Bestiar(ies) questions

[Vestnik]

I was leafing through the Bestiary and Asian Bestiary I books for about the billionth time and some stuff starting curdling away in my noggin.

 

Why are antlers built with the No Strength Bonus limitation? I can't figure this one out.

 

If a Rhino charges you with its horn (or a Minotaur, etc.), does this count as a MPA with both a normal Move Through and a KA Move Through (I doubt seriously that this is legal)? If not, there's no point in them ever doing it with the horn, since it does less damage than the regular Move Through.

 

When did bite attacks stop being built with the Restrainable limitation? Intuitively, it seems they should be -- not much reach, after all, compared to claws.

 

Also, shouldn't these animals have Discriminatory with Smell instead of just tracking?

 

Thankee-thankee.

[Mr. Gridlock]

Re: Bestiar(ies) questions

 

Why are antlers built with the No Strength Bonus limitation? I can't figure this one out.

 

You don't have the leverage that you do with swinging your arm. The best you could hope for would be to add some damage from velocity, i.e. Move-By/Through.

 

If a Rhino charges you with its horn (or a Minotaur, etc.), does this count as a MPA with both a normal Move Through and a KA Move Through (I doubt seriously that this is legal)? If not, there's no point in them ever doing it with the horn, since it does less damage than the regular Move Through.

KA Move-Through, yes.

 

When did bite attacks stop being built with the Restrainable limitation? Intuitively, it seems they should be -- not much reach, after all, compared to claws.

Much harder to restrain a set of jaws than a limb (or pair).

 

Also, shouldn't these animals have Discriminatory with Smell instead of just tracking?

I've always built them with Discriminatory for Normal Smell.

[Vestnik]

Re: Bestiar(ies) questions

 

 

KA Move-Through, yes.

 

(Opens Bestiary)

 

So, if the Rhino charges, it does BOTH its 3d6+1 HKA (which can't be increased by the Move-Through, since it's already at twice the base damage with STR) AND the 7d6 + (27"/3 = 9d6) = 16d6 Normal Damage Move-Through? Is that right?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Bestiar(ies) questions

 

It does either Move Through with the Horn for 3D6+1 (a charge) or Move Through with STR+Velcoity for 16D6 (a trample).

 

Unless the GM wants it to do both as a Multiple Power Attack Move Through.

[Vestnik]

Re: Bestiar(ies) questions

 

This was my problem -- the horn charge does much less damage than the charge attack. There's no point in using the horn except in close combat. The same thing applies to several other ramming beasties.

 

(I have similar issues with respect to Grond's silly 1d6 HKA attack.)

 

OK, I tend to get fixated on little details, I know.

[Mr. Gridlock]

Re: Bestiar(ies) questions

 

I would not allow both (the MPA). And since they have different defenses that apply, I would say you simply have options.

 

Someone with rDef, trample 'em. No rDef, gore 'em.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Bestiar(ies) questions

 

This was my problem -- the horn charge does much less damage than the charge attack. There's no point in using the horn except in close combat. The same thing applies to several other ramming beasties.

 

(I have similar issues with respect to Grond's silly 1d6 HKA attack.)

 

OK, I tend to get fixated on little details, I know.

 

Remember that Killing Attacks are only stopped by Resistant Defenses, and most natural creatures have only small amounts of that, so the horn will often inflict more BODY Damage on even a large target. Also, the rhino doesn't have to charge as far or as fast to get the full benefit of the horn's damage, or suffer the OCV penalty from a full-velocity trampling Move-Through.

[Vestnik]

Re: Bestiar(ies) questions

 

The idea of a horn doing the same damage when it's goring you at close range and when it's goring you at 30 miles an hour bugs me.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Bestiar(ies) questions

 

The idea of a horn doing the same damage when it's goring you at close range and when it's goring you at 30 miles an hour bugs me.

 

It's an artifact of the strange Killing Attack rules and the whole doubling thing. More and more I'm coming under the impressing that the "can't be more than doubled" should only apply to actual Weapons and not all KAs.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Bestiar(ies) questions

 

I would not allow both (the MPA). And since they have different defenses that apply, I would say you simply have options.

 

Someone with rDef, trample 'em. No rDef, gore 'em.

 

I'm of exactly the opposite view.

 

It's not like the Rhino looks at a target and evaluates if it looks Resistant.

 

As far as I'm concerned, any animal that buys a bunch of attack powers at full cost should go to town with MPA's, especially when it makes sense both dramatically and realisticly.

 

I'd totally do a Rhino Charge as an MPA, because that's what rhinos do.

They gore you then trample your body.

[SCUBA Hero]

Re: Bestiar(ies) questions

 

It's an artifact of the strange Killing Attack rules and the whole doubling thing. More and more I'm coming under the impressing that the "can't be more than doubled" should only apply to actual Weapons and not all KAs.

In this case, you'd only have to remove the restriction that only Normal Damage can be more than doubled by Movement...

 

I dunno, though. Strap a really small blade (1 pip HKA) to the front of a rhino that's missing its horn, and suddenly it can do, say, 3d6 HKA with its Movement adds? There should be some cap, I think.

[Vestnik]

Re: Bestiar(ies) questions

 

You could just buy the Rhino an extra 1/2d6 HKA, Only for Move-Throughs. That would raise its damage to a highly respectable (and more realistic) 5d6-1.

[Mr. Gridlock]

Re: Bestiar(ies) questions

 

I'm of exactly the opposite view.

 

It's not like the Rhino looks at a target and evaluates if it looks Resistant.

 

As far as I'm concerned, any animal that buys a bunch of attack powers at full cost should go to town with MPA's, especially when it makes sense both dramatically and realisticly.

 

I'd totally do a Rhino Charge as an MPA, because that's what rhinos do.

They gore you then trample your body.

 

The gore then trample doesn't have to happen in the same phase by any means. No need for an MPA.

[Vestnik]

Re: Bestiar(ies) questions

 

But the point is to bring the charge into something in line with what being hit by a huge hunk of armor-clad muscle should be. As things stand the rhino (and lots of other horned beasties) does exactly the same damage with its horn when it is at rest as when it connects at its full 27" running. This. Is. Silly.

[CTaylor]

Re: Bestiar(ies) questions

 

why doesn't the move through do more damage with the KA? Is there some limitation on it that prevents that from happening? Just because it cannot use strength to increase the damage does not mean it cannot use velocity.

 

And 5D6-1 is absurdly high damage, you'd rip open a tank. That's just silly.

[Vestnik]

Re: Bestiar(ies) questions

 

Tanks have like 30 PD.

 

The thing is, the KA can only be doubled. It's a 1 1/2d6 HKA and the Rhino has a 35 STR. So it's already at its maximum of 3d6+1.

[Mr. Gridlock]

Re: Bestiar(ies) questions

 

But the point is to bring the charge into something in line with what being hit by a huge hunk of armor-clad muscle should be. As things stand the rhino (and lots of other horned beasties) does exactly the same damage with its horn when it is at rest as when it connects at its full 27" running. This. Is. Silly.

 

Who's to say that the rhino uses its full STR at rest? Just because you can doesn't mean you should, i.e. it might not be the most realistic representation of how the animal defends itself.

[SCUBA Hero]

Re: Bestiar(ies) questions

 

why doesn't the move through do more damage with the KA? Is there some limitation on it that prevents that from happening? Just because it cannot use strength to increase the damage does not mean it cannot use velocity.

5er page 406 - Movement bonuses to Normal Damage may exceed the number of dice in the base attack. KA's don't have the exception.

 

I like Vestnik's suggestion of adding 1/2d6 HKA, make it say Only When Moving More Than X" Per Phase.

 

Or put a Naked Armor Piercing Advantage with the same Limitation on it.

 

Still, per my earlier post, I do think you need to cap KA damage somewhere.

[CTaylor]

Re: Bestiar(ies) questions

 

That still doesn't answer my question. I asked why the KA doesn't do more damage with a move through, not why the damage can't go over the cap. Is the damage capped already for the rhino?

 

Look at a few items and how much body they have a few times before you decide 3D6+1 KA isn't enough, though. Think about it, the average damage of that much is 12 1/2 body; that's going to do in a human with one hit, it will severely damage a car. Just how powerful do you think a rhinoceros is? That maxes out at 19 body and 95 stun, does that seem light to you? If so, you need to step away from the 450 point superhero games a bit and look at ordinary animals again.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Bestiar(ies) questions

 

That still doesn't answer my question. I asked why the KA doesn't do more damage with a move through' date=' not why the damage can't go over the cap. Is the damage capped already for the rhino?[/quote']

 

It can't go over the cap because the rule say a Killing Attack can no more than be doubled from its base damage. Which, in this case, makes it a maximum of 3D6+1 whether that comes from +STR or +Velocity.

[Greywind]

Re: Bestiar(ies) questions

 

Somehow, I don't really think the victim is going to care how many dice were rolled...

[prestidigitator]

Re: Bestiar(ies) questions

 

It can't go over the cap because the rule say a Killing Attack can no more than be doubled from its base damage. Which' date=' in this case, makes it a maximum of 3D6+1 whether that comes from +STR or +Velocity.[/quote']

 

I don't think that's true. Velocity bonuses is exempt from the doubling rule (as are Extra DCs from Martial Arts).

[Vestnik]

Re: Bestiar(ies) questions

 

It is? Do you have a page ref? (I have 5E, not 5ER.)

[Mr. Gridlock]

Re: Bestiar(ies) questions

 

Not true.

 

Movement Adding To Killing Damage

For Killing Damage, a character can add 1 DC

for every 1d6 of bonus Normal Damage dice. However,

he still cannot more than double the damage

done by the weapon or attack (he cannot add more

DCs than the attack normally has). For example,

if a character with a sword (HKA 1d6+1) did a

Move By at 15”, he would add +3 DCs damage from

velocity, thus increasing the sword’s damage to

2d6+1. At most, between velocity and other methods,

he can increase the sword’s damage to 2½d6

(twice the weapon’s base DCs).

 

pg. 407 of 5er

[Susano]

Re: Bestiar(ies) questions

 

I was leafing through the Bestiary and Asian Bestiary I books for about the billionth time and some stuff starting curdling away in my noggin.

 

Why are antlers built with the No Strength Bonus limitation? I can't figure this one out.

 

If a Rhino charges you with its horn (or a Minotaur, etc.), does this count as a MPA with both a normal Move Through and a KA Move Through (I doubt seriously that this is legal)? If not, there's no point in them ever doing it with the horn, since it does less damage than the regular Move Through.

 

When did bite attacks stop being built with the Restrainable limitation? Intuitively, it seems they should be -- not much reach, after all, compared to claws.

 

Also, shouldn't these animals have Discriminatory with Smell instead of just tracking?

 

Thankee-thankee.

 

1) Dunno. But that was how it was built in the Hero System Bestiary, so I went with it.

2) I think you'd have to pick on or the other. However, the horn is an HKA, which means it will ignore all of the non-Resistant PD the character might have, which will help defend against the BODY damage of the STR-based Move-Through.

3) I don't recall a bite-SFX ever having Restrainable (even in 4th edition) but I have often thought they should.

4) Ahhh... good question. I guess it's just a style choice, and easy to add if you want it.