eliminating the SPEED chart

[Bolorhaig]

Re: eliminating the SPEED chart

 

sigh

 

wat i'm asking for here, are thoughts and observations based on the assumption that i am going to eliminate the SPEED chart (or, if u don't like that language, make everyone a SPEED 4 more or less). i am not going to defend my decision to take it out of the game, and i will no longer be replying to suggestions otherwise. i'll ask, AGAIN, that a general debate about other topics be aired in other threads. thank you.

 

for example, one consideration that quickly occurred to me was aborting. in our normal champions game, you can't abort on a phase you've already acted. however, w/out segments in between their phases, is it fair to impose that restriction? i think not, so i'm leaning toward letting combatants abort even after they've acted in a phase, giving up their next action, but restricting them from aborting again until their regular next phase would have come up.

 

another consideration is haymakers and generally any power with a +1 segment activation time. i don't want them going off in the next phase - that could potentially create a situation where someone could land a haymaker and then make a normal attack in rapid succession. here, what i'm leaning toward is having haymakers land on DEX 1 of the phase in which they were started AND reducing the DEX rank of the attacker's next action by half. until that reduced DEX rank came up, they'd take the -5 DCV penalty for haymaker.

 

anyways, these are the kinds of things i'd like to discuss here. i appreciate any constructive comments to this effect.

 

bolorhaig

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: eliminating the SPEED chart

 

sigh

 

wat i'm asking for here, are thoughts and observations based on the assumption that i am going to eliminate the SPEED chart (or, if u don't like that language, make everyone a SPEED 4 more or less). i am not going to defend my decision to take it out of the game, and i will no longer be replying to suggestions otherwise. i'll ask, AGAIN, that a general debate about other topics be aired in other threads. thank you.

 

sigh

 

Given you're not telling us the specific problems you see the SPD chart causing, it's tough for us to assess the issues that may arise to frustrate your intent.

 

for example' date=' one consideration that quickly occurred to me was aborting. in our normal champions game, you can't abort on a phase you've already acted. however, w/out segments in between their phases, is it fair to impose that restriction? i think not, so i'm leaning toward letting combatants abort even after they've acted in a phase, giving up their next action, but restricting them from aborting again until their regular next phase would have come up.[/quote']

 

So if I take a really high DEX (or Lightning Reflexes but they're VASTLY overpriced), I can act in the first action (take my attack) at full power, and maximum OCV (or slap some skill levels to damage if my target's easy to hit anyway), the Abort as soon as someone else targets me to maximize my DCV and swap my attack for a Force Field or Force Wall multipower slot, or maybe Desolidification. These stay up until I get to act again in the third action, right? Good thing everyone moves at the same time- works great for me.

 

another consideration is haymakers and generally any power with a +1 segment activation time. i don't want them going off in the next phase - that could potentially create a situation where someone could land a haymaker and then make a normal attack in rapid succession. here' date=' what i'm leaning toward is having haymakers land on DEX 1 of the phase in which they were started AND reducing the DEX rank of the attacker's next action by half. until that reduced DEX rank came up, they'd take the -5 DCV penalty for haymaker.[/quote']

 

oooo...now I get the reverse opportunity. I'll buy my DEX limited to not bump me up in the combat order. Then I can move last and launch a Haymaker. I'll be at -5 DCV until someone targets me, at which time I'll Abort to turtle mode (see above). Thanks - that's four extra DC's and I don't need to spend all those points to act first.

 

Now, if you keep the SPD chart and just strand everyone at SPD 4, they'll at least have the option to delay (so they can avoid that Haymaker, or attack in the same segment after I attack so I don't have the opportunity to abort). But my experience is most characters move on their action, especially villains since it's tough to keep track of reserved phases when running a team as big as the whole PC group.

[Legendsmiths]

Re: eliminating the SPEED chart

 

I think you solution for aborting is fine, but gives characters more power than they currently have. You will probably see an increase in blocking by lower DEX characters, so they can gain the advantage, but where you will really get into trouble is high DEX guy who attacks on 20, aborts on 19 to a Dodge. Because of his high DEX he will most likely be unhittable, something that wouldn't be true if he had to wait for the next segment.

 

The haymaker is less of an issue -- it goes last, always.

 

I would only allow abort if you haven't yet acted, which if everyone is Speed 4 is pretty much how it goes.

 

How are you going to deal with "slower" characters like zombies or someone who's drugged?

[Bolorhaig]

Re: eliminating the SPEED chart

 

i won't respond to the 'school of resentment' tone of some of these replies and will instead attempt to cull what positive discussion points can be found in them.

 

i appreciate the request for a more specific outline of my goals. however, in my experience on public threads making a point-by-point defense of my reasons for wanting change is tantamount to inviting further argument about those reasons rather than about the change itself.

 

there are problems with my proposal when high DEX characters are concerned. however, they aren't so different, and are certainly no worse, than the problems when a SPD 4 goes up against a SPD 6 - the higher SPD character always has extra time to employ either offensive or defensive techniques. only one example is the period from segments 3-6. the SPD 4 goes on 3, if he didn't already abort because of an attack on 2, and the SPD 6 can abort his 4 b/c if he's +2 SPD on his foe he's very likely +DEX also. he can therefore be confident in moving first on 6. in these 3 seconds he's moved TWICE as fast as the SPD 4. this same problem occurs from 9-12. both are opportunities for the SPD 6 to grossly exploit the SPD differences and make effective attacks while maintaining defensive options.

 

one fix i've considered is having defensive maneuver bonuses last only until the aborting character's DEX would come up again on the following turn. this forces him to abort again next turn if he's attacked below his DEX rank, keeping him on the defensive. not sure what to do yet with defensive powers such as desolidification.

 

mud i very much appreciate your considerate response.

 

drugged or otherwise slowed characters are an interesting consideration also. perhaps this allows for the inclusion in the campaign of a new physical disadvantage? PHYS DISAD: acts at half speed (frequent, fully impairing) for 20 points or even (all the time) for 25 pts?

 

if defensive maneuver bonuses only last until the aborting character's next action would have come up (ie the aborted action he gave up), then the 'attack on DEX 30 and abort on 29' syndrome is less of an issue. his aborted action will pass, then the lower DEX foes can attack w/out having to deal w/the DCV mod or watever, forcing him to abort again or suck it (also described above).

 

as i mentioned, this idea still doesn't resolve defensive POWERS such as desolid or force field or force wall. the aborting character activates a defensive ability and sits there uncaring about his DCV. however, even that has its drawbacks. 1-having aborted his next action, he's an obvious, unmoving target open to 2 Phases of attacks, even with the defensive power up. 2-having erected force field or force wall, he's increased his defenses but is still target-able for haymaker which will land before he has the opportunity to act (abort) again.

 

desolidification is the real trouble spot here (i've played in campaigns that allow abort to TP but we don't unless the aborting character is Diving for Cover, but if TP was abort-able that would be an issue too). assuming no attackers can hurt him, the aborting character essentially renders himself immune to attack until his DEX rank 2 Phases hence. however, even that in itself carries a form of vulnerability. foes, seeing his tactic, can hold actions and wait for re-solid while the aborting character can't move (though he could maintain the desolid for a couple Phases and move away, but that's an option in regular SPD chart champs too).

 

as always, i welcome constructive (perhaps i shud add non-combative) comments.

 

bolorhaig

[Guest steamteck]

Re: eliminating the SPEED chart

 

A few years ago when I was coming out of a role playing famine and was restarting HERO gaming after about 6 month. I tried eliminating the speed chart and made everybody basically speed 4 and treated them like turns with recoveries every 4. Sounds like you've got a pretty solid handle on things.

 

Some observations I have from my experiment. mooks are more dangerous because they act as often as everybody else. Normally high speed characters are less effective and not as cool. You can run combat perfectly well this way. I allowed characters to "call forward" to dodge if they wanted even if they'd acted. It was interesting but not completely successful.

Once I got my HERO chops back under me, I reinstated the speed chart and realized how much more dynamic it made combat for us. my groups much more juiced by combat now. I will say I keep speeds low. By mutual agreement we round up but no more. That means the fastest speed in my game is currently a speed 5 speedster with DEX 37 while most heroes fall in the 3 zone.. The lower speeds keep the problems you mentioned to a minimum and still give the dynamics.

 

In any event let your players know you're working for a solution and play test your ideas with them and get feedback. if you've got a good group they'll be invaluable in helping out. Ask them how they want things to flow and give them options. It worked with my group and 1/2 of them pretty much shun the mechanics but they know how they want things to feel.

[NestorDRod]

Re: eliminating the SPEED chart

 

OK, found it.

 

It was part of an article I'd written eons ago about cinematic gaming using Hero. The section in question involved speeding up (sorry for the punnage) tracking speed in combat.

 

I've extracted the section into its own doc and attached it.

 

Hope it helps!

[Hyper-Man]

Re: eliminating the SPEED chart

 

OK, found it.

 

It was part of an article I'd written eons ago about cinematic gaming using Hero. The section in question involved speeding up (sorry for the punnage) tracking speed in combat.

 

I've extracted the section into its own doc and attached it.

 

Hope it helps!

 

On a related note, you might also want to take a look at this post from a recent thread.

[eternal_sage]

Re: eliminating the SPEED chart

 

when i first started with HERO i decided to simplify the SPD thing, so i went with a modified Shadowrun system (4th Ed, in case it was different in earlier editions. i played 2nd years uncounted ago and can't remember a darn thing about it other than it was fun). essentially i decoupled SPD from DEX and made DEX 2 cp/point (for fairness), then i made everyone SPD 1 base with all that that entails. a point of SPD still cost 10 cp. then it was pretty simple to do things the way that was more familiar for my other players (we were all picking it up cold, no one knew anything about it when we started). ultimately SPD 2 people would have an additional round after the SPD 1 people, etc etc. of course, it got kind of messy if you let someone get more than a couple of SPD higher than the others, and it could be argued that really fast characters should go first not last, which could be remedied with some sort of "two SPD higher than anyone else gets a free starting round" or something. however, as others have said, i generally found more problems in doing away with SPD than keeping it as normal with a very narrow band (my games tend more towards normal, with SPDs of 1, 2, and 3) mostly because of the myriad of interactions that can come up in HERO games.

 

however, i do think that a little more information on exactly where the bottleneck with SPD is occurring it may be helpful for us to be able to more accurately give you tips that actually address the situation that you are having. you asked and i answered! hope that maybe some of this rambling helps!

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: eliminating the SPEED chart

 

one fix i've considered is having defensive maneuver bonuses last only until the aborting character's DEX would come up again on the following turn. this forces him to abort again next turn if he's attacked below his DEX rank, keeping him on the defensive. not sure what to do yet with defensive powers such as desolidification.

 

as i mentioned, this idea still doesn't resolve defensive POWERS such as desolid or force field or force wall. the aborting character activates a defensive ability and sits there uncaring about his DCV. however, even that has its drawbacks. 1-having aborted his next action, he's an obvious, unmoving target open to 2 Phases of attacks, even with the defensive power up. 2-having erected force field or force wall, he's increased his defenses but is still target-able for haymaker which will land before he has the opportunity to act (abort) again.

 

Guess I'll slap a Force Field slot in my Attacks Multi. My guess is that an extra +30/+30 defenses, over and above my normal defenses, will take care of that extra 4d6 Haymaker damage nicely. And I still have my superior DCV until my next action comes up, I suppose.

 

Sure, you can Reserve. Now we roll off to see who goes first, so I still ahve a shot of attacking before you and being able to re-abort afterwards.

[Bolorhaig]

Re: eliminating the SPEED chart

 

once again ignoring responses from the 'school of resentment'...

 

while i very much appreciate the many constructive suggestions that greater organization might help fix my problem w/the SPD chart, plz believe me when i say that it won't. my issues are not specifically with the SPD chart itself - an understandable misconception since that is the thing i'm aiming at for a fix. rather, the problem has many layers and includes:

1-i've got 4 players (out of 7) who've never played champions before.

true, fixable by greater player knowledge of the rules and/or simply taking their descriptions of their actions and translate them myself into mechanics. neither of these fixes has worked.

2-my current SPD window for the team is 4-5-6. one of the SPD 6s and one of the SPD 5s are 2 of the inexperienced players, so not only are they sometimes uncertain about their actions but they're uncertain about their actions more often.

true, fixable by intervening when the player chose a character too complicated for his/her experience level. however, these are adults with pride and preferences of their own. one wanted to play the character w/the utility belt and martial arts, the other wanted to play the character with the multipurpose blasty rifle. some GMs might not mind intervening on that level with character creation, but i do.

3-SPD inflation. everybody has seen it. the team starts off as a certain set of SPDs, in our case 4, 4, 5, 5, 5, 6. the somebody figures they're character would be much better with a higher SPD. my game theory is, with a rules set as flexible and player driven as champions it's better to try and say yes than simply refuse even if i hate the idea. so one PC creeps up SPD by +1. then others want to consider it, or perhaps it was 1 of the SPD 4s and now there's only 1 SPD 4 on the team and that player is feeling left behind in terms of SPD and wants to increase. it goes on from there...

true, fixable again by heavy-handed intervention in spending exp. as stated above, this doesn't work for me. my group is playing pre-generated characters: the Champions (defender, nighthawk, sapphire, witchcraft, and ironclad) plus 1 of my creation. i used the Champions write-ups as guidelines but tweaked all of them some more some less. since the players had so little actual say in the creation of their characters, however, i feel it's doubly important to try not to restrict their exp spending so they retain some feeling of influence over their character development.

 

the above list should not be considered exhaustive. As some of you must also be, I'm now going on 3 decades of champions play and judging. i do not undertake lightly to do away w/the SPD chart - it is in my opinion the best and least offensive fix to my current problem. as did sage, i hope to re-instate the SPD chart in the future when my players are more comfortable w/the game and w/declaring and resolving their Phase with more haste.

 

steamteck's comments are much appreciated, as are all constructive posts here.

 

bolorhaig

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: eliminating the SPEED chart

 

while i very much appreciate the many constructive suggestions that greater organization might help fix my problem w/the SPD chart, plz believe me when i say that it won't. my issues are not specifically with the SPD chart itself - an understandable misconception since that is the thing i'm aiming at for a fix. rather, the problem has many layers and includes:

1-i've got 4 players (out of 7) who've never played champions before.

true, fixable by greater player knowledge of the rules and/or simply taking their descriptions of their actions and translate them myself into mechanics. neither of these fixes has worked.

 

To me, the only cure for this is time. The players simply need to grow into the rules. Changing the SPD chart just means they will be confused equally often, and the other players will be frustrated with the time between their equal numbers of actions.

 

With that many new players, maybe some games with just the newbies to help them get a handle on the rules may be in order. With one or two new players, we've found the "buddy system" works well - a more experienced player helps out the newbie with the rules issues. Maybe a scenario where the more experienced players' characters aren't available and those players spend some time assisting the newbies getting a grasp on the rules in general and their characters' options specifically might be of some benfit. Even if these are just "danger room/never happened" or similar scenarios - the object is to work with the rules and get some proficiency and confidence with them.

 

2-my current SPD window for the team is 4-5-6. one of the SPD 6s and one of the SPD 5s are 2 of the inexperienced players, so not only are they sometimes uncertain about their actions but they're uncertain about their actions more often.

true, fixable by intervening when the player chose a character too complicated for his/her experience level. however, these are adults with pride and preferences of their own. one wanted to play the character w/the utility belt and martial arts, the other wanted to play the character with the multipurpose blasty rifle. some GMs might not mind intervening on that level with character creation, but i do.

 

Again, fixable with experience in my view. 4 to 6 isn't that big a discrepancy to me.

 

3-SPD inflation. everybody has seen it. the team starts off as a certain set of SPDs, in our case 4, 4, 5, 5, 5, 6. the somebody figures they're character would be much better with a higher SPD. my game theory is, with a rules set as flexible and player driven as champions it's better to try and say yes than simply refuse even if i hate the idea. so one PC creeps up SPD by +1. then others want to consider it, or perhaps it was 1 of the SPD 4s and now there's only 1 SPD 4 on the team and that player is feeling left behind in terms of SPD and wants to increase. it goes on from there...

true, fixable again by heavy-handed intervention in spending exp. as stated above, this doesn't work for me. my group is playing pre-generated characters: the Champions (defender, nighthawk, sapphire, witchcraft, and ironclad) plus 1 of my creation. i used the Champions write-ups as guidelines but tweaked all of them some more some less. since the players had so little actual say in the creation of their characters, however, i feel it's doubly important to try not to restrict their exp spending so they retain some feeling of influence over their character development.

 

So telling the players "I consider your SPD's to be pretty much static - spend xp elsewhere" would be "heavy-handed intervention", but making everyone have the same SPD would not? If all the characters were 1 SPD apart and range 1-2-3, or 8-9-10, you're still going to have the issue that the new players need more time to evaluate their choices.

 

I'm confused as to how you think equalizing everyone's SPD will improve the situation. New players need more time to assess their options because they are less familiar with the game. That can be alleviated with experienced players assisting, or exacerbated if they are less helpful ("you bonehead - why didn't you use MP Slot #12"), but the olong term solution is that they need to grow into the rules and their characters - whether their SPD is all over the map or identical for all characters.

[Bolorhaig]

Re: eliminating the SPEED chart

 

I'm confused as to how you think equalizing everyone's SPD will improve the situation. New players need more time to assess their options because they are less familiar with the game. That can be alleviated with experienced players assisting, or exacerbated if they are less helpful ("you bonehead - why didn't you use MP Slot #12"), but the olong term solution is that they need to grow into the rules and their characters - whether their SPD is all over the map or identical for all characters.

 

this observation rather makes my argument for me. they do need more time to assess their options, and they are unfamiliar with their options. the SPD chart is 1-just another consideration for an already overwhelmed player and 2-forces an already overwhelmed player to decide/resolve his action more frequently. i'm talking about easing this situation by eliminating 1 very influential factor in the time it takes to resolve a turn of combat. again, perhaps i'll re-instate the SPD chart later. lol, perhaps my players will decide they like the game w/out it.

 

either way, champions is a wonderfully flexible system that allows the GM to conceive of major structural changes like this w/out serious disruption of game play.

 

bolorhaig

[Checkmate]

Re: eliminating the SPEED chart

 

I think what Hugh Nelson is saying is that it's really not going to speed things up. If it takes 40 actions to resolve the fight, the new players are still going to hold things up 40 times. It doesn't matter if it's in 10 Turns (4 Speed) or 7 Turns (6 Speed) the game is help up the same number of times.

 

Now if your mind is made up about the SPD chart (and it sound like it is) something else to consider is Recoveries. With everyone having a lower SPD characters get the phase 12 Recovery a lot more often, which can extend the fight.

 

I have first hand experience of this when I was in a game that kept SPD's generally pretty low. I was the team brick and I had the lowest DEF in the group, but I had the highest REC. I was down pretty low on STUN, was able to take a recovery on phase 12 then got the end of phase 12 recovery and was almost back to full STUN.

[aylwin13]

Re: eliminating the SPEED chart

 

I don't see it mentioned yet, so I'll link to the post where RDU Neil describes his initiative house rule. It drops the SPD chart, but still allows for differences in SPD. Our group has used it before, and it does seem to speed things up a bit. It definitely changes the feel of combat. See what you think.

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=581875&postcount=10

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: eliminating the SPEED chart

 

I think what Hugh Nelson is saying is that it's really not going to speed things up. If it takes 40 actions to resolve the fight, the new players are still going to hold things up 40 times. It doesn't matter if it's in 10 Turns (4 Speed) or 7 Turns (6 Speed) the game is help up the same number of times.

 

Now if your mind is made up about the SPD chart (and it sound like it is) something else to consider is Recoveries. With everyone having a lower SPD characters get the phase 12 Recovery a lot more often, which can extend the fight.

 

A very good point. The slower the speeds, the more recoveries and the longer the combat will take, so lowering Speeds may actually increase the number of times the inexperienced players slow down the combat.

 

Other than not being familiar with when they act, which is easily fixed by a GM with a chart, or by writing their phase numbers at the top of the character sheet, I don't see how the speed chart, of itself, slows down the game.

[Bolorhaig]

Re: eliminating the SPEED chart

 

it isn't precisely the SPD chart that slows down the game - plz note earlier that i mentioned the SPD chart was the FIX i'm looking at rather than the PROBLEM. (if i didn't mention that earlier, it was entirely implied and everyone should have read my thoughts in that regard!)

 

wat's slowing our game down is the frequency with which the most inexperienced players are acting (SPD 5 and SPD 6) combined with the length of their actions. someone mentioned something about 'if it takes 40 actions for a combat' etc etc - would that be 40 actions at SPD 4 or 40 actions at SPD 6? the former takes 10 turns (2 minutes game time) the latter takes only 6-2/3 turns (1 minute 20 seconds game time). the difference doesn't sound like much until you realize it's a drop of 33% (or an increase of 50% depending on where you start).

 

see the problem there? if the player with the SPD 6 character takes 5 min to resolve his every action, in only a 24 second (game time) combat he's taken an hour of our session. drop the same character to SPD 4 and in a 24 second combat he's only taken 48 minutes. again, doesn't sound like much but with 2 of them that's reducing combat time by almost half an hour, and if ur running 2-3 combats per session now you're talking about the saved minutes really adding up.

 

it could be argued that slowing down the higher SPD characters will actually lengthen combat as the team will be less effective as a whole. that's possible, but i consider it largely mitigated by an equal reduction of SPD on the villain side (incidentally, one of the things i've come up with for this is making all non-supers - that is those built on no points or 'agent style' points - act only on the odd numbered phases).

 

i want to enthusiastically thank aylwin for posting that other SPD discussion. some very salient points there.

 

one of my more experienced players did bring up the issue of more frequent recoveries for basically everyone with my proposal. we've decided to let it play out a couple sessions and see if it really makes that big a difference. my intuitive fix, if it becomes a problem, is lengthening the Turn from 4 Phases to 6. using the 40 action combat mentioned previously, this would reduce the total "free" recoveries from 10 to 6. i have concerns even with that - it is an intuitive fix after all and would undoubtedly have its own problems. again, it looks like we're going to let it play out a few sessions and see what happens.

 

bolorhaig

[Checkmate]

Re: eliminating the SPEED chart

 

Well good luck, and let us know how it works out.

 

My prediction is that combat is still going to take the same amount of time, but the experienced players will be less frustrated because it won't be wait, wait go; wait, wait go. It will be more of a wait, go, wait, go. Even if combats take the same amount of time, if the players are having more fun with it, I'd call it a win.

 

Now that that's settled I would seriously recommend you taking a heavier stance on characters. Remember it's your job to keep everyone happy, including yourself. Sometimes players will try things just to see if the GM will let them get away with it. You need to be especially careful when you have experienced players with inexperienced ones.

[denebkaitos]

Re: eliminating the SPEED chart

 

I have been running a 1950's campaign for about 6 months now. From the very beginning I eliminated the speed chart. Initially I played around with how many segments/phases made up the turn and settled on 6. This seemed to work best for what I was doing. The character get a recovery every 6 actions taken. The reason I did this had nothing to with the speeding the combat up. I chose this method so that everybody at the table got an equal amount of time doing cool stuff. This is one thing that really irritates me about the spd chart, so I eliminated it from my game. The players familiar with champions loved the change. One of the players started a fantasy hero game on alternate days and he has also adopted this method, but he instead chose 4 actions for every one recovery. Having adopted this method I will NEVER go back to the spd chart.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: eliminating the SPEED chart

 

See, that sounds horrible to me.