep it, though with perhaps some modifications:

 

For linemen and other potentially low speed or Dex characters. I'll use:

 

Diving Tackle:

 

xd6 Hand Attack, Trigger, takes no time, resets as a zero phase action +3/4, "target enters or flees melee range" Does Knockdown, not Knockback -0, Side Effects always occur -1/2 (character falls prone)

 

Speed of the Mongoose:

 

xd6 HKA, Trigger, takes no time, resets automatically, "whenever target leaves melee range" Representing a skilled fencer's ability to quickly lunge out and back for targets of opportunity.

[TheInexplicable]

Re: Free Strike

 

Here is how I would recommend you build what you are looking for:

 

2d6 Hand Attack, AoE Hex x2 radius (2" radius) +3/4, Selective +1/4, Continuous +1, Invisible Power Effects fully invisible SFX only +1/2, Reduced End 0 END +1/2, HtH attack -1/2, Limited: Only affects target upon leaving area -1/2 = 40 AP, 20 RC

 

This allows you to set up your "attack zone" and control who you hit with it and who you don't. The Invisible Power Effects is there so that there is no obvious sign that your brick has this attack zone around him until he actually socks someone with the power, it is completely invisible until he uses it and at that time the source and effect can be seen (there isn't a perceivable constant field effect of some sort around him at all times. With this construct you can reach out and strike anyone who is moving out of the area (your hex or an adjacent hex) that you want to.

 

The "Only affects target upon leaving area -1/2" looks kind of goofy but normally with a continuous AoE like this the attack opportunity would take place upon the target entering the field, not leaving it. Just switching it from 'on entering' to 'on leaving' the area I would assign as a +0, but normally a continuous AoE would also take effect on each of the owner's phases and you didn't say anything about wanting to be able to do that...so, removing that aspect of the continuous AoE portion I'd give a -1/2.

 

The reason that I would not build this as you have listed above using Trigger:

Brick is on the street walking down the sidewalk minding his own business.

On 12 -

Dex 20 Arch Nemesis steps around a corner with a handful of quick on their feet Mooks a block away and shouts a challenge at Brick and punctuates said threat with some random fire into the air. Mooks fire up their rocket powered rollerblades and pull out various chains and pipes and wait for the attack command from Arch Nemesis

Dex 15 Brick, knowing that the Mooks favorite tactic is to use move by and passing strike maneuvers, activates his "attack zone" power and shouts a challenge to the Mooks, takes a half phase for Defense Maneuver and declares a dodge with his remaining half action.

Dex 10 Civilians between Brick and his foes respond to the scary bad guys by running away from them. Brick proceeds to hit every man, woman, child, and dog that flees past him between now and Dex 15 on segment 6 (his next action and opportunity to turn off his power) with his 12d6 strikes killing or severely injuring them all.

On Arch Nemesis' next phase he takes advantage of the situation and declares a citizen's arrest of our crazy mass murdering Brick and gets himself a pardon on previous charges in return for getting such a dangerous individual off of the city streets.

 

Goofy example, but the point is that those triggers have no way to ID good guys from bad guys. At the minimum your teammates would be at risk of getting clobbered.

[Badger]

Re: Free Strike

 

Course, I do have to admit that the whole scenario does smell of wanting too much though. Given how cheap STR is compared to other attributes. It does seem to me that the nearly uncatchable speedster is kind of balancing out type of thing.

 

Not judging, but it just feels that way. And like I mentioned earlier I have a bias towards the SPD guys.

[Basil]

Re: Free Strike

 

...this may give me an idea to create a mutated brick with a football background and have a martial art based off of it. )...

 

Already done for you. Fourth Edition Ninja Hero, p. 17.

 

Nothing in Ult. Martial Artist, though.

[Psylint]

Re: Free Strike

 

Course, I do have to admit that the whole scenario does smell of wanting too much though. Given how cheap STR is compared to other attributes. It does seem to me that the nearly uncatchable speedster is kind of balancing out type of thing.

 

Not judging, but it just feels that way. And like I mentioned earlier I have a bias towards the SPD guys.

 

I agree it could get out of hand, which is why I threw up for comment. I'll revise, and subject it to the Mark 20 eyeball test.

 

Cheers