N-Ray with Senses having the opposite effect?

[Xotl]

It's an odd scenario perhaps, but I'm confused as to how to accurately model an effect I'd like. I want Detect Mind (bought as a Sense via Mental Group). The idea behind it is that the character is able to sense the minds of anyone within range, with physical objects not blocking it, simply because I just don't see that they should.

 

The rulebook provides no guidelines as to what blocks a sense. The FAQ says that there's nothing set in stone, and that to

 

"...consider the special effects involved, particularly when you’re building a power. If you want to create a power that can Detect Magic without being blocked by physical objects, build it so that you don’t have to assign it to a Sense Group that would ordinarily have difficulty perceiving through physical objects. Then the whole issue becomes moot."

 

That's exactly how I see this power build, where the character "sees" the locations of other minds in his mind. So, N-Ray Perception (Mental) seems unnecessary. At the same time, am I just using fluff to work my way around the need to buy a modifier I should have?

 

It gets worse because if I buy N-Ray I need to specify something reasonably common that blocks it, yet the base Detect Mind build as I've described above seems to be able to not be blocked by anything (other than Invisibility of course), meaning if I buy N-Ray I'm paying points to make a power (that isn't blocked by things) weaker (able to be blocked by something).

 

Can anyone offer a little guidance here?

[TheDux]

Re: N-Ray with Senses having the opposite effect?

 

You could assign Mental Defense as the block. Since Mental Defense is more or less a "block" against other mental powers. And while you are buying it as a sense, the SFX is more or less mental based.

 

Can anyone else second this?

 

EDIT:

Would this be like Cerebro (X-Men), but as a power at a smaller scale (local rather than global). Similar as what Prof. X/Emma/Jean/Any Other Mentalist use.

 

Just want to make sure I am understanding this right.

[Xotl]

Re: N-Ray with Senses having the opposite effect?

 

You could assign Mental Defense as the block. Since Mental Defense is more or less a "block" against other mental powers. And while you are buying it as a sense' date=' the SFX is more or less mental based.[/quote']

 

This isn't quite what I want, as I want to be able to recognize minds and distinguish one from another. The character is meant to hunt other mentalists, so MD blocking it would ruin the concept. If I had to pick something that would block it, I'd say anything that provides external MD (Force Field, Force Wall, building with MD built into it somehow).

 

Would this be like Cerebro (X-Men), but as a power at a smaller scale (local rather than global). Similar as what Prof. X/Emma/Jean/Any Other Mentalist use.

 

Just want to make sure I am understanding this right.

 

I'm honestly not sure - I must be one of the few Champions players that doesn't like superhero comics. It would just be the ability tell one mind from another and pick them out regardless of physical objects in between. It does seem like a fairly common effect though, as mental effects go. I intend it as a replacement for Mind Scan - more finely detailed, but definitely not global in scope.

[Beast]

Re: N-Ray with Senses having the opposite effect?

 

I would go with

N-ray vision(mental as the sense group)

then have those with mental defense as not being visible to you(maybe add force fields and walls)

from what I have seen in the rules is you need n-ray to see through objects

you will need to add targeting if it based on any sense other than sight if you don't want to have a non targeting sense roll

you will also need discriminatory and analyze to tell people apart

 

N-Ray Perception (Mental Group), Discriminatory, Analyze, Increased Arc Of Perception (360 Degrees), Sense, Targeting

[TheDux]

Re: N-Ray with Senses having the opposite effect?

 

I'm honestly not sure - I must be one of the few Champions players that doesn't like superhero comics. It would just be the ability tell one mind from another and pick them out regardless of physical objects in between. It does seem like a fairly common effect though, as mental effects go. I intend it as a replacement for Mind Scan - more finely detailed, but definitely not global in scope.

 

Strangely enough, I have seen many HERO players who are not into any related genre at all (except maybe Fantasy) but play Champions, ect. Guy at my comic/game shop doesn't read comics but is a gaming guru.

 

Anyway, yeah thats how cerebro works more or less. It is a large machine that enhances a telepath's power so that they can locate others around the globe. Mostly used to locate mutants, but Sapians can be found just as well.

 

External MD would work. Wish I could give you more insight about your other issues.

 

EDIT:

 

What beast said

[Hyper-Man]

Re: N-Ray with Senses having the opposite effect?

 

Actually, even N-Ray is just a specific instance of Detect so why not just use that as a base to start with?

 

23 Detect Minds: Detect A Class Of Things 11- (Mental Group), Discriminatory, Analyze, Increased Arc Of Perception (360 Degrees), Rapid: x10, Sense, Targeting (35 Active Points); Limited Power Every 2 points of Mental Defense a target has reduces perception roll by -1 (-1/2)

 

(This build assumes a 10 INT character)

 

Detects are not normally stopped by barriers (think metal detectors). Just think of this build as a short range version of a Mind Scan 'lock' that other powers (mental or otherwise) can be targeted with.

[Markdoc]

Re: N-Ray with Senses having the opposite effect?

 

As a matter of interest, why not use mindscan? What you describe is essentially what it does.

 

cheers, Mark

[Sean Waters]

Re: N-Ray with Senses having the opposite effect?

 

Marcdoc makes a good point, but Mindscan does something slightly different - it enables you to find a specific mind. Of course you can do that with a straight detect but the primary purpose of the detect is to 'see' people by their minds.

 

HyperMan's build is an ideal template of an unusual sense (but it needs 'range'). I'd do a reasonably basic targeting sense like this:

 

Detect A Class Of Things 11- (Unusual Group), Range, Sense, Targeting 22 points. 'Discriminatory' at 5 points is a good option if you want more than an Aliens style 'motion detector' and 360 degree perception is cheap at 5 points and 'rapid' will allow you to spot specific targets quickly in a crowd.

 

The rules are not at all clear as to what stops a sense, but I'd argue that it is self evident that SOMETHING has to and that, as a base, whatever stops the sense should be reasonable common.

 

'N Ray Vision' itself is built as a detect rather than an adder, and it is one of my biggest gripes with the excellent 'senses' system in Hero.

 

Ultimately if you build a sense that is not 'sense linked' to existing senses,t hen what stops of degrades the perception of that sense is a matter of negotiation between you and your GM.

 

I personally would not allow simply 'Mental Defence imposes a penalty' as it is in no way commensurate with other senses and what stops them. Ulrimately you are probably not dectecting 'Minds', but some characteristic of minds, such as an electrical or magnetic field, or even psionic energy, which you are tuned to recognise a s a 'mind' i.e. the basic detect is NOT 'minds' but whatever the mind emits that you are recognising.

 

If, for instance, you are detecting electric of magnetic fields, I would suggest that other sources of electrical or magnetic energy would interfere: you probably could not detect through some force fields or power armours, and electricity cables act as areas of deep shadow to your senses.

 

If you are detecting psionic energy then the GM needs to decide what else generates psionic energy, and the main answer is probably other people*. That would mean that minds themselves block your ability to detect minds - at least if there are too many - and I'd build the detect based around that idea - perhaps building it with a limited form of range and telescopic: in a desert you might be able to detect a single human mind 10 miles away, but in a crowded appartment block your range might be down to 10 or 20 feet.

 

More than almost any other power you need to be very clear on sfx for detects - and you need to build the power appropriately.

 

 

 

*although for all I know 'psionic energy' might very well have a similar 'signature' to microwave energy or even gravity. Each would suggest a different build and application.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: N-Ray with Senses having the opposite effect?

 

 

HyperMan's build is an ideal template of an unusual sense (but it needs 'range'). I'd do a reasonably basic targeting sense like this:

 

 

Actually, my version is built as part of the Mental Group and gets 'Range' for free.

[Sean Waters]

Re: N-Ray with Senses having the opposite effect?

 

Actually' date=' my version is built as part of the [u']Mental Group[/u] and gets 'Range' for free.

 

Sorry, did not mean to imply there was anything wrong with the build - just saying it needs 'range' as a template for an unusual group detect.

[yamamura]

Re: N-Ray with Senses having the opposite effect?

 

I like Hyperman's version myself. I believe one should not use Detect as a way to do an end run around a character with Mental Defense. Most characters buy it with the idea of it protecting them against other psionist/mental detection. Before long you will have every character buying Invisibility to Mental Powers/Detects just so they feel their character has the protection they deem appropriate to their concept. After all psionists should be harder to find then the normal Joe on the street.

[Xotl]

Re: N-Ray with Senses having the opposite effect?

 

As a matter of interest' date=' why not use mindscan? What you describe is essentially what it does.[/quote']

 

I was avoiding the power build itself because I didn't want to derail, but it's come up enough so:

 

40 Points - Detect Minds: Detect A Class Of Things 17- (Mental Group), Sense, Discriminatory, Analyze, Increased Arc Of Perception (360 Degrees), Targeting, Telescopic +10; Active.

 

Outside the power the character has Rapid: x1,000 for Mental Group, Absolute Range Sense, Bump of Direction, and Eidetic Memory (only to remember minds and mental power signatures) (-1).

 

I didn't want to use Mind Scan because a) I wanted to play with something different, Mind Scan simply can't do some of the things that a properly-built Detect can, frustratingly enough, and c) as part of an attempt to limit some of the adventure-breaking aspects of a mental character I wanted to toss the ability to find anyone anywhere on the world (difficulty in actually doing this with average Mind Scan build noted).

 

As for concept, he's a mental bloodhound (minus the tracking part). I don't want innate Mental Defense to stop it because it ruins the concept - I see it as like buying Detect Armoured Vehicle but the Sense is stopped by PD. I don't want large numbers of minds to stop it (well, under 1,000 anyways), as that's part of the concept too, and why I paid for Rapid x 1,000. External MD and Mental Invisibility are fine as a blockers.

 

What would you the viewer at home do? Thanks for the feedback thus far.

 

EDIT: If we remember that N-Ray Perception is not a sense modifier but in fact its own sense, just another Detect build, and that even though it tries to achieve an absolute effect the rules state that it still should be stopped by something common, then it seems likely I should just assume that N-Ray's limitations are something that all Detects at a minimum must obey, which solves the issue for all Detects and removes the need to buy N-Ray separately at all. In other words, if the extreme example of "avoid all interferences" detect has those limitations, and it's built like any other detect, then it seems to stand to reason that every other detect ever made has, at a minimum, the same restriction.

[BobGreenwade]

Re: N-Ray with Senses having the opposite effect?

 

If you want a reasonably common material that blocks N-Ray Mental Sense, just say it's aluminum and tin. Everybody knows that works.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: N-Ray with Senses having the opposite effect?

 

If you want a reasonably common material that blocks N-Ray Mental Sense' date=' just say it's aluminum and tin. Everybody knows that works. [/quote']

I have Foiled your plan, evil mentalist!

[Xotl]

Re: N-Ray with Senses having the opposite effect?

 

If you want a reasonably common material that blocks N-Ray Mental Sense' date=' just say it's aluminum and tin. Everybody knows that works. [/quote']

 

Hah! If this were the right kind of game I'd do that in a heartbeat.

 

Also, added edit with some ideas to bottom of previous post.

[Sean Waters]

Re: N-Ray with Senses having the opposite effect?

 

Double post - deleted

[Sean Waters]

Re: N-Ray with Senses having the opposite effect?

 

I like Hyperman's version myself. I believe one should not use Detect as a way to do an end run around a character with Mental Defense. Most characters buy it with the idea of it protecting them against other psionist/mental detection. Before long you will have every character buying Invisibility to Mental Powers/Detects just so they feel their character has the protection they deem appropriate to their concept. After all psionists should be harder to find then the normal Joe on the street.

 

I think that any 'defence' or blocking material/ability for a senses should be, as an absolute minimum, as common as those suggested for N-Ray vision: you mist define one or more reasonably common substances that you can not perceive through.

 

In most games I'd suggest that mental defence is probably not common enough to count, but that is a campaign decision AND the suggested application is that mental defence is not to 'block' the sense, but to restrict it, which I do not think is enough.

 

I may have got the wrong end of the stick about that - there may be something else intended to block the sense and that is just an additional limitation - but we need to know what blocks it if that is the case. If I have got it straight, it should not be a limitation - having something reasonably common block the sense is a requirement of enhanced senses - assuming N-Ray vision in the apex of unimpeded perception.

 

In 6th ed I'd like to see this nailed down, with 'n-ray' type senses done with adders -

 

All senses are blocked or attenuated by common substances or conditions defined when the sense is built. With an N-Ray adder, fewer substances or conditions block or attenuate the sense.

 

For +5 for a sense group or +3 for a single sense, the sense is only blocked or attenuated by uncommon substances or conditions or a specific sfx.

 

For +10 for a sense group or +5 for a single sense, the sense is only blocked or attenuated by the thing that is detected.

 

NB The thing detected always makes it more difficult to detect: if you are in a cave with a lot of gold in the floor and walls, it is harder to spot a large or specific deposit of gold than if it was the only gold in the cave.

 

Also note that 'darkness' is NOT a blocking substance or condition - it is an absence of what is actually being detected, so N-Ray vision does NOT give the the ability to see in the dark. For that you generally need to be able to detect lower intensities, which is dealt with by a seperate adder, rather than additional levels as we currently do it.

[Sean Waters]

Re: N-Ray with Senses having the opposite effect?

 

I was avoiding the power build itself because I didn't want to derail, but it's come up enough so:

 

40 Points - Detect Minds: Detect A Class Of Things 17- (Mental Group), Sense, Discriminatory, Analyze, Increased Arc Of Perception (360 Degrees), Targeting, Telescopic +10; Active.

 

Outside the power the character has Rapid: x1,000 for Mental Group, Absolute Range Sense, Bump of Direction, and Eidetic Memory (only to remember minds and mental power signatures) (-1).

 

I didn't want to use Mind Scan because a) I wanted to play with something different, Mind Scan simply can't do some of the things that a properly-built Detect can, frustratingly enough, and c) as part of an attempt to limit some of the adventure-breaking aspects of a mental character I wanted to toss the ability to find anyone anywhere on the world (difficulty in actually doing this with average Mind Scan build noted).

 

As for concept, he's a mental bloodhound (minus the tracking part). I don't want innate Mental Defense to stop it because it ruins the concept - I see it as like buying Detect Armoured Vehicle but the Sense is stopped by PD. I don't want large numbers of minds to stop it (well, under 1,000 anyways), as that's part of the concept too, and why I paid for Rapid x 1,000. External MD and Mental Invisibility are fine as a blockers.

 

What would you the viewer at home do? Thanks for the feedback thus far.

 

EDIT: If we remember that N-Ray Perception is not a sense modifier but in fact its own sense, just another Detect build, and that even though it tries to achieve an absolute effect the rules state that it still should be stopped by something common, then it seems likely I should just assume that N-Ray's limitations are something that all Detects at a minimum must obey, which solves the issue for all Detects and removes the need to buy N-Ray separately at all. In other words, if the extreme example of "avoid all interferences" detect has those limitations, and it's built like any other detect, then it seems to stand to reason that every other detect ever made has, at a minimum, the same restriction.

 

If this is a character I'd be wary as a GM if there is supposed to be any kind of mystery to the scenario.

 

Anyway - start by defining what it is the character detects. He's not detecting 'minds' because minds don't emit 'mind' waves. Either he is detecting something that minds DO emit, or he is sending out a pulse of something that minds reflect and picking up the echo. You can make stuff up, of course, it can be psionic energy if you like.

 

As an example think of normal sight - you do not detect houses, people, dogs and other physical objects with sight - you detect light in the visual spectrum and make assumptions about that data which allows you to 'see' houses, people and dogs.

 

THEN you know what he is detecting, you will probably have a clear idea of how it can be blocked.

 

It sounds to me you don't WANT a sense that can be blocked, which is a bit of an absolute and so anathema to Heroes everywhere . Well, if I was GM, and I was pretty drunk, I'd let you tack on the advantage 'indirect'. it would notnecessarily solve all your problems but it would certainly let you get round quite a few of them (indirect - get round - get it?).

[Altasmurf]

Re: N-Ray with Senses having the opposite effect?

 

If this is a character I'd be wary as a GM if there is supposed to be any kind of mystery to the scenario.

 

Anyway - start by defining what it is the character detects. He's not detecting 'minds' because minds don't emit 'mind' waves. Either he is detecting something that minds DO emit, or he is sending out a pulse of something that minds reflect and picking up the echo. You can make stuff up, of course, it can be psionic energy if you like.

 

As an example think of normal sight - you do not detect houses, people, dogs and other physical objects with sight - you detect light in the visual spectrum and make assumptions about that data which allows you to 'see' houses, people and dogs.

 

THEN you know what he is detecting, you will probably have a clear idea of how it can be blocked.

 

It sounds to me you don't WANT a sense that can be blocked, which is a bit of an absolute and so anathema to Heroes everywhere . Well, if I was GM, and I was pretty drunk, I'd let you tack on the advantage 'indirect'. it would notnecessarily solve all your problems but it would certainly let you get round quite a few of them (indirect - get round - get it?).

 

As A player in the same game I thought I would chime in.

 

First the intention is not to get an unblockable sense, but rather have it blocked by something that fits concept. I mean if Xotl really wanted he could just say "gold" blocks and call it good, but that's not really all that interesting or in concept.

 

Second anything with N-ray is a mystery revealer unless GM fiat comes into play (turns out the house with the drug deal was painted with lead paint so your x-ray vision can't see through the house). IMHO it doesn't even matter what blocks the sense because the GM will either have it blocked or not. For me this boils down to the mechanics of the mental sense group, what actually stops the mental groups "Line of Sight".

 

Third (and not to pick on you Mr. Waters) you seem to be basing detects on "waves" and well that works for sight and sound, neither touch, taste, or smell are based on waves. You seem to be trying to over complicate senses by taking real life explanation for how a sense works and applying it to the champions worls, when real champion is as simple as vision works by you detect dog, you detect a house. Thus by saying you must detect "mind waves" or which ever wave you pick, you pigeon holing the detect power based on the real life example of only two senses.

 

The final hurdle for poor Xotl, is that our GM is not exactly up to date on the rules, and also doesn't really have a big interest in checking out our characters and figuring out how all of our powers work. So it's kind of up to us players to keep everyone in check.

 

Peace out

[Sean Waters]

Re: N-Ray with Senses having the opposite effect?

 

As A player in the same game I thought I would chime in.

 

First the intention is not to get an unblockable sense, but rather have it blocked by something that fits concept. I mean if Xotl really wanted he could just say "gold" blocks and call it good, but that's not really all that interesting or in concept.

 

Absolutely - which is why you need to know what it is you are detecting before you can logically decide what stops you detecting it.

 

Second anything with N-ray is a mystery revealer unless GM fiat comes into play (turns out the house with the drug deal was painted with lead paint so your x-ray vision can't see through the house). IMHO it doesn't even matter what blocks the sense because the GM will either have it blocked or not. For me this boils down to the mechanics of the mental sense group' date=' what actually stops the mental groups "Line of Sight".[/quote']

 

Whilst I agree to an extent, it is a matter of degree: we are talking here about someone who wants to be able to keep track of 1000 targets out to about a 1/4 of a km radius without a PER penalty. That's a little tastier than being able to see into the next room, and has far more potential to disrupt the game, but if everyone is happy then fair enough.

 

This is more like a mobile Cerebro - and even that was plot deviced out of the way more often than not. I would not want a player to spend a lot of points on a power I intended to constantly nerf.

 

Third (and not to pick on you Mr. Waters) you seem to be basing detects on "waves" and well that works for sight and sound, neither touch, taste, or smell are based on waves. You seem to be trying to over complicate senses by taking real life explanation for how a sense works and applying it to the champions worls, when real champion is as simple as vision works by you detect dog, you detect a house. Thus by saying you must detect "mind waves" or which ever wave you pick, you pigeon holing the detect power based on the real life example of only two senses.

 

The final hurdle for poor Xotl, is that our GM is not exactly up to date on the rules, and also doesn't really have a big interest in checking out our characters and figuring out how all of our powers work. So it's kind of up to us players to keep everyone in check.

 

Peace out

 

I don't see it as overcomplication, I see it as clarification. Normal human senses detect EMR in the visual and IR spectrums, temperature, pressure and pressure changes, certain chemicals and mass. Not all of those are waves - most are not - I use 'waves' as a generic term - innaccurately, I conceed.

 

Similarly the first thing I as a GM would want to know about a sense in NOT what information you derive from it, but what it is actually picking up on, which is a matter of the physics and cosmology of your game.

 

If it picks up on psionic energy then anything that blocks psionic energy, or can overload or disrupt it is likely to block the sense. If it is something else, well, ditto. You can make this stuff up, but once you have, it becomes part of the game world.

 

Is he detecting the meat or the 'spirit' or the electrical activity or what?

 

A player does not HAVE to make these decisions about how a character's power works, but if he doesn't the GM eventually will. If the intention is to not have the power work when it would spoil the story then I'd simply say that the power tends not to work well, or at all, when there is substantial neutrino activity - something about the increased cosmic radiation interfering with either whatever is being sensed or the detector. That gives a nice random 'sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't' feel and I might let the player buy it with a 'limited power' limitation if I intended to nerf it a lot, or actually nerfed it a lot in practice.