Sean Waters Posted February 12, 2009 Report Share Posted February 12, 2009 When we build martial arts we mess with maneouvre bases, OCV, DCV and damage. Here's a thought: wouldn't it be interesting if we included something like 'lighning reflexes' in MA maneouvres: then you could choose to do a faster or slower maneouvre, and possibly hit before an oponent even if their DEX is higher, so, for instance, a MARTIAL STRIKE might look like this: +0 OCV +2 DCV STR+2d6 damage +2 lightning reflexes If you use MARTIAL STRIKE as a DEX 23 character, that particular attack goes off as if you were DEX 25. Oh, and 'lightning reflexes' costs too much: +1 point per + 1 point would do nicely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vulcan Posted February 12, 2009 Report Share Posted February 12, 2009 Re: Martial Arts Idea It's an interesting idea, but implementing it in game could be difficult. You'd have to commit to the maneuver at the beginning of the phase so that you could take advantage of acting sooner... That's one of my problems with limited forms of Lightning Reflexes as well (and don't get m started on mentalists going 'on their EGO's'). I look at Lightning Reflexes the same way I do KB Resistance: if it's too cheap then everyone has it - and not everyone should. High DEX concepts don't need it. Slow concepts shouldn't want it. It should be for things like weaponmasters - you know, normals who run with supers based on 'extraordinary skill.' Guys with normal DEX's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted February 13, 2009 Report Share Posted February 13, 2009 Re: Martial Arts Idea Oh' date=' and 'lightning reflexes' costs too much: +1 point per + 1 point would do nicely.[/quote'] While I agree it costs too much, I'm not even sure it's worth 1 point per +1. I look at Lightning Reflexes the same way I do KB Resistance: if it's too cheap then everyone has it - and not everyone should. High DEX concepts don't need it. Slow concepts shouldn't want it. It should be for things like weaponmasters - you know, normals who run with supers based on 'extraordinary skill.' Guys with normal DEX's. And if it's too expensive, characters take high DEX instead, and concept be damned - like pretty much all the weaponmasters in Champions products. No concept should be penalized by making the abilities they need in concept more expensive than the mechanical abilities are worth. A normal human with +3 OCV, +3 DCV and +9 Lightning Reflexes should not pay more than 18 points (+9 DEX less Speed rebate). They should pay LESS because their DEX skills and DEX rolls are not enhanced. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice9 Posted February 13, 2009 Report Share Posted February 13, 2009 Re: Martial Arts Idea Same issue with 10-pt CSLs - they only make sense in games with mandatory NCM, because otherwise you're paying 10 points for less than 9 points worth of abilities. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fitz Posted February 13, 2009 Report Share Posted February 13, 2009 Re: Martial Arts Idea Same issue with 10-pt CSLs - they only make sense in games with mandatory NCM' date=' because otherwise you're paying 10 points for less than 9 points worth of abilities.[/quote'] How do you figure? As far as I know, overall (10pt) levels can be applied to just about any roll you make, so you're getting at least 12pts of value from the CHAR rolls alone. Admittedly it's not often most characters would have to make a COM roll, but if you do, your 10pt level is sitting there waiting for it. Then there's All Combat (8pts worth), possibly stuff like Danger Sense rolls... 10pt levels are pretty cost-effective. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nevenall Posted February 13, 2009 Report Share Posted February 13, 2009 Re: Martial Arts Idea Acutually, you can already buy Lightning Reflexes for one specific maneuver at a cost of 1 pt per +1 DEX. The only reason to integrate it with maneuver building is so it can contribute to the 3 point minimum cost. And the 10 pt minimum of maneuvers. And I think it's a cool idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Goodwin Posted February 13, 2009 Report Share Posted February 13, 2009 Re: Martial Arts Idea When we build martial arts we mess with maneouvre bases, OCV, DCV and damage. Here's a thought: wouldn't it be interesting if we included something like 'lighning reflexes' in MA maneouvres: then you could choose to do a faster or slower maneouvre, and possibly hit before an oponent even if their DEX is higher, so, for instance, a MARTIAL STRIKE might look like this: +0 OCV +2 DCV STR+2d6 damage +2 lightning reflexes If you use MARTIAL STRIKE as a DEX 23 character, that particular attack goes off as if you were DEX 25. Oh, and 'lightning reflexes' costs too much: +1 point per + 1 point would do nicely. Just, why is this not in the 6e forum? I like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alibear Posted February 13, 2009 Report Share Posted February 13, 2009 Re: Martial Arts Idea When we're thinking about M.Arts, why are ranged M.Arts so much more limited than the HTH variant? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prestidigitator Posted February 13, 2009 Report Share Posted February 13, 2009 Re: Martial Arts Idea I like the concept but, like Vulcan, I'm not overly fond of conditional Lightning Reflexes for practical reasons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AmadanNaBriona Posted February 13, 2009 Report Share Posted February 13, 2009 Re: Martial Arts Idea not a bad idea at all. for that matter I'd like to see a couple of other ala carte priced things added as MA options, like Piercing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markdoc Posted February 13, 2009 Report Share Posted February 13, 2009 Re: Martial Arts Idea How do you figure? As far as I know' date=' overall (10pt) levels can be applied to just about any roll you make, so you're getting at least 12pts of value from the CHAR rolls alone. Admittedly it's not often most characters would have to make a COM roll, but if you do, your 10pt level is sitting there waiting for it. Then there's All Combat (8pts worth), possibly stuff like Danger Sense rolls... 10pt levels are pretty cost-effective.[/quote'] Yep, 10 point levels are golden, if you have many skills. They're so good, I never did work out why people would buy 8 pt (with all combat) CSLs when they could get a 10 point level (+1 with all other skill rolls) for 2 points more. A character with say 3 x 10 point levels has sunk 30 points into it, but he gets decent combat utility out of it and can reach excellent skill levels on minimal point investments in each skill. It's clearly not for everybody (you could get +3 SPD for that) but for people with lots of skills, 10 pt levels are invaluable. cheers, Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper-Man Posted February 13, 2009 Report Share Posted February 13, 2009 Re: Martial Arts Idea Yep, 10 point levels are golden, if you have many skills. They're so good, I never did work out why people would buy 8 pt (with all combat) CSLs when they could get a 10 point level (+1 with all other skill rolls) for 2 points more. A character with say 3 x 10 point levels has sunk 30 points into it, but he gets decent combat utility out of it and can reach excellent skill levels on minimal point investments in each skill. It's clearly not for everybody (you could get +3 SPD for that) but for people with lots of skills, 10 pt levels are invaluable. cheers, Mark Pile on... When you have 3 of them they even have a certain 'Speed-like' quality as they allow you to complete tasks one step down the Time Chart (if completing a task would normally take 1 Minute the character can put 3 Overall Levels towards completing the task in 1 Turn instead). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted February 13, 2009 Report Share Posted February 13, 2009 Re: Martial Arts Idea Acutually, you can already buy Lightning Reflexes for one specific maneuver at a cost of 1 pt per +1 DEX. The only reason to integrate it with maneuver building is so it can contribute to the 3 point minimum cost. And the 10 pt minimum of maneuvers. And I think it's a cool idea. I also like the idea of quicker or slower maneuvers. But I think 1 point for LR for one maneuver is hideously overpriced, as is LR in general. For 2 points, I can buy my DEX up 1 point, after the rebate on my Speed, get LR with all my abilities and build up my CV, skill and DEX rolls. That seems a lot more useful than acting a bit faster with a single ability. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Gridlock Posted February 13, 2009 Report Share Posted February 13, 2009 Re: Martial Arts Idea Considering that maneuvers cost between 3-5 points already, adding Lightning Reflexes as part of the maneuver can break that cost structure without introducing more restrictions to bring the cost back under 5. Since Lightning Reflexes: Single Action already exists, I don't see this as something necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markdoc Posted February 13, 2009 Report Share Posted February 13, 2009 Re: Martial Arts Idea When we build martial arts we mess with maneouvre bases, OCV, DCV and damage. Here's a thought: wouldn't it be interesting if we included something like 'lighning reflexes' in MA maneouvres: then you could choose to do a faster or slower maneouvre, and possibly hit before an oponent even if their DEX is higher, so, for instance, a MARTIAL STRIKE might look like this: +0 OCV +2 DCV STR+2d6 damage +2 lightning reflexes If you use MARTIAL STRIKE as a DEX 23 character, that particular attack goes off as if you were DEX 25. Oh, and 'lightning reflexes' costs too much: +1 point per + 1 point would do nicely. I like the idea - and since I already use standard power building rules to build MA attacks, it's immediately applicable. Thanks, Sean! cheers, Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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