Usable by other question

[paladin.oa]

If you want another character to use a multi-power and adjust it's slots as needed, how do you apply the usable by other advantage (UBO)? Do you apply it to the cost of the mult-power only, or do you apply it to multi-power and all slots, or just the slots themselves?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Usable by other question

 

5ER Page 108: you need to adjust both the pool and the slots, although, of course, if you have built the adjustment power with the right advantage you can do it simultaneously.

 

When you adjust a slot you need to adjust the cost of the poer, not just the cost of the slot.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Usable by other question

 

I think one of the things that questions like this highlight is that people do not have the concept that a power pool, or a multipower, or an elemental control are supposed, by concept, to be a single power.

 

If that was better established in our heads then it would be obvious that the advantage should apply to the whole power - not just an aspect of it. Unless of course you only want to apply the advantage to a limited aspect - would be a good way of having a multipower that, when someone else used it, was more limited in application...

 

 

Doc

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Usable by other question

 

I think one of the things that questions like this highlight is that people do not have the concept that a power pool, or a multipower, or an elemental control are supposed, by concept, to be a single power.

 

 

Doc

 

While I often use such a concept when building frameworks for characters, it is only a requirement for Elemental Controls.

 

A Multipower and to a lesser extent a VPP can also represent an array of otherwise unrelated abilities or actions.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Usable by other question

 

While I often use such a concept when building frameworks for characters' date=' it is only a [u']requirement[/u] for Elemental Controls.

 

I think it would be better if the first thought was that the framework power was a single power that the GM loosened on good reason than the current state where people see frameworks simply as a way to reduce the cost of their character.

 

But you are correct - the requirement is on the EC, and the mechanics follow that...

 

 

Doc

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Usable by other question

 

A Multipower and to a lesser extent a VPP can also represent an array of otherwise unrelated abilities or actions.

 

In which case the UBO question is more open to other answers, no?

 

If you have a completely unrelated set of powers in your multipower and the slots are the only ones that have UBO on them, does that mean that they can take that slot and use it but not switch between powers?

 

Does putting UBO on the reserve mean that you hand control over which power you currently have to hand to someone else?

 

If the reserve and several of the slots have UBO then you hand over control of switching the reserve between those slots that also have UBO?

 

Makes it more interesting, no?

 

 

Doc

 

[EDIT] PS: Obviously I have not gone and looked at the rulebook here, like what swotty Sean has!

[Sean Waters]

Re: Usable by other question

 

If the rule was simply: you can drain the pool, and that was the rule for all frameworks (and of course you can not use more power in a slot than you have in the pool) that would make things a lot easier to understand.

 

That would not stop individual slots being drained without affecting the pool or the other slots but would mean that if the pool was drained the slots automatically reduced with them.

 

I can not think of an example or a conceptually proper framework where that does not make sense.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Usable by other question

 

So, how does that look? You buy "Drain 4d6, Multipower Frameworks"? I suppose you can Drain powers based on SFX, but I always come back to wondering 'how do you drain a utility belt?'

[Sean Waters]

Re: Usable by other question

 

So' date=' how does that look? You buy "Drain 4d6, Multipower Frameworks"? I suppose you can Drain powers based on SFX, but I always come back to wondering 'how do you drain a utility belt?'[/quote']

 

You might also wonder why you'd build a utility belt as a MP, other than as a point saving exercise...do the other little pockets all lock when you open one? Why can you not take out your flare gun and acid spray and use them in a MPA at full effect?

 

As for the whole adjustment thing, I'm firmly in the camp that all adjustment powers should work against sfx, not powers: where is the sense in a drain that reduces the effect of an EB whether it is built as a bolt of magic, a bullet or a scream pitched at resonant frequencies?

[Alibear]

Re: Usable by other question

 

Of course you should buy your MP big enough to work one tool in each hand, one in the mouth and one in the a**!

[Sean Waters]

Re: Usable by other question

 

Of course you should buy your MP big enough to work one tool in each hand' date=' one in the mouth and one in the a**![/quote']

 

Quite right you could, and of course you don't need a prehensile a** either as most of them will be gadgets you could just hand to other team mates

 

Mind you people when building a Utility Belt tend not to think through the design implications in my experience. That is what causes the problems more often than not.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Usable by other question

 

I'm pretty sure I got the Utility Belt as a Multipower Framework from an official character, though I'll have to double check. I thought the whole idea with the utility belt was that if you take away the foci you take the entire multipower away. I suppose you could build all the powers and say each one is in a different pocket and to truly disarm you they enemy would basically have to strip you, but...

[Alibear]

Re: Usable by other question

 

Quite right you could, and of course you don't need a prehensile a** either as most of them will be gadgets you could just hand to other team mates

 

Mind you people when building a Utility Belt tend not to think through the design implications in my experience. That is what causes the problems more often than not.

 

 

Most problems in Hero stem from bad character design.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Usable by other question

 

I'm pretty sure I got the Utility Belt as a Multipower Framework from an official character' date=' though I'll have to double check. I thought the whole idea with the utility belt was that if you take away the foci you take the entire multipower away. I suppose you could build all the powers and say each one is in a different pocket and to truly disarm you they enemy would basically have to strip you, but...[/quote']

 

A utility belt would generally be a OIF: you can not get the whole thing away in combat (generally) BUT focussing on focii obfusticates the focus of the discussion: MultiPowers.

 

Anyway there is no such thing as an official build in Hero.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Usable by other question

 

If the rule was simply: you can drain the pool, and that was the rule for all frameworks (and of course you can not use more power in a slot than you have in the pool) that would make things a lot easier to understand.

 

That would not stop individual slots being drained without affecting the pool or the other slots but would mean that if the pool was drained the slots automatically reduced with them.

 

I can not think of an example or a conceptually proper framework where that does not make sense.

 

The typical 'Utility Belt' Framework (Multipower or VPP) is usually constructed with OIF on the Reserve/Pool and OAF on the individual abilities within. If one is taken or destroyed then the other abilities still remain.

 

So' date=' how does that look? You buy "Drain 4d6, Multipower Frameworks"? I suppose you can Drain powers based on SFX, but I always come back to wondering 'how do you drain a utility belt?'[/quote']

 

This is where GM and Player have to agree on the dividing line between using a 'Drain One - Drain All' (-1/4) Multipower Limitation vs. requiring an adjustment ability to have a minimum level of the Variable Effect Advantage.

 

When I worked on my JLA 350 project I started working on the Superman villain Parasite with this in mind. All the 'big gun' heroes had some version of the 'Drain One - All' Limitation. However, I did not use it on Batman's Utility Belt.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Usable by other question

 

The typical 'Utility Belt' Framework (Multipower or VPP) is usually constructed with OIF on the Reserve/Pool and OAF on the individual abilities within. If one is taken or destroyed then the other abilities still remain.

 

.............

 

What I do not understand here is how the utility belt can be a VPP or a MP and make conceptual sense. Given that each of the gadgets is a separate bit of kit, why can they not be used simultaneously? Sure you can drain/destroy a slot without draining/destroying the whole framework (that, after all, is just draining/destroying a slot) but what makes no sense to me is why you can not use the gadgets in the belt simultaneously: why can Fixa not swing across the city on a line, whilst wearing her gas mask and firing her flare gun up into the air?

 

If the items in the framework actually are seperate then - conceptually - they shouldn't be built as a framework where only one (or a small number) can be used simultaneously: that is just building to save points, not building to realise a concept.

 

It only (to me) makes sense to build something in that sort of framework if, for example, all the gadgets run off a common battery: they all have to be plugged in to the belt and draw current which is finite. Of course if that 'works' then you should be able to drain the battery and each slot would be less effetcive because it has less current to draw on.

 

You save points with a MP because you can only use some of the powers simultaneously. It is up tot he builder of the character to explain why that should be the case. Having an MP doesn't do it for you - and I'm contending - there is not an explanation (whatever the sfx) that fits the mechanics.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Usable by other question

 

What I do not understand here is how the utility belt can be a VPP or a MP and make conceptual sense. ...

 

Please see this recent Gadget Multipower-like VPP thread started by JmOz for a full explanation.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Usable by other question

 

....

 

It only (to me) makes sense to build something in that sort of framework if, for example, all the gadgets run off a common battery: they all have to be plugged in to the belt and draw current which is finite. Of course if that 'works' then you should be able to drain the battery and each slot would be less effetcive because it has less current to draw on.

 

 

Take a look at the example character Hardpoint on page 500 of 5er.

 

He's got a generic 60 Active Point Multipower with 'ultra slots' (everything is 'one at a time') all built as OIF. One slot has Burnout and another has Charges. It seems rather clear cut that a single slot can be taken out by whatever means (burnout, run out of charges as well as being the target of a negative adjustment ability) without affecting the others since an 'Affect One - Affect All' Limitation was not taken on the Multipower.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Usable by other question

 

Perhaps then many "utility belts" being built with a MP are done so for points/convenience sake, and not a pure translation of SFX and all possible implications there of.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Usable by other question

 

Hyperman - I think you missed the point where Sean went beyond the OP question into the theory of whether utility belts should be represented in a particular fashion...

 

 

That's how we know it is Sean and not some nefarious imposter...

 

 

Doc

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Usable by other question

 

If you want another character to use a multi-power and adjust it's slots as needed' date=' how do you apply the usable by other advantage (UBO)? Do you apply it to the cost of the mult-power only, or do you apply it to multi-power and all slots, or just the slots themselves?[/quote']

 

After re-reading this original post it seems pretty clear that:

1. Adjustment Powers (Drain/Aid) were not what was being asked about.
   
2. No one else addressed his question directly.
   

 

UBO could, with GM's permission, just be applied directly to the Multipower's Reserve and then apply to all slots within automatically.

 

Here's very a simple example of this:

 

50 Handy Dandy Swiss Superhero Multi-Tool: Multipower, 60-point reserve, all slots Usable By Other (+1/4) (75 Active Points); all slots OIF (Backpack Harness; -1/2)

8m 1) Basic Attack: Energy Blast 12d6 (60 Active Points) - END=6

8m 2) Basic Defense: Force Field (30 PD/30 ED) (60 Active Points) - END=6

8m 3) Basic Movement: Flight 30" (60 Active Points) - END=6

 

The idea is that the character could easily take off the harness and lend it to someone else on a regular basis if necessary.

 

If you remove the focus Limitation then the character could simply touch another willing character to bestow the multipower abilities to them. However, just as with the focus example, the 'owning' character would have to wait until the other character decided to give the abilities back.

 

*Yes, I know I am ignoring Line of Sight issues with UBO but the idea is to make the mechanics fit the sfx you want and the OP did not state a specific sfx in his question.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Usable by other question

 

Hyperman - I think you missed the point where Sean went beyond the OP question into the theory of whether utility belts should be represented in a particular fashion...

 

 

That's how we know it is Sean and not some nefarious imposter...

 

 

Doc

 

 

I didn't miss it at all.

 

I addressed Sean's derail questions as directly as possible.

I've also attempted to answer the OP's original question as well.

[paladin.oa]

Re: Usable by other question

 

Hyper-Man

 

That's exactly the question that I had. As for concept, this is a magical blade that has extra abilities that require end to use, and these abilities can only be used one at a time at the start, EXP might be used to make the pool bigger instead of adding more slots.

 

The blade is being made as either a summon or a follower, haven't decided which yet.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Usable by other question

 

Hyper-Man

 

That's exactly the question that I had. As for concept, this is a magical blade that has extra abilities that require end to use, and these abilities can only be used one at a time at the start, EXP might be used to make the pool bigger instead of adding more slots.

 

The blade is being made as either a summon or a follower, haven't decided which yet.

 

 

Cool.

 

Love to see the final writeup when you're done.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Usable by other question

 

Under the rules there is no reason a universal focus could not be simply given to and used by another character even without the UBO advantage.