Buying the Aid Power

[Mr. Gridlock]

Is there something I'm missing about Aid? It seems like a pointless power to me.

 

17 Lunar Strength: Aid STR 3d6 (30 Active Points); Self Only (-1/2), Only at Night (-1/4)

 

vs.

 

14 Lunar Strength: +20 STR (20 Active Points); Only at Night (-1/4) (Modifiers affect Base Characteristic)

 

Not only do you get the Figured Characteristics from the latter power, but you get a reliable boost in STR.

 

With Aid, you not only spend more points, but on average you'd get 11 STR, with no Figured Characteristics. And if you didn't want the Figured Characteristics, the latter power would only cost you 7 points.

 

I have the same feeling about the Kiai power as written in UMA. Aid (PRE) vs. a straight +PRE.

 

16 Kiai: +20 PRE, Invisible Power Effects (Fully Invisible; +1) (40 Active Points); Increased Endurance Cost (x3 END; -1), Costs Endurance (-1/2) [12 END]

 

vs.

 

27 Kiai: Aid PRE 4d6, Invisible Power Effects (Fully Invisible; +1) (80 Active Points); Increased Endurance Cost (x3 END; -1), Costs Endurance (-1/2), Self Only (-1/2) [24 END]

 

The Aid fades at a known rate. The STR in the Lunar Strength example would last until day break.

 

So, is there something I'm not understanding about Self Only uses of Aid? Obviously Aiding someone else is a different matter.

[mmshah]

Re: Buying the Aid Power

 

Its usually not cost effective if you aiding 1 stat, self only. You could try succor thats only 5 Ap per die, but costs end.

 

Look at Self Only Aid like this it costs 7 points per die, which can add a max of 6 points. You're spending 7 to get 6 and limitations will just make it worse as compared to buying it outright since you already took self only limitation on Aid futher limitations will give a poorer return on investment versus limitations directly on a stat which will save more points.

 

Thats why you have to use Aid for others or multiple stats otherwise its just pointlless.

[Mr. Gridlock]

Re: Buying the Aid Power

 

Its usually not cost effective if you aiding 1 stat' date=' self only. You could try succor thats only 5 Ap per die, but costs end.[/quote']

 

Okay, so now you have:

 

8 Kiai: Succor PRE 4d6 (20 Active Points); Increased Endurance Cost (x3 END; -1), Self Only (-1/2)

 

vs.

 

8 Kiai: +20 PRE (20 Active Points); Increased Endurance Cost (x3 END; -1), Costs Endurance (-1/2)

 

Same cost and same END. The only difference now is that you have the range for the Succor (4-24) vs. the reliable +20 for the latter build. Comes down to flavor?

[mmshah]

Re: Buying the Aid Power

 

Ya for PRE that raw +20 would be better on average then 4d6. For Succor to STR it would be a little closer since it already costs END you wouldn't be able to save the extra -1/2 on the raw stat. Using your example:

 

8 Lunar Str: Succor STR 4d6 (20 Active Points); Increased Endurance Cost (x3 END; -1), Self Only (-1/2)

 

vs.

 

10 Lunar Str: +20 STR (20 Active Points); Increased Endurance Cost (x3 END; -1)

 

8 for 14 or 10 for 20, the 10 for 20 for the raw stat is still better on average but its closer. Opps forgot Succor wouldn't give any figured characterstics which really sucks for STR as you get so much, the raw stat would be way better. +4 PD, +10 Stun, + 4 Rec.

[Diamond Spear]

Re: Buying the Aid Power

 

I think the problem with the discussion is that it is attempting to prove that there are better ways to buy characteristics than using Aid (true) and ignoring the fact that Aid is sometimes the best way to simulate a power. For instance, a drug that can be taken to temporarally increase a statistic is best simulated with Aid, even if it isn’t the most cost efficient way to build the power.

[Mr. Gridlock]

Re: Buying the Aid Power

 

The tone of my post was a question, not a statement. I've seen multiple ways of writing up different powers (some with Aid, some with direct characteristic buys) and was wondering if there was something I wasn't understanding.

[Diamond Spear]

Re: Buying the Aid Power

 

The tone of my post was a question' date=' not a statement. I've seen multiple ways of writing up different powers (some with Aid, some with direct characteristic buys) and was wondering if there was something I wasn't understanding.[/quote']

 

You seem to understand it just fine. I guess I just thought, from the way your post was worded, that you were wondering why they included Aid as a power when it seemed a less efficient way of doing things than alternate powers. If I misunderstood, I apologize.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Buying the Aid Power

 

I think the problem with the discussion is that it is attempting to prove that there are better ways to buy characteristics than using Aid (true) and ignoring the fact that Aid is sometimes the best way to simulate a power. For instance' date=' a drug that can be taken to temporarally increase a statistic is best simulated with Aid, even if it isn’t the most cost efficient way to build the power.[/quote']

 

I dislike the theory that certain concepts should be less point-efficient than others. No one should have to play a sidekick because their concept isn't properly priced.

 

The problem here, at least in my view, is that "self only" is much more limiting for Aid and Healing than the -1/2 applied by the books. Then we add "multiple characteristics" to make it more powerful (or overly powerful). Aid needs to be revisited as part of the switch to 6e.

 

By way of background, in 4e Aid was 5 points per d6, and included unlimited Healing. That made for some very overpowered structures. In my opinion, the changes in 5e overreacted to that issue, resulting in both Healing and Aid being excessively reduced in power.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Buying the Aid Power

 

All Adjustment Powers need a significant overhaul in my opinion. Aid is probably the largest reason for this, but Absorption and Transfer are also... wonky. Adjustment Powers make for some interesting and unique character concepts, but in their current incarnation there is no use for them unmodified, and they usually must be heavily modified. I believe every Power should be useful in a standard, unmodified form as a default, not a starting point that must be modified.

 

Anyways, I'm ranting...

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Buying the Aid Power

 

All Adjustment Powers need a significant overhaul in my opinion. Aid is probably the largest reason for this' date=' but Absorption and Transfer are also... wonky. Adjustment Powers make for some interesting and unique character concepts, but in their current incarnation there is no use for them unmodified, and they usually must be heavily modified. I believe every Power should be useful in a standard, unmodified form as a default, not a starting point that [i']must[/i] be modified.

 

Anyways, I'm ranting...

 

I'll agree with that. It is inefficient; I do agree with Diamond Spear in his interpretation of the OPs perceived attitude, and I think I grasp now what's going on. Yes: while there are 'more efficient' ways to do it, AID is often the easiest way to do it. It has a set Fade rate, costs END, etc.

 

However.

 

Nothing says you can't do this:

 

+30 STR, Only for 10 minutes (or something similar; it can't be Uncontrolled as it doesn't cost END, and if you make it cost END that makes it even stranger), Side Effects (user loses 10 STR for 1 hour after drug wears off), OIF Fragile (injector & vial), Charges (4 charges that recover under limited circumstances; must be resupplied in a lab).

 

And so on. It's trying to put together the proper sequence to grant a power that Aid/Succor already handle. Personally, I'd go with Succor/Red END 0/Uncontrolled to do this, but that's me.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Buying the Aid Power

 

I've always viewed Adjustment Powers like Aid as "For Others" - they break down horribly and irrevocably when applied as Self Only.

 

They are, however, nearly perfect for Boosters who increase others capabilities - and I think they are priced correctly for that effect as seen in years of play with them.

 

I find Aid (and similar) also very good for Cyberpunk Combat Drugs where the results are always a boost, but you don't know how much or how long.

[BNakagawa]

Re: Buying the Aid Power

 

You can put aid (with the proviso that you put the costs END lim on it) in an EC and people typically won't balk.

 

If you put stats in an EC, out come the torches and pitchforks.

[TheInexplicable]

Re: Buying the Aid Power

 

You can also put Aid into a multipower slot and advantage the fade rate up to 5/hour or so and have an extremely cheap way to boost your statistic(s) up...can also be extremely cheesy.

 

Inclusion in a power framework of some sort is about the only way that it makes sense to use a self only Aid though. If you are buying outside of a framework just buying the stat with some limitations will be easier and more cost effective.

[GMumford]

Re: Buying the Aid Power

 

Okay, so now you have:

 

8 Kiai: Succor PRE 4d6 (20 Active Points); Increased Endurance Cost (x3 END; -1), Self Only (-1/2)

 

vs.

 

8 Kiai: +20 PRE (20 Active Points); Increased Endurance Cost (x3 END; -1), Costs Endurance (-1/2)

 

Same cost and same END. The only difference now is that you have the range for the Succor (4-24) vs. the reliable +20 for the latter build. Comes down to flavor?

 

Another difference is Succor changes PRE making it more powerful without restrictions, while the +20 PRE option changes the nature of the characteristic so it can only be used as a power.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Buying the Aid Power

 

Another difference is Succor changes PRE making it more powerful without restrictions' date=' while the +20 PRE option changes the nature of the characteristic so it can only be used as a power.[/quote']

 

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Buying the Aid Power

 

 

I'll second that :confused:!

 

I think this mistaken idea stems from a recent comment from Steve L. regarding PRE with the Does Knockback Advantage. I believe the ruling was that to use it would require an Attack Action (unlike a normal PRE Attack) because it has direct combat effects.

 

Buying PRE as a Power is was not the key point.

Buying PRE with the Does Knockback Advantage was.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Buying the Aid Power

 

I think this mistaken idea stems from a recent comment from Steve L. regarding PRE with the Does Knockback Advantage. I believe the ruling was that to use it would require an Attack Action (unlike a normal PRE Attack) because it has direct combat effects.

 

Buying PRE as a Power is was not the key point.

Buying PRE with the Does Knockback Advantage was.

 

Ah. Okay. That makes sense then.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Buying the Aid Power

 

 

I'm with Prestidigitator; I think there may be a misunderstanding here. You can certainly purchase PRE, Only to Make PRE Attacks, or Only to Resist, but if the stat goes up, it goes up. It must specifically be noted otherwise if it is limited in some way.