Failure To Stop Drill

[pjmfox2003]

Kinda new with the Hero ruleset, and I was looking in DC to see if I could find a Super Skill that represented the "Failure to Stop" drill (2 in the chest, 1 in the head). I found double tap, but no F2S. Any suggestions on how to build it as a Super Skill? Also, what would the "Extreme Shock" ammo fall under, frangible or something else?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Failure To Stop Drill

 

Autofire 3; AoE 1 Hex Accurate.

if you're ok with the actual locations hit being Special Effect.

 

If you want to actually hit the locations (i.e. do the modified damage for Targeting Location per the Hit Location Table)

Autofire 3; +6 Skill Levels (Only when using Autofire); +8 Penalty Skill Levels (Only For Hit Locations; Only when using Autofire).

And GM permission to target 2 different locations with one Autofire Attack.

[pjmfox2003]

Re: Failure To Stop Drill

 

I definitely want to use the damage modifiers for location, it seems more realistic. Thanks for the advise.

[DevilInSatin]

Re: Failure To Stop Drill

 

Call me confused ("Hi, Con Fuzed!") but I don't get what you think is the failure. You want a 3-shot A.F., OK, you can buy it.

 

BTW, I thought this thread would be about a scenario, where the PC's were supposed to stop a drill (fire, earthquake, ?????), but had failed to, and you were wondering where to take the campaign.

[Toadmaster]

Re: Failure To Stop Drill

 

Call me confused ("Hi, Con Fuzed!") but I don't get what you think is the failure. You want a 3-shot A.F., OK, you can buy it.

 

BTW, I thought this thread would be about a scenario, where the PC's were supposed to stop a drill (fire, earthquake, ?????), but had failed to, and you were wondering where to take the campaign.

 

 

In fire arms training 2 shots into center mass followed by a head shot is called a failure to stop or Mozambique drill. The idea is that if the target takes two rounds in the chest and keeps coming, they are probably wearing body armor, so a round in the head should work.

 

Good drill for possible undead as well.

 

 

PGMFOX, I wouldn't get too hung up on specifics, HERO makes some concessions to reality, as you fix one you will find 3 more. The game does work well for modern "realistic" settings but you do need to look the other way in a few areas. Something like a failure to stop drill is getting a bit specific to find a workable and satisfactory result.

 

This is not to say you shouldn't tweak, just don't get too hung up trying to tweak every little thing.

[pjmfox2003]

Re: Failure To Stop Drill

 

Thank you, Toadmaster, I couldn't have explained it better myself.

I guess I just saw all the cool super skills and felt that they had left something out, but you are right, I am over-thinking this and just need to KISS. Thanks again to everyone who posted.

[Rapier]

Re: Failure To Stop Drill

 

I'm not even sure it's a specific power. It's a set of circumstances.

 

I would imagine that said GunBunni would probably have Rapid Attack or a Naked AutoFire or some such thing.

 

He can simply pump three rounds in and he could even "walk" his aim from Torso to Head.

 

This could also be:

 

Phase 4: Put 2 in the chest.

Phase 6: Still running towards you.

Phase 8: Put 1 in the head.

 

Don't get so hung up on directly relating real life to an actual power construct. Figure out what you want to accomplish and build that. Heck, it might just be a Ranged Martial Art with some extra DCs!

[DevilInSatin]

Re: Failure To Stop Drill

 

Hm. I thought shooting at anything but Center of Mass™ was A Bad Thing™

 

I still don't get what's failing and what's drilling. :confused:

[ghost-angel]

Re: Failure To Stop Drill

 

Hm. I thought shooting at anything but Center of Mass™ was A Bad Thing™

 

I still don't get what's failing and what's drilling. :confused:

 

They train to shoot for center of mass because that presents the largest target, and is less likely to miss.

 

Failure-To-Stop-Drill (all one term) is a technique that they train when a suspect is shot in the center of mass and continues to approach the shooter.

 

The full training is to fire two rounds at the Center Of Mass, if this fails to stop the target then you fire one more shot at the Head.

 

It's assumed that if two shots to the chest did not stop the target then one more to the head will. Usually it's assumed the target could be wearing body armor.

 

This action is called a "Failure To Stop Drill"

The Drill is in the Training sense of the word.

[SuperJerry]

Re: Failure To Stop Drill

 

Hm. I thought shooting at anything but Center of Mass™ was A Bad Thing™

 

I still don't get what's failing and what's drilling. :confused:

 

 

 

By "Failure to stop" they mean your target has failed to stop after the first two shots to the torso so they train to automaticly shoot for the head after the 2nd shot.

[DevilInSatin]

Re: Failure To Stop Drill

 

They train to shoot for center of mass because that presents the largest target, and is less likely to miss.

 

Failure-To-Stop-Drill (all one term) is a technique that they train when a suspect is shot in the center of mass and continues to approach the shooter.

 

The full training is to fire two rounds at the Center Of Mass, if this fails to stop the target then you fire one more shot at the Head.

 

It's assumed that if two shots to the chest did not stop the target then one more to the head will. Usually it's assumed the target could be wearing body armor.

 

This action is called a "Failure To Stop Drill"

The Drill is in the Training sense of the word.

 

OK, I got it. It's a drill (like a fire drill) to learn how to kill 'em reeeelly dead.

 

But you aren't trainling how to fail to stop, so the name's confusing.

 

It needs another name. "Kill 'em Deader Drill"?

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Failure To Stop Drill

 

With the further discussions, I think if you wanted to do it as a Superskill the best approach would to build it as a Naked Trigger for the attack with enough built-in PSL's to make it a headshot and have the triggering condition be "if target remains standing after a double tap in the chest.

 

so, basically...

+2 w/rapid attack

+3 Targeting levels

lets you put 2 in the chest everytime

 

Then build the Trigger along with +5 more targeting levels that are only used with the trigger and voila!

[Korvar]

Re: Failure To Stop Drill

 

Delay your phase until the segment before you next phase.

 

Double tap the chest.

 

If opponent doesn't fall, on your next phase, shoot the head.

[Guest Admiral C]

Re: Failure To Stop Drill

 

This could also be:

 

Phase 4: Put 2 in the chest.

Phase 6: Still running towards you.

Phase 8: Put 1 in the head.

 

This is how I would model it. Any other way of condensing it down to one half phase action would move it too far into "exceptional skill" territory and away from being a trained tactic.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Failure To Stop Drill

 

This is how I would model it. Any other way of condensing it down to one half phase action would move it too far into "exceptional skill" territory and away from being a trained tactic.

 

While I don't disagree with this, as I find it mostly true in practice.

 

It depends entirely on how you envision Combat Flow in HERO.

 

If we're assuming "real people" of SPD 2 or 3, then a Phase could be extrapolated as to be either 6 seconds (SPD 2) or 4 seconds (SPD 3) long. Alternately, moving to an Autofire NA also means a SPD2 Person can be trained in this tactic and still execute it.

 

It's only a 1/2 Phase Long by a Game Organized So We Can Play It standpoint.

 

Using three Phases could end up looking like this, with each person starting about 15 meters apart:

Police: Tap 1 to chest

Target: Rushes forward

Police: Tap 2 to chest

Target: 1/2 Move and Attack

Police: . . .!

 

where real life probably looks more like this:

Target Rushes Foward; Police: Failure To Stop Drill

[Guest Admiral C]

Re: Failure To Stop Drill

 

While I don't disagree with this, as I find it mostly true in practice.

 

It depends entirely on how you envision Combat Flow in HERO.

 

If we're assuming "real people" of SPD 2 or 3, then a Phase could be extrapolated as to be either 6 seconds (SPD 2) or 4 seconds (SPD 3) long. Alternately, moving to an Autofire NA also means a SPD2 Person can be trained in this tactic and still execute it.

 

It's only a 1/2 Phase Long by a Game Organized So We Can Play It standpoint.

 

Using three Phases could end up looking like this, with each person starting about 15 meters apart:

Police: Tap 1 to chest

Target: Rushes forward

Police: Tap 2 to chest

Target: 1/2 Move and Attack

Police: . . .!

 

where real life probably looks more like this:

Target Rushes Foward; Police: Failure To Stop Drill

 

I would see this as complete action as a maneuver in GURPS. In HERO I would model it as a held action and with Rapid Attack, two shots to center mass. The next immediate phase is the head shot. How it looks would be the first two shots were probably held until the suspect acted, no point in telling someone to stop if they a) aren't moving or haven't had to a chance to stop whatever you telling them to do like drop a gun. So the shooter fires during or after the suspect acts.

 

What we are not taking into account is whether or not the suspect us stunned. Taking two shots center mass with say mediocre stats and no resistant defenses will stop the suspect giving time for the shooter to take his head shot.

 

Of course I have no problem with highly trained shooters have "super skills" to do this. I just don't see all law enforcement officers being able to pull it off. I know one police officer who told me they don't even attempt this maneuver because if a head shot misses that bullet has to go somewhere and in apartment complex, store, or even the suburbs that bullet has the chance of hurting someone or even killing them.

 

To me modeling it in one phase would be better if they shooter just had Rapid Attack and head shots where just a special effect. Otherwise too many people would have excessive PSLs, or miss a lot.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Failure To Stop Drill

 

Looks like a two phase action to me. If the entire point of it is to shoot the guy in the head, they would cut to the chase and shoot him in the head...but that's not the point. The point is to shoot him in the head if and only if he doesn't go down from two in the chest. Two phases gives the character the time to make that assessment.

 

I would build this as a two shot Autofire attack, taken in the first phase as a single action. For the post-assessment head-shot, I would give PSLs vs Hit Location, limited so that they only apply in the phase after the Autofire attack, and only against the same target.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Failure To Stop Drill

 

...

For the post-assessment head-shot, I would give PSLs vs Hit Location, limited so that they only apply in the phase after the Autofire attack, and only against the same target.

 

I think this is a key point.

 

The idea is that the head shot is only possible if the first two shots actually hit the target.

 

If they do, the character has already determined 'the range' of the target's body and only has to make very minor adjustments to his/her aim to hit to the head.

[Guest Admiral C]

Re: Failure To Stop Drill

 

I think this is a key point.

 

The idea is that the head shot is only possible if the first two shots actually hit the target.

 

If they do, the character has already determined 'the range' of the target's body and only has to make very minor adjustments to his/her aim to hit to the head.

 

Good point.

[DevilInSatin]

Re: Failure To Stop Drill

 

With the further discussions, I think if you wanted to do it as a Superskill the best approach would to build it as a Naked Trigger for the attack with enough built-in PSL's to make it a headshot and have the triggering condition be "if target remains standing after a double tap in the chest.

 

so, basically...

+2 w/rapid attack

+3 Targeting levels

lets you put 2 in the chest everytime

Is this the double tap, or the third shot??

[ghost-angel]

Re: Failure To Stop Drill

 

Looks like a two phase action to me. If the entire point of it is to shoot the guy in the head, they would cut to the chase and shoot him in the head...but that's not the point. The point is to shoot him in the head if and only if he doesn't go down from two in the chest. Two phases gives the character the time to make that assessment.

 

I would build this as a two shot Autofire attack, taken in the first phase as a single action. For the post-assessment head-shot, I would give PSLs vs Hit Location, limited so that they only apply in the phase after the Autofire attack, and only against the same target.

 

I think this is a key point.

 

The idea is that the head shot is only possible if the first two shots actually hit the target.

 

If they do, the character has already determined 'the range' of the target's body and only has to make very minor adjustments to his/her aim to hit to the head.

 

This is the key here. I ammend my initial build in deference to this being a better model of what's going on. Rep to you sirs.

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

Re: Failure To Stop Drill

 

Kinda new with the Hero ruleset' date=' and I was looking in DC to see if I could find a Super Skill that represented the "Failure to Stop" drill (2 in the chest, 1 in the head). I found double tap, but no F2S. Any suggestions on how to build it as a Super Skill? Also, what would the "Extreme Shock" ammo fall under, frangible or something else?[/quote']

 

Honestly, isn't the head-shot slower, aimed, and deliberate? Sounds like a double tap, then an aimed headshot the next phase.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Failure To Stop Drill

 

Is this the double tap' date=' or the third shot?? [/quote']

The quoted part was the double tap skills.

 

to turn a double tap into a FTSD, I was suggesting adding a Naked Advantage Resetting Trigger for the attack, with the Trigger condition being "If target fails to drop from Double Tap", with +5 linked Targeting PSL's (Bringing the total to +8) to always aim this "Free Attack" at the head.

 

Not cheap, but simulates the "trained 'til this was an automatic response" nature implied in the word "drill" by making the head shot a 0 phase followup Triggered action.

[pjmfox2003]

Re: Failure To Stop Drill

 

Honestly' date=' isn't the head-shot slower, aimed, and deliberate? Sounds like a double tap, then an aimed headshot the next phase.[/quote']

The way I have seen and heard of it (ala "Rainbow Six" the book), it is all reflexive. It is used with the 5.56 and subguns because of their notoriety for not being "one-shot stoppers". The origins of the drill come from the aggressor not stopping from center-of-mass shots, but it has evolved into a sort of triple-tap. If ya can't tell, I like a lot of realism in my DC's. Good ideas all, though.

[DevilInSatin]

Re: Failure To Stop Drill

 

The quoted part was the double tap skills.

 

to turn a double tap into a FTSD, I was suggesting adding a Naked Advantage Resetting Trigger for the attack, with the Trigger condition being "If target fails to drop from Double Tap", with +5 linked Targeting PSL's (Bringing the total to +8) to always aim this "Free Attack" at the head.

 

Not cheap, but simulates the "trained 'til this was an automatic response" nature implied in the word "drill" by making the head shot a 0 phase followup Triggered action.

 

Thanks for explaining.