House Rule: Only half of your defense stops body damage.

[1EyedJack]

I have been thinking about comic books where nearly invunerable characters get injuries like broke ribs. In standard champions in is nearly impossible to do body damage to characters with "S"'s on their chest, or really tough bricks like Hurcules who in, an old Avengers book wwas beaten nearly to death without "killing attacks" being used. The only way I can think of to simulate this in champions is only allow half of a characters defense stop body, while they would get all of it against stun. Any feed back or alternate ideas would be welcome.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: House Rule: Only half of your defense stops body damage.

 

It's definitely a big change to make that would have far reaching effects and is certainly the simplest to use.

 

However, regarding Hercules getting beat nearly to death I am curious to know who was doing the beating?

 

Is it possible that their attacks had one or more the following damage enhancers?

Armor Piercing

Penetrating

Find Weakness

 

Also, on the other side of the equation, is it possible that a significant portion of Herc's (as well as many bricks) defenses are not Persistent (like Combat Luck)?

 

Take a look at my version of Superman on 350 points. He has a 'base' 25 PD (before adding other non-persistent defense) and also has a HA with Armor Piercing of 12d6. He could potentially 'bloody' his doppelganger's nose in certain situations (especially if he was stunned or knocked out).

[Guest steamteck]

Re: House Rule: Only half of your defense stops body damage.

 

He was gotten drunk on drugged booze by a disguised Moonstone, knocked unconscious by Goliath ( the ex power man one) and beaten on by the Wrecking Crew while he was down.

[nexus]

Re: House Rule: Only half of your defense stops body damage.

 

One suggestion I've seen is to rule that for every X amount of Stun that gets through their Defenses the character takes 1 Body. X is generally 10 to 20 points depending on how lethal you want combat to be, some games gave Killing Attacks a lower threshold.

 

Other things to think about include allowing this same rule to apply to NNDs/AVLDs and Ego Attacks and allowing Advantages to be purchased on Defense and Attack to side step it or ruling that some current rules affect it. For example Stun Only EB/Attacks don't inflict any threshold Body damage or Hardened Defenses stop it.

 

I'd make sure to let players increase their Body scores if I were going to start using this in an established campaign and make it clear if starting one with it. Body is often a skimped Characteristic in Superheroic games and with this rule it's entirely possible to be nickeled and dimed to death.

[Querysphinx]

Re: House Rule: Only half of your defense stops body damage.

 

To me it always seemed like killing attacks were an ad hoc mechanic trying to compensate for the fact that it was virtually impossible to hurt a character with high PD & ED. The essential problem is. If you have enough PD to deflect 2/3 of the damage of a punch then you have more than enough PD to ever take Body Damage from that punch. Conversely if you have low enough defenses to take Body from an attack it's probably going to knock you out in one punch. I surmise that the solution the designers came up with was killing attacks, which use a different mechanic that makes character buy different defenses and so on.

 

I never liked that mechanic, so I went back and made a house rule. I did away with PD ED and Killing attacks. I replaced them with STUN Defense, BODY Defense, and a "Killing" advantage.

 

STUN defense defends, sensibly enough, against STUN damage. It is a figured stat with a base value of STR+CON/10. Additional STUN Def costs 1 point per 1 Def.

 

BODY defense defends, sensibly enough, against BODY damage. It is a figured stat with a base value of 1+ (STR+CON/20). Additional BODY Def costs 2 points per 1 Def.

 

This means that for 5 points, a character can buy 3 STN Def and 1 BDY Def, which is, on average, enough to stop the BDY of a 1D6 Punch, while letting .5 STN through.

 

IMO, this compares favorably to buying 3 PD & ED for 6 points, which will always stop a 1D6 punch or EB and will let .5 STN through.

 

I also use a "killing" advantage. This +1/2 advantage means that the attack is designed to kill living things. Every BDY done by this attack that gets past the target's defenses is doubled (i.e. subtract defenses and then double the remainder), making these attacks far more lethal than their "normal" counterparts.

 

This system is sort of an ongoing playtest, but it's worked out well so far.

 

Now if only someone could show me how to enter these house rules into hero designer, I'd be a happy man.

[SCUBA Hero]

Re: House Rule: Only half of your defense stops body damage.

 

Querysphinx,

 

I suggest cross-posting that in the 6th edition forum.

[RDU Neil]

Re: House Rule: Only half of your defense stops body damage.

 

I have been thinking about comic books where nearly invunerable characters get injuries like broke ribs. In standard champions in is nearly impossible to do body damage to characters with "S"'s on their chest' date=' or really tough bricks like Hurcules who in, an old Avengers book wwas beaten nearly to death without "killing attacks" being used. The only way I can think of to simulate this in champions is only allow half of a characters defense stop body, while they would get all of it against stun. Any feed back or alternate ideas would be welcome.[/quote']

 

I think Nexus mentioned this, but the way I've done this is Every 20 Stun past defenses equals 1 Body done...

 

This way Bricks tend to get bruises and broken noses and such in straight up fights... and could be "beaten to death" when pounded upon on the ground. Very simple... and it adds just enough "grit" without making things really lethal in any way, unless you want a campaign where downed oponents are beaten to death... ... then you can do it.

[Querysphinx]

Re: House Rule: Only half of your defense stops body damage.

 

Querysphinx,

 

I suggest cross-posting that in the 6th edition forum.

 

I did post them to the 6th ed forum back when it was still receiving posts at about 80 posts per minute. I think I posted it twice. It was completely ignored.

 

I'll try again now that the forum has slowed down.

[nexus]

Re: House Rule: Only half of your defense stops body damage.

 

You can also take special effects into account. Every wound that draws blood or causes lingering pain is not necessarily Body damage. A broken nose, sprained or cracked ribs, etc, can just be cosmetic signs of a being in a rough battle if they don't really impair the character. Just because a character has recovered all their Stun doesn't mean they look fresh as a daisy. They may have "heroically mustered their will to press on despite their pain and fatigue". Broken limbs and other major injury (shattered ribs and ruptured organs) that seriously impede or threaten a character's life would be Body damage.

[Guest steamteck]

Re: House Rule: Only half of your defense stops body damage.

 

I think Nexus mentioned this, but the way I've done this is Every 20 Stun past defenses equals 1 Body done...

 

This way Bricks tend to get bruises and broken noses and such in straight up fights... and could be "beaten to death" when pounded upon on the ground. Very simple... and it adds just enough "grit" without making things really lethal in any way, unless you want a campaign where downed oponents are beaten to death... ... then you can do it.

 

 

We use exactly the same system. 20 points seems to give a decent amount of bruising without being excessive.

[tesuji]

Re: House Rule: Only half of your defense stops body damage.

 

a fairly simple approach - have every attack that does "at least X body" do a minimum of 1 body damage thru. Its almost impossible for someone to take enough hits for that to turn the tide, but it does mean a little her e and there will accumulate.

 

 

so if the hero engages in several fights in succession, that body damage may prove worrisome but likely not lethal.

 

you could even say "real gun" and "real weapons" limitations voids this effect - so the super punch for 10d6 does damage but the uzi does not.

[Kenn]

Re: House Rule: Only half of your defense stops body damage.

 

I think Nexus mentioned this, but the way I've done this is Every 20 Stun past defenses equals 1 Body done...

 

This way Bricks tend to get bruises and broken noses and such in straight up fights... and could be "beaten to death" when pounded upon on the ground. Very simple... and it adds just enough "grit" without making things really lethal in any way, unless you want a campaign where downed oponents are beaten to death... ... then you can do it.

 

This idea intrigues me. But I want to make sure I'm following it correctly.

 

A character with 30 PD is hit with a 10d6 attack that does 35 STUN total, so 5 after defenses. This happens three more times. The 30 PD has taken 5 and 5 and 5 and 5, so, with this rule, at this point he takes 1 BODY?

[nexus]

Re: House Rule: Only half of your defense stops body damage.

 

The way I've run it is:

 

The character needs to take more Stun past his defenses than the threshold in one attack to take Body. For example, a 30 ED is hit and takes 50 Stun from a fire blast. He takes 20 Stun and 1 Body from that attack. The character can only take Body from one source per attack. If he takes Body from the initial attack, he takes no Body from the Stun that gets through.

 

The threshold is per attack not cumulative but that is an interesting idea for an Advantage or an additional function for Cumulative in games that use this House rule.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: House Rule: Only half of your defense stops body damage.

 

This idea intrigues me. But I want to make sure I'm following it correctly.

 

A character with 30 PD is hit with a 10d6 attack that does 35 STUN total, so 5 after defenses. This happens three more times. The 30 PD has taken 5 and 5 and 5 and 5, so, with this rule, at this point he takes 1 BODY?

 

It's exactly this type of potential house rule confusion that makes me like the RAW mechanics approach better.

 

One of the most lauded parts of the Hero System is that once character creation is done 'all the rules are on the sheet'. Creating a house rule to substitute for something that can be accomplished with RAW seems to violate this idea.

[Kenn]

Re: House Rule: Only half of your defense stops body damage.

 

What is RAW?

[nexus]

Re: House Rule: Only half of your defense stops body damage.

 

What is RAW?

 

Rules As Written

[RDU Neil]

Re: House Rule: Only half of your defense stops body damage.

 

This idea intrigues me. But I want to make sure I'm following it correctly.

 

A character with 30 PD is hit with a 10d6 attack that does 35 STUN total, so 5 after defenses. This happens three more times. The 30 PD has taken 5 and 5 and 5 and 5, so, with this rule, at this point he takes 1 BODY?

 

No... sorry.. I was incomplete.

 

20 Stun after defenses from a SINGLE ATTACK.

 

So... a really big shot has a chance of doing one body, maybe. Sometimes mega hits that do 40+ stun after defenses do two body... and usually Con Stun the target or knock 'em out completely... or worse.

 

So... only occassionally is more Body done... and then, only on really big hits... but it allows for the possibility of massive damage doing body over time to massive defenses.

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: House Rule: Only half of your defense stops body damage.

 

Another possible way of doing it if you want to increase the body done by normal attacks is...to increase the body done by normal attacks.

 

Say, calculate body normally as today for KB purposes, but for actual body inflicted, do something like either 1's count as 1 body instead of zero or 5's count as 2 body. Or both, if you want lots and lots of body.

[nexus]

Re: House Rule: Only half of your defense stops body damage.

 

Or apply a multiplier to Body damage.

[RDU Neil]

Re: House Rule: Only half of your defense stops body damage.

 

It's exactly this type of potential house rule confusion that makes me like the RAW mechanics approach better.

 

One of the most lauded parts of the Hero System is that once character creation is done 'all the rules are on the sheet'. Creating a house rule to substitute for something that can be accomplished with RAW seems to violate this idea.

 

This I don't understand. The rules for many combat maneuvers and the "effect" of being stunned or knocked unconscious are not "on the character sheet." This house rule is just creating a new "effect" of certain power interactions... not a power construct, not a part of any one character in particular... but a game rule that creates a certain kind of game play.

 

In early Champions there were lots of things that didnt' exist that do now... lots of martial maneuvers or combat stuff like "bouncing" and attack. Certain effects of powers like negative characteristics and such. Only over time did certain effects get built into the game. But they aren't "on the character sheet" in any way shape or form.

 

This rule just adds an "effect" to the game, and has nothing to do with RAW or cooked.

[RDU Neil]

Re: House Rule: Only half of your defense stops body damage.

 

Or apply a multiplier to Body damage.

 

Yeah... I've often thought about this. The basic function is that Stun is dealt out a 3.5 times the amount of body, on average. That spread leads to the traditional... "I need 35 PD to feel like a brick in resisting stun... and that far outclasses any possible Body happening from normal attacks."

 

If you reduce that spread... by say adding a x2 multiplier to Body on Normal attacks... you get a very different "feel" in the game. I've never played with it enough to know if I liked it... and the +20 Stun + 1 Body rule covered what we wanted in our play group.

 

Have you played with a Body multiplier? How did it work out?

[Beast]

Re: House Rule: Only half of your defense stops body damage.

 

one I just thought of would be to give penatrating(does body) for free on 1 die for say attacks over 45 active

this way most normal weapons short of a .50 cal sniper rifle or hmg will cause some body damage

but then you will have a lot of supers buying slow regen or having their own hospital rooms

[Hyper-Man]

Re: House Rule: Only half of your defense stops body damage.

 

This I don't understand. The rules for many combat maneuvers and the "effect" of being stunned or knocked unconscious are not "on the character sheet." This house rule is just creating a new "effect" of certain power interactions... not a power construct, not a part of any one character in particular... but a game rule that creates a certain kind of game play.

 

In early Champions there were lots of things that didnt' exist that do now... lots of martial maneuvers or combat stuff like "bouncing" and attack. Certain effects of powers like negative characteristics and such. Only over time did certain effects get built into the game. But they aren't "on the character sheet" in any way shape or form.

 

This rule just adds an "effect" to the game, and has nothing to do with RAW or cooked.

 

 

But it does appear* to violate otherwise viable power constructs.

 

Let's say that we have a 'Defender-like' powererd-armor hero with several powers bought through an OIF suit of armor. This type of rule implies that Body damage is getting past the defense of the armor and subsequently shutting down a power it provides in the process.

 

from page 294 ■ Character Creation: Power Modifiers Hero System 5th Edition, Revised

 

When an attack hits a Breakable Focus, each attack that penetrates the DEF of the Focus and does BODY damage destroys one of the powers bought through the Focus.

 

*Unless there are exceptions to the house rule for cases like this and other situations (like Hardened defenses, Damage Reduction, etc...).

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: House Rule: Only half of your defense stops body damage.

 

I like the bleedthrough damage rules as well, but as usual in these types of discussions I feel compelled to point out that one of the main reasons this happens is because of the way the Normal Damage mechanic strongly tends to the center of the bell curve, an effect that gets paradoxically worse the more damage thrown.

 

Ways to fix this by the RAW include Critical Hits and Hit Locations. High die normal attacks become much more fearsome if you have the possibility of a Body Multiplier or semi frequently inflicting twice the attacks dice in BODY.

[nexus]

Re: House Rule: Only half of your defense stops body damage.

 

High die normal attacks become much more fearsome if you have the possibility of a Body Multiplier or semi frequently inflicting twice the attacks dice in BODY.

 

Hit Locations for Normal Damage do take Defenses into account first before increasing the Body done though.