TASER Rounds

[Greywind]

You definitely don’t want to be on the business end of one of these! Here is an excerpt from their site -Introducing the TASER XREP – the eXtended Range Electronic Projectile. XREP is a self-contained, wireless projectile that fires from a standard 12-gauge shotgun. It delivers the same Neuro-Muscular Incapacitation (NMI) bio-effect as our handheld TASER X26, but can be delivered to a distance of up to 100 feet, combining blunt impact with field proven TASER NMI.

The core technology that made the XREP possible is the XREP engine. A stunning engineering achievement, the XREP Engine provides the same bio-effect as our field proven X26, but from an electronics package that weighs only 2.4 grams and consumes less than one tenth of a cubic inch. In order to achieve a wireless projectile, the battery is fully integrated into the chassis and autonomously provides the power to drive the XREP engine for its full 20-second cycle.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: TASER Rounds

 

... A stunning engineering achievement' date=' the XREP Engine provides the same bio-effect as our field proven X26, but from an electronics package that weighs only 2.4 grams and consumes less than one tenth of a cubic inch. In order to achieve a wireless projectile, the battery is fully integrated into the chassis and autonomously provides the power to drive the XREP engine for its full 20-second cycle.[/quote']

 

Based on the text, here is one way to model it in HERO:

 

20 Tazer Round Loaded Shotgun: Suppress STUN 8d6 (standard effect: 24 points), 8 Continuing Charges lasting 1 Turn each (+0), Sticky (+1/2) (60 Active Points); OAF (Shotgun; -1), Can Be Missile Deflected (-1/4), Real Weapon (-1/4), Physical Manifestation (Shell sticking to victim; -1/4), Limited Range (Shell must hit target with enough velocity to stick to clothes or skin [There is no damage from impact]; -1/4) - END=[8 cc]

 

Certainly enough to bring down a normal with one round.

 

HM

[Greywind]

Re: TASER Rounds

 

I think you missed the "combining blunt impact with..." part of that...

[Hyper-Man]

Re: TASER Rounds

 

I think you missed the "combining blunt impact with..." part of that...

 

It can't be very much, probably not as much as some 'rubber bullets' or 'bean-bag' rounds. The primary design focus of these weapons is non-lethality and even a relatively 'normal' EB of 2d6 could potentially do 2 BODY to a normal human. I'd argue that most PC's or NPC's of note would ignore the impact aspect.

[Greywind]

Re: TASER Rounds

 

Even rubber bullets can kill...

[Ragnarok]

Re: TASER Rounds

 

Even rubber bullets can kill...

 

I have to agree with Greywind on this. Catch a headshot from a rubber bullet and you're in serious trouble, not to mention what it would do on a 13 hit location....

[fbdaury]

Re: TASER Rounds

 

Uhm sorry, color me strange but I've never understood doing the Taser affect as just NND, let alone as a Stun drain- as I stated it in my char Grey Hood, I would make it a NND/Does Body effect. Just because the main effect is to stun doesn't make it only stun damage- every muscle in your body locks up uncontrollably at the same time- that sounds llke some Body damage to me- maybe a special limitation of like -1/4 or -1/2 for half the usual body damage so that the round is not too lethal but I think some Body damage should be taken by the target- people have died from Taser rounds, generally from multiple rounds, but still.

 

PS: This is the round they've been using lately on Heroes, is it not

?

[Hyper-Man]

Re: TASER Rounds

 

Uhm sorry, color me strange but I've never understood doing the Taser affect as just NND, let alone as a Stun drain- as I stated it in my char Grey Hood, I would make it a NND/Does Body effect. Just because the main effect is to stun doesn't make it only stun damage- every muscle in your body locks up uncontrollably at the same time- that sounds llke some Body damage to me- maybe a special limitation of like -1/4 or -1/2 for half the usual body damage so that the round is not too lethal but I think some Body damage should be taken by the target- people have died from Taser rounds, generally from multiple rounds, but still.

 

PS: This is the round they've been using lately on Heroes, is it not

?

 

Why should I pay for an effect that is counter to the intent of the weapon? This weapon is implicitely intended to be a NON-lethal attack. Accidental death from it's use could easily be explained by risk factors in the victims (heart issues, high blood pressure, etc..).

 

based on http://www.taser.com

 

here's an update:

 

20 Tazer Round Loaded Shotgun: Suppress STUN 8d6 (standard effect: 24 points), [DEX & STUN] simultaneously (+1/2), 8 Continuing Charges lasting 1 Turn each (+0) (60 Active Points); OAF (Shotgun; -1), Can Be Missile Deflected (-1/4), Real Weapon (-1/4), Physical Manifestation (Shell sticking to victim; -1/4), Limited Range (Shell must hit target with enough velocity to stick to clothes or skin [There is no damage from impact]; -1/4)

[Notes: from 5er page 36, Negative Dexterity - At DEX 1 or less, a character is CV 0. A character with negative DEX loses control over his reactions, and must succeed with DEX Rolls to perform any Actions requiring physical movement (even just aiming at a target, or making Gestures). If he fails the DEX Roll, he cannot perform the Action that Phase. Characters with a DEX of -30 (or minus their initial DEX value, whichever is better for the character) or less may take no physical actions.] - END=[8 cc]

 

2-3 hits by this round will bring down most supers (unless they have some Power Defense).

[fbdaury]

Re: TASER Rounds

 

Why should I pay for an effect that is counter to the intent of the weapon? This weapon is implicitely intended to be a NON-lethal attack. Accidental death from it's use could easily be explained by risk factors in the victims (heart issues, high blood pressure, etc..).

 

 

While I never argued that the Taser is outright lethal, and mentioned that most fatailities from it are due to improper usage- such as Tasing someone over 50 times (OUCH!), the fact is that the intent of the weapon, as you put it, doe not mater in comparison to its effect: If I dropped a brick off a building to get someone's attention and that brick instead hits and kills them (I have little to no depth perception after all), then my intent to simply get their attention does not matter- the actual effect of what I've done is what would matter.

 

Same applies with the Taser- it may be considered Non-lethal but that doesn't mean it isn't capable of doing lasting phyical damage to a target, hence Body damage. If you don't want to pay points for that effect, that's fine- call your weapon a stun round or something but don't pass it off as something it isn't- an accurate representation of the effects of a Taser.

 

Also, using Suppress for the effect seems pretty suspicious- like you were unwilling to pay for Ranged drain and are trying to backdoor your way into the same effect. But that`s just my opinion, YMMV.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: TASER Rounds

 

While I never argued that the Taser is outright lethal, and mentioned that most fatailities from it are due to improper usage- such as Tasing someone over 50 times (OUCH!), the fact is that the intent of the weapon, as you put it, doe not mater in comparison to its effect: If I dropped a brick off a building to get someone's attention and that brick instead hits and kills them (I have little to no depth perception after all), then my intent to simply get their attention does not matter- the actual effect of what I've done is what would matter.

 

Same applies with the Taser- it may be considered Non-lethal but that doesn't mean it isn't capable of doing lasting phyical damage to a target, hence Body damage. If you don't want to pay points for that effect, that's fine- call your weapon a stun round or something but don't pass it off as something it isn't- an accurate representation of the effects of a Taser.

 

Also, using Suppress for the effect seems pretty suspicious- like you were unwilling to pay for Ranged drain and are trying to backdoor your way into the same effect. But that`s just my opinion, YMMV.

 

 

Using a NND Choke Hold can be lethal if used for too long. I see no major difference in its use and a Taser. I put forth a possible interpretation. If you have a problem with it that's fine. I haven't seen you or anyone else posting any alternatives. I've seen several videos of people voluntarily being tasered and they are completely imobilized while the current is flowing. As soon as it stops they have absolutely no lingering after effects. That seems like a perfect fit for Suppress to me.

[sinanju]

Re: TASER Rounds

 

Based on the text, here is one way to model it in HERO:

 

20 Tazer Round Loaded Shotgun: Suppress STUN 8d6 (standard effect: 24 points), 8 Continuing Charges lasting 1 Turn each (+0), Sticky (+1/2) (60 Active Points); OAF (Shotgun; -1), Can Be Missile Deflected (-1/4), Real Weapon (-1/4), Physical Manifestation (Shell sticking to victim; -1/4), Limited Range (Shell must hit target with enough velocity to stick to clothes or skin [There is no damage from impact]; -1/4) - END=[8 cc]

 

Certainly enough to bring down a normal with one round.

 

HM

 

Hmmm. Based on conversations with a friend who uses tasers (and has had them used on him--departmental policy) and on seeing a tv demonstration of this weapon...I think maybe a Entangle attack would be better.

 

The Taser locks up your muscles so you can't move and fall down. But as soon as the effect ends, you're able to move again. It's very painful (which is why most people don't want to be tazed again and therefore comply with directions), but you CAN move. Particularly psychotic or drugged individuals sometimes respond violently as soon as they can move again, too out-of-touch with the reality of the situation to take heed.

 

Also, handheld tasers (including tazer guns) generate about a six-second cycle. This shell zaps you for 20 (I heard 30 on the tv demo) full seconds--to give the user time to reach the target and disarm/cuff him before he can react again.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: TASER Rounds

 

Hmmm. Based on conversations with a friend who uses tasers (and has had them used on him--departmental policy) and on seeing a tv demonstration of this weapon...I think maybe a Entangle attack would be better.

 

The Taser locks up your muscles so you can't move and fall down. But as soon as the effect ends, you're able to move again. It's very painful (which is why most people don't want to be tazed again and therefore comply with directions), but you CAN move. Particularly psychotic or drugged individuals sometimes respond violently as soon as they can move again, too out-of-touch with the reality of the situation to take heed.

 

Also, handheld tasers (including tazer guns) generate about a six-second cycle. This shell zaps you for 20 (I heard 30 on the tv demo) full seconds--to give the user time to reach the target and disarm/cuff him before he can react again.

 

 

I'm confused. You seem to be contradicting your own statement?

 

Suppress seems like the perfect mechanic to represent the description.

 

Entangle and the methods to break out of it seems like an even clunkier mechanic to use.

[fbdaury]

Re: TASER Rounds

 

Using a NND Choke Hold can be lethal if used for too long. I see no major difference in its use and a Taser. I put forth a possible interpretation. If you have a problem with it that's fine. I haven't seen you or anyone else posting any alternatives. I've seen several videos of people voluntarily being tasered and they are completely imobilized while the current is flowing. As soon as it stops they have absolutely no lingering after effects. That seems like a perfect fit for Suppress to me.

 

Right, a choke hold can be lethal, if you choke someone to 0 stun and then keep going (is stun rollover still in the system?) but cutting off someone's oxygen is a slower dangerous effect than putting 50,000 volts into them and causing every muscle in their body to painfully lock up.

 

As for alternative for taser round, using Sinanju's suggestion, here's a rough idea:

4d6 def 4 entangle vs. End instead of Str(+1/2), entangle takes no physical damage (+1/4), cannot be teleported out of (+1/4), cannot form barriers (-1/4) , ends after 30 seconds if not already broken (-1/4) plus 2d6 NND (defense is fully body rEd coverage, +1) Does Body (+1); Oaf (-1) real weapon (-1/4), 8 charges (-1/2) Active/Real: 110 points/ 36 points

[fbdaury]

Re: TASER Rounds

 

I'm confused. You seem to be contradicting your own statement?

 

Suppress seems like the perfect mechanic to represent the description.

 

Entangle and the methods to break out of it seems like an even clunkier mechanic to use.

 

Not if you link the entangle to a small NND does body attack to reflect both the immobilization and damge done. Your effect does no damage to target at all and the victim is completly fine after 12 seconds with absolutely no detrimental effects at all- that is not how a Taser works.

[Toadmaster]

Re: TASER Rounds

 

Why should I pay for an effect that is counter to the intent of the weapon? This weapon is implicitely intended to be a NON-lethal attack.

 

Right there is your problem, tasers are called less than lethal, not non-lethal specifically because they can and have resulted in deaths.

 

Suppress and Entangle do seem like good alternatives to an energy attack. They basically work on a pain response which is why drugged out people have been known to ignore the taser. They do not seem to have a lingering effect which reduces their value for lone officers, much better if there is someone ready to slap cuffs on them as soon as the power stops.

 

While I could go with an NND for a regular taser I would strongly consider some normal attack for a shotgun launched version, the impact and those spikes have some pretty serious potential for minor to moderate injury. I'm sure getting hit in the face or groin could really ruin your day.

[fbdaury]

Re: TASER Rounds

 

Right there is your problem, tasers are called less than lethal, not non-lethal specifically because they can and have resulted in deaths.

 

Suppress and Entangle do seem like good alternatives to an energy attack. They basically work on a pain response which is why drugged out people have been known to ignore the taser. They do not seem to have a lingering effect which reduces their value for lone officers, much better if there is someone ready to slap cuffs on them as soon as the power stops.

 

While I could go with an NND for a regular taser I would strongly consider some normal attack for a shotgun launched version, the impact and those spikes have some pretty serious potential for minor to moderate injury. I'm sure getting hit in the face or groin could really ruin your day.

 

Except that Suppress is nothing like an energy blast- as soon as it ends, the effects are immdeiately undone and the target is 100% fine, this doesn't adequately seem to model a painful attack at all, at least not IMO.

[Toadmaster]

Re: TASER Rounds

 

Except that Suppress is nothing like an energy blast- as soon as it ends' date=' the effects are immdeiately undone and the target is 100% fine, this doesn't adequately seem to model a painful attack at all, at least not IMO.[/quote']

 

Not saying suppress would be the best route, just that I could see an argument for it. Suppress is kind of the opposite extreme from EB where you could fairly easily knock the person unconscious which isn't really accurate either.

 

Personally I think the most accurate solution would be a combination of attacks but that gets expensive. Also need to include area effect, only vs targets touching the primary target.

[fbdaury]

Re: TASER Rounds

 

Not saying suppress would be the best route, just that I could see an argument for it. Suppress is kind of the opposite extreme from EB where you could fairly easily knock the person unconscious which isn't really accurate either.

 

Personally I think the most accurate solution would be a combination of attacks but that gets expensive. Also need to include area effect, only vs targets touching the primary target.

 

Sounds lke Sticky to me...

[Doctor Agenda]

Re: TASER Rounds

 

Right, a choke hold can be lethal, if you choke someone to 0 stun and then keep going (is stun rollover still in the system?) but cutting off someone's oxygen is a slower dangerous effect than putting 50,000 volts into them and causing every muscle in their body to painfully lock up.

 

As for alternative for taser round, using Sinanju's suggestion, here's a rough idea:

4d6 def 4 entangle vs. End instead of Str(+1/2), entangle takes no physical damage (+1/4), cannot be teleported out of (+1/4), cannot form barriers (-1/4) , ends after 30 seconds if not already broken (-1/4) plus 2d6 NND (defense is fully body rEd coverage, +1) Does Body (+1); Oaf (-1) real weapon (-1/4), 8 charges (-1/2) Active/Real: 110 points/ 36 points

 

About 5 shots from this weapon would reliably kill the average person unless they got immediate treatment. What's the treatment for 'over-tazing' anyway? Four shots and Joe Average is dangerously low on Body and will probably take two months to fully recover. This thing is probably ten times as lethal as a real tazer. Maybe it should just have a limitation, like 'may cause heart attacks or other complications in subjects with medical problems'.

[Greywind]

Re: TASER Rounds

 

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,510078,00.html

 

Michigan teen dies after being tasered.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: TASER Rounds

 

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,510078,00.html

 

Michigan teen dies after being tasered.

 

That is sad.

 

 

 

However, I think it just represents that not all people react to electricity the same. The teen could just be more sensitive to it in a manner similar to people allergic to peanuts, cat hair, dairy products, etc... . It is not a compelling argument to design the possibility of permanent (BODY) damage into the game simulation of the weapon. It's like charging more points for a 'silver' weapon in a game with Vampires. It's not a power advantage of the weapon, it's a vulnerability/suseptibility of vampires.