Shadow Angelus

[Susano]

Re: Shadow Angelus

 

It's also possible everyone identifies RHO with clades, even if there's thousands of normal humans there as well.

[Eosin]

Re: Shadow Angelus

 

I agree. If Clades are sterile then where in the heck did the multitudes come from? I could guess that various megacorps are still creating them but it seems a little hard to believe that

 

My original idea would work but I tend to think Susano is right in that the corps would try to ensure sterility. So, we just need a way for them to have bypassed that... If they did it 20-30 years ago there should be no problem with largish numbers of clades running around Rho demanding freedom and equality.

 

How about a clade revolt that resulted in a few thousand escaping. Since then they've freed clade slaves all around the world in an underground railroad sorta way. The freed clades wind up in Angelus because they are hard to track and Angelus has issue with forcible deportation (even of clades). You'd end up with several thousand (40-50) free clades in Angelus most of them living in Rho Sector.

 

They were likely sterilized with a minor surgical procedure which is very reversible.

 

If I may interject...

 

Maybe you're overthinking this. It's sort of how you don't question the technological advances in K5 even though we're only talking about 20-30 years into the future.

 

They're there because the genre expects them to be there. Provide a passable explanation for it to happen then move on.

 

Spend too much time looking behind the curtain and the whole illusion falls apart.

 

Sound advice. However, I am an overthinker which is why I've sank a huge amount of time figuring out how all this stuff might plausibly work (food, energy, population, City Sectors, travel, etc...). It isn't enough to pass a peer-review but the lines are mostly painted over so that the seams don't just explode in your face.

 

It is my own curse that I cannot play in a game that doesn't have some semblance of trying to make things jive. I spend more time thinking about the setting flaws than I do on my character or the plot.

[Susano]

Re: Shadow Angelus

 

My original idea would work but I tend to think Susano is right in that the corps would try to ensure sterility. So, we just need a way for them to have bypassed that... If they did it 20-30 years ago there should be no problem with largish numbers of clades running around Rho demanding freedom and equality.

 

How about a clade revolt that resulted in a few thousand escaping. Since then they've freed clade slaves all around the world in an underground railroad sorta way. The freed clades wind up in Angelus because they are hard to track and Angelus has issue with forcible deportation (even of clades). You'd end up with several thousand (40-50) free clades in Angelus most of them living in Rho Sector.

 

They were likely sterilized with a minor surgical procedure which is very reversible.

 

That works for me. Also, XSWAT is rather accepting of clade officers (this was true even in SA I).

[Susano]

Re: Shadow Angelus

 

If I may interject...

 

Maybe you're overthinking this. It's sort of how you don't question the technological advances in K5 even though we're only talking about 20-30 years into the future.

 

My intro to the source book even lampshades this. My argument is you don't watch Blade Runner asking where the anti-grav and replicants and off-world colonies came from, do you? You accept it's 2019 LA and move on.

 

I think this is one thing that worked for Ross's history-light style. We didn't ask where it all came from, we just accepted what he told us and ran with it.

 

So here, have a catgirl and run with it!

[Susano]

Re: Shadow Angelus

 

What unique abilities or properties would Clades have that would make the investment worth it?

 

In K5, replicates are grown to order and spec in about 6-8 months. You get a stronger, faster, and tougher specimen that's trained and indoctrinated with the skills and loyalty you desire. Replicates don't get sick, don't need to be paid, and don't need benefits. They also work harder and longer than regular humans.

 

You can wire up your employees with cyber to do the same, but that cost money and takes time. A clade might cost a bit more at first, but has less upkeep in the long run. Also, not all clades/replicates are STR 30, DEX 26 and so on. A lot of them are naturally talented normals (STR 13-15, DEX 13-15, CON 13-15, SPD 3, and so on) who don't get sick, need time off, or ask for raises.

[Edsel]

Re: Shadow Angelus

 

Yeah, I wanna keep the Clades. It's true that no one in our group has chosen to run one but there is no reason to limit the possibilities they can provide for the campaign.

 

I have pretty much given Eosin card blanche in the history and background as long as the end result is the campaign setting I want (pretty close to the original Angelus as presented in Susano's world book). I make an occasional ruling to change his proposed history to fit my needs but most of the background work is his. I figure it doesn't matter as much how we got there as long as the city is the setting that I want in the end.

 

I have been spending most of my time behind the scenes helping people design player characters for the game. I comment on proposed character histories and character designs and eventually we tweak them into characters that I feel will work for the campaign. We are getting there but there is still a lot of work to do.

[Susano]

Re: Shadow Angelus

 

For what it's worth, my clade PC:

 

[Eosin]

Re: Shadow Angelus

 

So, the Great Clade Revolt of '72 works to achieve the end result. It also solves the Clade vs Megadine issue since the Clades are now slightly more "free agent" than corporate asset. Some companies will still engineer them, some will kidnap them and force them into labor, some nations will have elite clade military units, but many will have given them up for more reliable megadines/bioroids. However, the genie is out of the bottle and clades are here to stay.

[Guest Major Tom]

Re: Shadow Angelus

 

What's next? A Cylon -- er, excuse me, Megadine Revolt?

 

BTW, is that supposed to be Megadine or Megadyne?

 

 

 

Major Tom

[Eosin]

Re: Shadow Angelus

 

What's next? A Cylon -- er, excuse me, Megadine Revolt?

 

BTW, is that supposed to be Megadine or Megadyne?

 

I prefer Replicant myself.

 

And there are several ways to take them. Appleseed with its utopic bioroids looking to make a better world... Bladerunner with Replicants searching for life and meaning. Terminator like models serving humanity while preparing to eradicate mankind. Bicentenial Man or Star Trek (Data) with robots seeking to become human. Cylon Skin job seeking the perfection of mechanism rather than the weakness of flesh. Cylon Skin jobs seeking to reproduce. Dozens of sources with skin jobs that don't know they are skin jobs.

 

I'd go with the following: the majority of androids are of the Bishop model - loyal and protective of mankind. Some unscrupulous corporations have created assassin and hunter killer type androids who perform impossible kills or no return missions (Terminators, Magna-Guards). A small number of androids fall into the other categories (looking for meaning, reproduction, to become human, to become machine, and so on) but this is an overall small number. Some significant androids might not follow all that is good and healthy at the urging of their masters they may enter and dominate the criminal underworld.

[Susano]

Re: Shadow Angelus

 

What's next? A Cylon -- er, excuse me, Megadine Revolt?

 

BTW, is that supposed to be Megadine or Megadyne?

 

 

 

Major Tom

 

It's Megadyne... they're replicants from the Silent Mobius series.

[Eosin]

Re: Shadow Angelus

 

Major Tom brought a salient point back to the table - the original argument of what purpose does element XX serve?

 

Here's my thoughts on the subject and a little bit of the guiding force behind design.

 

• Themes
  
• Cybernetics: the price of power.
  
• Clades: the struggle for equality.
  
• Genetic Alteration: the pursuit of perfection.
  
• Androids/Megadynes: search for meaning/ what makes one human?
  
• Espers: what is our future? What will man become?
  
• Wizardry: the power of the past. Unlocking the mysteries.
  
• Entities: fear of the unknown, forging ones own destiny.
  

 

Each "class" if you will comes with its own built in conflict. The city design -- I hope -- will reflect those themes. First, the skeleton has to come into place and then the fantastic can be infused.

[Steve]

Re: Shadow Angelus

 

Major Tom brought a salient point back to the table - the original argument of what purpose does element XX serve?

 

Here's my thoughts on the subject and a little bit of the guiding force behind design.

 

• Themes
  
• Clades: the struggle for equality.
  
• Androids/Megadynes: search for meaning/ what makes one human?
  
• Espers: what is our future? What will man become?
  

 

 

I've been following this thread with interest, and I had a few thoughts I wanted to throw out.

 

Clades could be used for the question of what makes one human as well. The replicant/genetic creation made in the form of man, but is it human? Where does one draw the line? Emotion? Are they close enough to human genetics that if their sterility was removed, hybridization with humans could occur?

 

The question on Espers could be broadened to mutant humans. Are espers the only types of mutations, or are there other non-psychic mutations taking place as well among humanity? What caused such a dramatic level of mutation? Could the entities have caused this somehow? If they've been pushing on the skin of reality for a while, maybe that stress on the fabric of reality had an effect on humanity. Maybe the esper mutation is like the world producing antibodies against an infection.

[Susano]

Re: Shadow Angelus

 

In K5 espers are the result of CIA/KGB et al experiments with ESP and the like. They started with people who could move paper clips, and after a lot of work with assorted drugs and the like, managed to dial the power level up to 11. Aside from psychic/psychokinetic powers, there are no other "mutants" in K5.

 

In Silent Mobius, magic use among humanity is due to human/entity cross-breeding in the distant past. Perhaps Merlin's demon father really was an entity?

 

And clades/replicated humans are perfect for the humanity angle. Chrysine (my PC from SA II) once asked if she had a soul, and was deeply concerned about it.

[Eosin]

Re: Shadow Angelus

 

I've been following this thread with interest' date=' and I had a few thoughts I wanted to throw out.[/quote']

 

Thanks for the thoughts. As Susano mentioned, the espers are the only real mutants and they were the product of genetics, drugs, genetic engineering, and other enhancement techniques. I like your idea on Espers and it was actually a way that I toyed with taking it but ultimately I'm building the city Edsel wants.

 

The issue is to balance out the niches so that everyone not only has their special ability but that each "class" also comes with some baggage. So, clades can certainly be concerned about their humanity but the overall theme of clades follows a more Mazlow-nian line: freedom and equality before enlightenment and self discovery. It could have went either way but we've already painted the clades as struggling with these issues and the setting demands certain numbers of clades requiring the revolt. Giving the androids a similar "equality struggle" taps the well twice so I taking them a different direction adds to the robustness of character types.

 

 

Caveat, this is a broad sweeping generalization not a discussion about any one individual. There may well be clades who are struggling to become closer to god and those trying pondering the price of power.

[Guest Major Tom]

Re: Shadow Angelus

 

I've been following this thread with interest, and I had a few thoughts I wanted to throw out.

 

Clades could be used for the question of what makes one human as well. The replicant/genetic creation made in the form of man, but is it human? Where does one draw the line? Emotion? Are they close enough to human genetics that if their sterility was removed, hybridization with humans could occur?

 

The question on Espers could be broadened to mutant humans. Are espers the only types of mutations, or are there other non-psychic mutations taking place as well among humanity? What caused such a dramatic level of mutation? Could the entities have caused this somehow? If they've been pushing on the skin of reality for a while, maybe that stress on the fabric of reality had an effect on humanity. Maybe the esper mutation is like the world producing antibodies against an infection.

 

 

With regards to the bit about antibodies: something similar was mentioned in

Silver Age Sentinels, about how the appearance of superhuman beings on

Earth could be likened to antibodies being produced by a body to protect itself --

and raising the question of just what kind of "disease" would require "antibodies"

of this kind of power to fight it?

 

 

 

Major Tom

[Eosin]

Re: Shadow Angelus

 

I mentioned some villains for Angelus to Susano in another thread.

 

Nero

Four years ago a new syndicate rose in Zeta Sector based under the charismatic leadership of a newcomer named Nero. Few gave the fresh faced young man the credit he deserved for his ruthlessness and savvy. Some say his smile is enchanting while his enemies say it is the smile of a shark on the hunt. Whatever the case, bodies began to pile up in high tech areas. Known criminals, informants, and even police officers were killed whenever they opposed Nero or those working for him.

 

Today, Nero controls much of the hightech crime in Zeta Sector working with cyberdocs and black markets to offer some of the hottest upgrades in cyberware. His men have extensive combat upgrades and many suspect Nero has dabbled in cyberware himself. Things have stabilized but police fear that Nero may simply be getting ready for another push to take over more territory. The organization also leases muscle to other criminal elements when more than guns are needed.

 

GMs Only

 

Nero is actually Ner-0, a megadyne. His push into the hightech and illegal cyberware markets are the tip of the iceberg for him. Ner-0 might work for a foreign government or a corporation. It is also possible that he is entirely independent. The big issue for him is that he might be able to control the cyber-implants that his doctors are giving on the black market. If so, he is a force to be reckoned with at any level.

 

 

Mr. Stitch

Mr. Stitch is a freak. Even in a city full of purple and white hair he stands out in a class of oddness all his own. Body modifications, scarification, and implants have altered his looks until he only vaguely resembles the young Latino of his youth. Santa Muerte and magic consumed him even before his body hit puberty. He sacrificed his first victims before he had kissed a girl. Mr. Stitch runs one of the most vile vice cartels in Rho Sector. His stable includes every twisted perversion that man can imagine if not for the pleasure of others then for himself. His clients include men and women from all stations whose fetishes stray into the illegal and immoral.

 

Mr. Stitch has held dominance for so long because of his connections to the Santa Muerete cults and because of his own dark wizardry. He prefers to avoid violence and combat which isn't hard since so few would willing engage a man who so obviously feels no pain. But one should not mistake him for a pushover, Mr. Stitch got his name for his skill with blades rather than his penchant for self mutilation.

 

GMs Only

 

Mr. Stitch runs a cult of ecstasy and is inspired a bit by Pinhead and Hellrazor. His magic is only moderately powerful but his dulled sensory ability and his lethal fighting style.

 

[Guest Major Tom]

Re: Shadow Angelus

 

I mentioned some villains for Angelus to Susano in another thread.

 

Nero

Four years ago a new syndicate rose in Zeta Sector based under the charismatic leadership of a newcomer named Nero. Few gave the fresh faced young man the credit he deserved for his ruthlessness and savvy. Some say his smile is enchanting while his enemies say it is the smile of a shark on the hunt. Whatever the case, bodies began to pile up in high tech areas. Known criminals, informants, and even police officers were killed whenever they opposed Nero or those working for him.

 

Today, Nero controls much of the hightech crime in Zeta Sector working with cyberdocs and black markets to offer some of the hottest upgrades in cyberware. His men have extensive combat upgrades and many suspect Nero has dabbled in cyberware himself. Things have stabilized but police fear that Nero may simply be getting ready for another push to take over more territory. The organization also leases muscle to other criminal elements when more than guns are needed.

 

GMs Only

 

Nero is actually Ner-0, a megadyne. His push into the hightech and illegal cyberware markets are the tip of the iceberg for him. Ner-0 might work for a foreign government or a corporation. It is also possible that he is entirely independent. The big issue for him is that he might be able to control the cyber-implants that his doctors are giving on the black market. If so, he is a force to be reckoned with at any level.

 

 

Mr. Stitch

Mr. Stitch is a freak. Even in a city full of purple and white hair he stands out in a class of oddness all his own. Body modifications, scarification, and implants have altered his looks until he only vaguely resembles the young Latino of his youth. Santa Muerte and magic consumed him even before his body hit puberty. He sacrificed his first victims before he had kissed a girl. Mr. Stitch runs one of the most vile vice cartels in Rho Sector. His stable includes every twisted perversion that man can imagine if not for the pleasure of others then for himself. His clients include men and women from all stations whose fetishes stray into the illegal and immoral.

 

Mr. Stitch has held dominance for so long because of his connections to the Santa Muerete cults and because of his own dark wizardry. He prefers to avoid violence and combat which isn't hard since so few would willing engage a man who so obviously feels no pain. But one should not mistake him for a pushover, Mr. Stitch got his name for his skill with blades rather than his penchant for self mutilation.

 

GMs Only

 

Mr. Stitch runs a cult of ecstasy and is inspired a bit by Pinhead and Hellrazor. His magic is only moderately powerful but his dulled sensory ability and his lethal fighting style.

 

 

I can just imagine the PCs being confronted with the following in Mr. Stitch's

den of iniquity:

 

"Shall we play?"

 

Spoken, of course, in a creepily sinister way...

 

 

 

 

Major Tom

[Susano]

Re: Shadow Angelus

 

When you say "megadyne" do you mean some sort of robot? Or a replicant/clade?

[Eosin]

Re: Shadow Angelus

 

Android.

[Susano]

Re: Shadow Angelus

 

The original SA didn't have self-aware androids... you sure you want to include them? This is also why there was never a debate between clades and cyberdroids/megadynes.

[Edsel]

Re: Shadow Angelus

 

The megadynes in Silent Mobius were Cyborgs. Some seemed more android than human but it was clearly stated a couple of times that they were cyborgs.

[Susano]

Re: Shadow Angelus

 

The megadynes in Silent Mobius were Cyborgs. Some seemed more android than human but it was clearly stated a couple of times that they were cyborgs.

 

In the anime maybe... in the manga (at least the Viz translation) they were equal to replicants, since mention was made of the megadyne revolt of 2019 in LA (). The artwork from later in the series makes them look like BGC boomers, though, meaning I figured they were some sort of robot.

 

Cyborg to me implies a modified human, unless they are starting with a clade base and then adding in cybernetics and other hardware to get what they need.

 

So... are megadynes modified humans? Modified clades? Or pure robots? Do you need megadynes if you have human cyborgs and clades?

[Eosin]

Re: Shadow Angelus

 

The megadynes in Silent Mobius were Cyborgs. Some seemed more android than human but it was clearly stated a couple of times that they were cyborgs.

 

I got that Wire and the 200 megadynes were pure machine. Kiddy, who wasn't in their league, was an upgraded human who called herself a megadyne but she had a human brain (and maybe more). She was never in Wire's league.

 

In the anime maybe... in the manga (at least the Viv translation) they were equal to replicants, since mention was made of the megadyne revolt of 2019 in LA (). The artwork from later in the series makes them look like BGC boomers, though, meaning I figured they were some sort of robot.

 

Cyborg to me implies a modified human, unless they are starting with a clade base and then adding in cybernetics and other hardware to get what they need.

 

So... are megadynes modified humans? Modified clades? Or pure robots? Do you need megadynes if you have human cyborgs and clades?

 

I changed the term here to "android" because other words are fuzzy. We all know Android and I'd wager that most of us know Replicant. I think they are a staple of this type of fiction and generally speaking far cooler than clades. After all, Roy Batty is the best character evar! and Bishop isn't far behind. Data is cooler than beans. The Gunslinger (Westworld for the very young) is OMG awesome. Asomov's Giskard dang near invented the trope. The Terminator, who can live without Terminators? You could run a whole campaign with skin job Cylons and I won't even talk about what we could do with Six.

 

I can see where clades and androids overlap. Heck, that is why I themed everyone up above so that they felt distinct instead of a different brand white bread. I'll just quote it for easy reference.

 

Major Tom brought a salient point back to the table - the original argument of what purpose does element XX serve?

 

Here's my thoughts on the subject and a little bit of the guiding force behind design.

 

• Themes
  
• Cybernetics: the price of power.
  
• Clades: the struggle for equality.
  
• Genetic Alteration: the pursuit of perfection.
  
• Androids/Megadynes: search for meaning/ what makes one human?
  
• Espers: what is our future? What will man become?
  
• Wizardry: the power of the past. Unlocking the mysteries.
  
• Entities: fear of the unknown, forging ones own destiny.
  

 

Each "class" if you will comes with its own built in conflict. The city design -- I hope -- will reflect those themes. First, the skeleton has to come into place and then the fantastic can be infused.

[Susano]

Re: Shadow Angelus

 

I got that Wire and the 200 megadynes were pure machine. Kiddy' date=' who wasn't in their league, was an upgraded human who called herself a megadyne but she had a human brain (and maybe more). She was never in Wire's league.[/quote']

 

Kiddy used to be a regular cop... her unit was killed by Wire and she survived only by getting a cybergraft upgrade, meaning she felt she had become like Wire in order to defeat him. I don't recall her calling herself a megadyne... but then I still haven't watched all of the anime.

 

I'm pretty sure she's human in head and torso, with an armor-plated body and cybernetic limbs.

 

 

I changed the term here to "android" because other words are fuzzy. We all know Android and I'd wager that most of us know Replicant. I think they are a staple of this type of fiction and generally speaking far cooler than clades. After all, Roy Batty is the best character evar! and Bishop isn't far behind. Data is cooler than beans. The Gunslinger (Westworld for the very young) is OMG awesome. Asomov's Giskard dang near invented the trope. The Terminator, who can live without Terminators? You could run a whole campaign with skin job Cylons and I won't even talk about what we could do with Six.

 

I can see where clades and androids overlap. Heck, that is why I themed everyone up above so that they felt distinct instead of a different brand white bread. I'll just quote it for easy reference.

 

I see clades and K5's replicated humans as just another type of replicant. In K5 the cat/fox ears and tails is explained as a way to make it harder for replicates to blend in should they choose to run off (although not all replicates have them). It's also a homage to Dominion and the Puma Twins.

 

K5 has cyberdroids, which are similar to Wire and BGC's boomers. They're 100% machine, with computer brains. It also has replicated lifeforms, which are grown (assembled?) via nano-factories in fluid-filled tanks. The former are used for construction, combat, basic maintenance, and hazardous environments. Replicates are also used for combat, security, as escorts, administrative assistants, bodyguards, and pleasure.

 

SA never had cyberdroids of any type that I recall... Ross used clades for all of that. I think bringing in megadynes and pitching clades makes SA too much like Silent Mobius, I also think that tossing catgirls et al removes some of the anime flavor. I realize this is Edsel's game but having played in two SA campaigns I have a strong personal image of the setting and am willing to argue its merits. I also think clades fill the "what is human" niche quite nicely, with a subset of that being the fight for equality.