Help a start-up GM

[Guest Kolava]

What are the rules for causing someone else harm with thier own weapon without disarming them of it? For example, a telekinetic character wishes to force someone to shoot themselves in the head, and has 40 STR with which to do so. As a beginer GM, I am clueless as to how to rule this one.

[RadeFox]

Pretty simple, really. The TK'r rolls 8d6, and counts the Pips, the gun wielder rolls 1d5/5 Strength. Whoever gets the most pips, wins. Ties go to the defender (Gub Guy).

 

Remember, though, the TK'r ,must hit the Gun with his TK, which I'd say is the Gun Guys DVC + 3-5 depending on your own judgement.

[JMHammer]

Hitting a gun

 

Remember, though, the TK'r ,must hit the Gun with his TK, which I'd say is the Gun Guys DVC + 3-5 depending on your own judgement.

 

More than 20 years playing Hero and I still have hiccups like this...

 

Isn't targeting an accessible focus a -2 OCV attack? Isn't someone's gun a focus for this purpose whether they paid points for it or not?

 

John H

[Talon]

Re: Hitting a gun

 

Originally posted by JMHammer

More than 20 years playing Hero and I still have hiccups like this...

 

Isn't targeting an accessible focus a -2 OCV attack? Isn't someone's gun a focus for this purpose whether they paid points for it or not?

 

John H

 

Correct. So you must hit the guy's DCV with a -2 OCV modifier, then do a STR vs. STR roll. I don't think there's a specific rule in FREd for making someone shoot himself (UMA, perhaps), but a STR vs. STR roll would probably be enough for me.

[Jeff]

Re: Re: Hitting a gun

 

Originally posted by Geoff Speare

Correct. So you must hit the guy's DCV with a -2 OCV modifier, then do a STR vs. STR roll. I don't think there's a specific rule in FREd for making someone shoot himself (UMA, perhaps), but a STR vs. STR roll would probably be enough for me.

It'd have to be TK that includes Fine Manipulation too, for trigger pulling. STR 40 might be excessive, but it'd certainly get the job done providing sufficient force; someone who can armwrestle that probably doesn't need a gun in the first place.

[Guest Kolava]

Thank you. But, I'm sorta curious...why do you have to roll an attack roll for TK? The character in question has no SFX that could explain him "missing" something he was trying to move. Is it really possible to be trying to lift something from a table with your mind, but "miss" and lift something else?

[Talon]

You need it for game balance. "I always hit" is far too powerful to give a character without their paying points for it.

 

If the character's TK never misses, then you should be buying tons of OCV levels, so that your roll to hit anyone is always 18- (then get the GM to either rule that you always hit, or make the special-effects of rolling an 18 be something other than missing -- perhaps the character blinked or something).

[Jeff]

Generally I'd picture grabbing something telekinetically as about as easy or difficult as grabbing it with your hand - you can just do it at range and without a hand involved. Out of combat, under normal conditions, you don't often miss an object you're trying to pick off a table, although it's not impossible. In combat, with someone struggling or making it difficult for you, you're going to run into problems that way. That gun's pretty mobile in combat, and you've got to be a bit distracted there too, by things like (e.g.) not being a good target for said gun while you're trying to wrest control of it. "Missing" in that case seems entirely plausible, although one might prefer to describe it as failing to get an adequate hold.

 

If you want to cut down on misses, you might get the Telekinesis as AE - 1 hex and then snag the Accurate mod for it at +1/2 advantage total. Your target will be perpetually DCV 3 in that case. IF you've got a typical OCV, it will mean rare misses. Add in a few levels and rare will become one time in 216 (17-).

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Geoff Speare

You need it for game balance. "I always hit" is far too powerful to give a character without their paying points for it.

 

If the character's TK never misses, then you should be buying tons of OCV levels, so that your roll to hit anyone is always 18- (then get the GM to either rule that you always hit, or make the special-effects of rolling an 18 be something other than missing -- perhaps the character blinked or something).

 

Or buy 1 hex area - it's a lot tougher to miss then. Especially if you make the power BoECV - then you get no range penalties.

[Guest Keneton]

The answer!

 

This is called a grab and redirect. It is coverd in the UMA combat section. you hit the weapon (-2 to OCV) and then redirect the weapon with an opposed strength check. The rules section is in UMA on page 145

[Farkling]

My vision of TK with Area Effect - One Hex is that it would hit the hex as a whole....grabbing everything in it....you'd definitely need the Fine Manipulation then.

 

If you're worried about to hit rolls you can go with Based On ECV, which makes it Mental and mostly invisible, but if you're using a DEX-based TK effect and don't want to retool your character....then put Invisible Power Effects on the TK.

[Jeff]

Originally posted by Farkling

My vision of TK with Area Effect - One Hex is that it would hit the hex as a whole....grabbing everything in it....you'd definitely need the Fine Manipulation then.

Right. That's why you'd grab Accurate - it's automatically a single target in the hex - or Selective, if it were any larger an area.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Farkling

My vision of TK with Area Effect - One Hex is that it would hit the hex as a whole....grabbing everything in it....you'd definitely need the Fine Manipulation then.

 

What else is likely in the hex? I got my target - if I throw around some other debris it may not be an issue.

 

I think TK - 1 hex could be devestating against martial artists, speedsters and other high DCV characters. Not only does the attackget around their high DCV, but they are now "stuck" until they can break out, which meanms others may be able to get a solid hit in.

[Farkling]

Huhg, I was thinking it wopuld grab everything as a whole, foci, debris, loose items....

 

I'd rule Fine Manipulation would be necessary to affect an individual target within the area - ie. turn the gun on the wielder and pull the trigger

[pinecone]

Or buy a multipower of RKA and E atk vari-special effect and the "grab" is just a special effect...."Dude this tweaks my melon!,I shot myself with this gun ,yet I still have 6 charges..."

[Vondy]

It sounds like a strength versus strength contest to me.

 

I use an alternate system for this that eliminates the "counting body" element. I just turn the rolls into regular stat rolls.

 

40 STR TK = (9 + 40/5) or 17-

 

It takes less dice, and it has proven faster in play. I don't think it changes the odds in any significant way, either.

 

I use a similar system for presence attacks/contests, but it requires a bit of GM interpretation (like anything else).

[Farkling]

It does change the odds slightly...but I do enjoy the fluctuation it gives. And you can't knock the speed increase...one quick roll versus "how many dice tdo I get for STR? And I count the total? Just the BODY? But what about the STUN, shouldn't it count?." I can't show you the statistical reason for the variance, but I know it's in there...

[Guest Keneton]

The strength roll generating body versus the die roll is made to conform to the rules of martial arts. You can purchase exerts elements for martial arts that add to strength for generating body. The dice roll off does not accurately simulate this finess.

[Jeff]

Originally posted by Keneton

The strength roll generating body versus the die roll is made to conform to the rules of martial arts. You can purchase exerts elements for martial arts that add to strength for generating body. The dice roll off does not accurately simulate this finess.

Would there be a problem using the STR as adjusted by the maneuver for the STR rolls to be used?

[Sociotard]

I'm surprised a anormal STR versus STR is acceptable here. I'm trying to envision it as me grabbing a mans arm, forcing his hand to his temple (or any of his body parts, for that matter) and pulling the trigger. When guys try that stunt in the movies, unless one is vastly stronger than the other, it takes quite a while to pull off. More time by far than is represented with SPD 3 characters trying to do it in one phase. I would require the attacker to roll quite abit more body than the defender, perhaps 1.5 - 2 times as much.

[Guest Keneton]

CLARIFICATION

 

Once agin this is not a strength roll or a normal strength vs, strength roll. This is a grab and redirect as per the UMA. (see my first post on this thread) If you are grabbing and redirecting a weapon such as a knife, this is simple. Other more complcated foci such as a gun may require a grab and control, then another half action attack on the next available phase. the gun weilder could then abort to an escape for example resulting in another strength roll. You may not be able to do this at all with a personal focus (special effects dictate).

 

In the case of martial art exert(s), the bonus would not add to a subsequent maneuver.

 

As for the 3d6 system. . .Why change teh rules. Is counting body and following the rules as written too hard? I am not sure what advantage is gained in altering the rules. IMHO this only leads to an increased chance of the normal beating the brick in a roll off or some other strange result. The standard and correct sytem is the one in FRED and supporting books.

 

If there is a rule for something already, why look for an opinion?

[badger3k]

Re: CLARIFICATION

 

Originally posted by Keneton

Once agin this is not a strength roll or a normal strength vs, strength roll. This is a grab and redirect as per the UMA. (see my first post on this thread)

 

As for the 3d6 system. . .Why change teh rules. Is counting body and following the rules as written too hard? I am not sure what advantage is gained in altering the rules. IMHO this only leads to an increased chance of the normal beating the brick in a roll off or some other strange result. The standard and correct sytem is the one in FRED and supporting books.

 

If there is a rule for something already, why look for an opinion?

 

Two questions - what if you're not playing with the UMA? There's nothing that says it has to be used or owned. Based on FRED alone I'd use a grab or disarm type maneuver, which uses a STR vs STR . But since I do have the UMA I'd use that system if it ever comes up.

 

Second question - "Normally, when you want to find out the effect of exerting STR, you roll the character's damage dice fro mSTR ... and count the normal damage BODY. If two characters compete in a test of STR, each rolls his STR dice, and the character with the most BODY (or a predefined number of BODY) succeeds. In some cases, it may be quicker to ask for a STR Roll (9+(STR/5) or less) instead; the character who makes his roll by the most wins the contest." FRED p 20. How is that changing the rules? To me that seems a valid option since its suggested in the main book. Depending on the strengths involved, it may make it easier or harder - I'd rather count BODY than have to figure out the difference between die rolls but that's me.

 

I really mean no offense, but isn't the purpose of a lot of these postings to look at options?

[Guest Keneton]

Re: Re: CLARIFICATION

 

Originally posted by badger3k

Two questions - what if you're not playing with the UMA? There's nothing that says it has to be used or owned. Based on FRED alone I'd use a grab or disarm type maneuver, which uses a STR vs STR . But since I do have the UMA I'd use that system if it ever comes up.

 

Second question - "Normally, when you want to find out the effect of exerting STR, you roll the character's damage dice fro mSTR ... and count the normal damage BODY. If two characters compete in a test of STR, each rolls his STR dice, and the character with the most BODY (or a predefined number of BODY) succeeds. In some cases, it may be quicker to ask for a STR Roll (9+(STR/5) or less) instead; the character who makes his roll by the most wins the contest." FRED p 20. How is that changing the rules? To me that seems a valid option since its suggested in the main book. Depending on the strengths involved, it may make it easier or harder - I'd rather count BODY than have to figure out the difference between die rolls but that's me.

 

I really mean no offense, but isn't the purpose of a lot of these postings to look at options?

 

No offense meant or taken. What you cite from p.20. . .Yes this is the rule, but exexrts work with the body generation per the faq and Fred. If you are not using UMA this is still covered under grab. UMA adds Grab and Redirect, Shove, and Control. I agree you can do this without the added books.

 

TK uses these rules as it works like strength at range. I think actually we agree here. What FRED does not cover but is available in UMA and Fantasy Hero is that two people can grab a weapon and one can use it on another. FRED gives the groundwork for this but not the additional rule. It is found elsewhere.

 

I disagree that the dice roll alternative (3d6) is the main rule, but instead a shortcut alternative. As I stated earlier it leads to more randomness and is far more appropriate for heroic level games where TK is far more rare. True as cited it is an option, but the thread requested the BEST option. The thread starter was a new GM and so I gave the most concise and correct interpreation of the rules that I could.

 

I do disagree on what this thread is about. It was not about options but help on a rule on how to. IMHO this is a rules question and there is one best solution. True there are other options, but the thread starter is a new GM! I only worry that new GM's are confused by a vast number of OPINIONS that are not grounded in game specific information.

 

You took the time to cite a rule and quote it. Your type of advice is PRODUCTIVE. Opinions and guesses only further confuse the new GM making the post.

 

I thank you for your comments and appreciate your kind respone.

[Farkling]

...and I posted my opinion on the STR roll vs STR roll as being faster...and I use it because my Champions combats (troupe) is between 6 and 9 players...plus all the extra's, NPC's, and Supers...

 

The message to a new GM from me was intended as a combat speed tip...I should've explained better I guess...

[Guest Keneton]

Originally posted by Farkling

...and I posted my opinion on the STR roll vs STR roll as being faster...and I use it because my Champions combats (troupe) is between 6 and 9 players...plus all the extra's, NPC's, and Supers...

 

The message to a new GM from me was intended as a combat speed tip...I should've explained better I guess...

 

You were just being helpful and I am sure he and we all appreciated your response. I was just defending my position and answer as accurate. You are correct in saying this could speed things up for a new GM.